Hi Honey West

Re Sam:  I've pondered that from time to time, whether Sam was in fact Liz's real father (with name change).  There are some things that would tend to point in that direction.  The way that Sam says to Red in the hospital room, "I have to tell her"; "she deserves the truth" made me think it.  The main thing that stops me  though  is that Red, rather cryptically says to Liz, it wasn't his (Sam's) decision to make; implying that Red was the one who had the right to control "the truth" and other information to Liz; it was Red's tale to tell, or his decision as to whether anything was told to her.  And Red said to Sam, "I can't let you do that" when Sam said that Lizzie deserves the truth.   Not sure why Sam would not be empowered with that decision if he was her real father.   Unless the "truth" that they were both talking about was not the identity of her real father, but something else.  But since Red admitted to Liz that partly why he killed Sam was to keep him from revealing the name of her father, that seems to be what Sam and Red were talking about.

But I do think its a possibility, because I don't think we really know what we need to know in order to understand that whole hospital scene with Red and Sam.

I think Fitch was definitely a major figure in what happened way back when, but then he did not die the night of the fire (if Red is telling the truth).  (Then again nor did Sam.) I can't remember whether during any of their chats, Fitch asked Red about who Liz was or why she was important to Red or anything along those lines.  If Fitch was her real father then perhaps he would know…..so would not need to ask….but then again perhaps not!

But really at this point almost any option is possible because I don't think we've been given enough information to eliminate any scenario (except for Kirk)…..(I think)…LOL   

Last edited by lara1 (11/07/2016 8:05 pm)

LOL! , lara1 #2, I just keep throwing Fitch out there because I really liked him! There is that little died in the fire thing to mess up a lot of fun theories.

Yeah, I remember that "you gave her a real fire" comment and wondered about it. Especially when Red told Dom she had his temper. But we know that Dom was Katarina's father and Liz is her daughter. But I never thought of Sam as being a career criminal for some reason. Seems like Liz would have figured that one out a long time ago. But in any case Red told Liz that he "knew Sam all of your life and most of mine." So they go back a long time.

Danamee #5 - interesting thoughts.  Some also thought that the line that Red says in Cape May, "I was a different person then" kind of fits into that sort of theory.  Its when "Katarina" and Red are eating and she asks him if he has been there before, he replies "Yes.  A long time ago.  I was a different person then."  or some words to that effect  If I remember correctly, Katerina is about to say something and then the cop knocks on the door of the hotel, so that line of coversation is dropped.  

 Some say it was just a metaphorical line, that he was just different a long time ago, like many people are with age, some say it points to Red confirming that he is in fact a different person (i.e. new  identity).

I think Cape May is laden with clues, so I do think it was more than a casual conversational remark but whether it means he is literally someone else with a new identity is subject to interpretation.  But yes, a different person in that he has changed a lot as a person  so that he is "almost" a different person/identity, and that is how Red sees himself,is  very possible.

Last edited by lara1 (11/10/2016 10:06 am)

So, for my perhaps final bit of Who's Your Daddy? theorizing, this is how I think the big revelation could possibly go.

We know that Kirk ends up with Liz. Red offers to trade himself for her and gets taken by Kirk's men to the lab lair where Kirk is holding Liz. Kirk tells Liz that she is free to leave if she wants to. Kirk tells Red that he has a lot of questions for him. Liz either decides to stick around or maybe Kirk has double-crossed Red and had no intention of letting Liz go after all.

In any case Liz ends up being present while Kirk interrogates Red. They inject him with so-called truth serum drugs to loosen him up. In reality these drugs don't make a person just start spitting out the truth, they act like alcohol would after a few too many. The person is more likely to say things, but they are still not necessarily the truth. This is why these drug-induced statements are not valid in a court of law. But still, it makes for good storytelling. Anyway, we already have seen a clip where Kirk asks "Are you her father!" We really don't know what Red will end up saying or not saying, so right now we are still free to make things up.

And in this scenario, Liz is listening, too. I kind of think she would be inclined to do that, given a choice, because it might literally be her last chance to hear the "truth" because Kirk might be the only one who could get it out of Red and he's not in great shape himself. So Red gives an answer and Liz hears it. Whatever it is, Red, if he survives and he likely will, is not going to remember later what he said. My research shows that these drugs that are used act like the sedation you get for some medical and dental procedures where you aren't completely out but you don't remember the procedure afterwards. So Liz will get her answer, but Red won't remember giving it to her.

The question then will become what will Liz do with this information? She probably won't tell Red that she knows. That would give us a one-time great scene between them, but it's better if we get to watch how the knowledge plays out over the course of maybe the rest of the series. It could give her some leverage that she will need to use later on. And who would she tell anyway? Various people know the answer already, so maybe she could confide in one of them? Or would she tell Ressler or even Cooper?

My bet would be that she would tell Dembe. Dembe told her about the Bethesda flat, after all. He thinks she should be told the truth and has said so many times. Plus at the end of The Caretaker Dembe told Red that if the Universe wants her to know the truth, she will find out, regardless of what Red thinks or wants. And in the end, Liz could even hold this over Red's head, as in, you said some very interesting things when Kirk was questioning you back there. But she won't tell him what he said. She will finally have some secrets to work with. Like Jodi Walker said in her 4.07 recap last week: PLAY THE GAME, LIZZIE!

So I still don't know the answer to the question, but there are some possible scenarios of how it could work out, whatever it is. Anyway, we will know tonight, I guess! This is just a possible way it could play, as I see it.

Edited for typos! LOL!

