The Blacklist Refugees » Episode 5.11 - Abraham Stern - Discussion Page

Tuxie400 · 1/24/2018 8:00 pm

lara1 - I know there have been many, many shots though blinds. I think they tend to mirror the shuttered closet doors. These are vertical metal bars. I have posted a couple photos on my tumblr:

https://irondestinypolice.tumblr.com/

Colleen · 1/24/2018 8:57 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
lara1 - I've always thought of the rabbits and hats in connection with magic, or illusion. I also thought the idea of magic went very well with the idea of memory manipulation. There are several references to Red performing magic in the series - two by Aram that I can recall. And we've had smoke (fire) and mirrors for five seasons now.

Speaking of memory manipulation, a "giant bunny rabbit" - or the suggestion of one - was recently discovered in the footage of the Liz's tangent Christmas tree memory. Take a look at Tessa's Criminally Sane tumblr.

Hi Everyone!

Didn't discover there was no new Blacklist episode tonight until about 45 minutes ago, when my trusty TV antenna was perfectly in place. On the upside, I have a chance to catch up on all the excellent posts here

Don't know why I didn't remember this until now, but the CIA actually employed a magician to train its MK Ultra agents - so the agents could drug people's drinks with LSD or other experimental truth serums. Can't make this up. Fellow was named John Mulholland.

Tuxie400 · 1/24/2018 10:09 pm

Colleen - Great minds think alike. lara1 and I have been discussing Mulholland on Thrushes. He wrote two manuals to train spies in magicians' craft.

Tuxie400 · 1/24/2018 10:10 pm

Brittany - What you say about a parallel to something Red did is likely. I even wonder if the suitcase bones aren't the body that set off his chain of events.

lara1 · 1/24/2018 11:51 pm

I re-watched Ian Garvey tonight, so I thought I'd