Last edited by Honey West (11/10/2016 2:39 pm)

Well, Danamee, that is all just an idea. I never saw any evidence that Liz was there at the same time as Red was being interrogated. We know she was there at some point, though. And the way Kirk keeps telling her that things are "her choice", to save him or not, to stay or go, etc. makes me think that he might tell her she is free to go, but if I was Liz, and knowing the answers was so all-consuming important to me, I would probably stay. Maybe she would think she might be able to help Red, maybe she would be in hiding. But I keep thinking that if they say that Liz gets the answers then she must be present in order for that to happen because I doubt that Kirk would call her on the phone later and tell her what Red said. Or maybe he would. LOL! One thing I am sure of is that whatever they come up with it will be far better than anything I can think of! And there will be a twist we didn't see coming and it will all have been part of some plan of Red's in the end.

My current theory of everything.

Raymond is either genetically engineered or genetically enhanced in some way: he can withstand huge amounts of pain and mind-altering drugs. Perhaps he was designed to be an elite spy or super soldier by American interests (Maybe one with Cabal connections?) or maybe he was designed by Russians and stolen by the Americans (Cabal?). Raymond was not the only product of this program, which I call Program X, but perhaps he is one of the most successful ones because he survived to adulthood. And it may be that his days are limited because of the genetic enhancements, plus he knows that he will only live to age 65 or so (or whatever), so that is his main motivation to "do it now" rather than bide his time. Also, Lizze is now an adult.

Program X (or a similar one) produced KR ("We can recognize each other" -- paraphrase from Cape May) and maybe some of the embros/children were stolen and came into the Major's hands, of which Tom is one, a subsequent generation. Tom's mother may have donated some of her own genetic material or may have just carried Tom. In any case, Raymond and Tom know a certain amount about each other's true backgrounds but not the whole story. Tom doesn't not know the whole story about Liz.

Back to Raymond. He grew up as part of a family and had a somewhat "normal" upbringing (unlike Tom) and went into the Navy. He graduated, married (perhaps Naomi's sister, some "normal" woman?), and had a "normal" daughter. At some point, he was recruited into intelligence. One of the assignments was KR, maybe to steal her for a time so that one of her eggs could be implanted with some of Raymond's DNA, as well as additional genes, to create the next generation of enhanced agents. Thus, although Raymond is one of the fathers, he isn't the father ("Are you my father?' "It's complicated"). Raymond brought Lizzie back to the US, had her memories wiped, and placed her with Sam. 

"Something" political happened, and the Cabal (or Project X employees) started eating their own, and Raymond's family was murdered. Maybe Naomi's husband was also killed in the same time period.

At that point, Raymond was deeply depressed and married Naomi, maybe after a one weekend stand, and adopted her daughter, Jennifer. A year or so later, either Raymond went deep cover and became Red ("Everything about me is a lie") or he went rogue from his supporters and became Red the super criminal.
And maybe that happened fire night. Lizzie "killed" Raymond and Red was born that night.

Or -- as some have speculated in the past -- Raymond Reddington and Agent X were two different people. Agent X became Raymond Reddington (via plastic surgery) after Fire Night.

He divorced Naomi, who was happy to leave. Before he divorced Naomi, he probably had Lizzie staying at their house (maybe while her memories were being wiped). That's how Naomi knows all about Lizzie.

I also think Red fell deeply in love with KR. Lizzie represents the one piece of her he still has.

Ballerina girl is KR. Bubble girl is Lizzie.

I'll also throw in at this point that Alan Fitch could have been Raymond's uncle, which is why he knew him so well. Perhaps Mr. Kaplan is Fitch's estranged sister, and she went to Red's side because she held a grudge against the Cabal.

To the best of Red's knowledge, KR killed herself, but he finds out later that she didn't, Part of the reason Red may have saved Kirk was to draw off KR, who wants Red dead for whatever reason.

And I realize there are a few holes in here, mainly the timing, but these ideas help explain Red's motivation.




 

Last edited by IowaWatcher (11/12/2016 1:49 pm)

You're right, Lana. Whatever Red whispered might be something else. I like the "another child" idea.

Yeah, I'm sure it's more complicated than KR and Red had a baby.

Honey West - all good questions!  At least we know 2 things:  that Liz was with the Rostovs until the age of 4, so we know she was taken at around the time of the fire and not as an infant.  At least we got that sorted!  I was thinking if Red placed Liz in Kaplan's arms as an infant, maybe she was the caretaker, or a caretaker at the summer palace.  But what confused me about that is that the woman there (forget her name) said she had taken over from her mother 9 years ago, I think.  and I got the impression that Kate had been working for Red for more than 9 years.  But we don't know - I just got the impression that she helped look after Liz until she went to Sam - so not sure she would have still been at the summer palace until only 9 years ago.   but who knows?

The second thing that we got (I think) is that it was Red who took Liz away.  Although he never answered Konstantin on that point.  It kind of fits in with the fire night fight.  Yet Konstantin said that he came home one day and his wife and child were gone.  That got me thinking......unless Katarina left immediately after Red and Liz, she either willingly went with Red (though that is not what the fire argument tells us) or perhaps some really wild thing like both Katarina and Liz were taken by someone else with evil intentions and Red "saved" Liz - was that his Hobson's choice?   That doesn't fit entirely either!  oh well, time to cook dinner!

Last edited by lara1 (11/12/2016 5:59 pm)

Thanks for your kind words, HoneyWest. Sleep does help!
As for the questions the reveal spawned, yes . . . one answer did generate a gazillion new questions.
I need to rewatch the first episode again.
 

Iowa Watcher, I was just thinking that same thing - I need to watch the Pilot again, too.

lara1, it was a lot of things that we had sort of discussed on the old board. Now we have a little more information for putting some of those ideas together. But there's still a lot we don't know. The EPs have said when they come back in January that they are going in a new exciting direction, now that the Kirk story arc is over. Maybe we will be getting back to the Map of Doom and what is coming up with the 2017 thing? They really haven't talked much about that stuff for a long time.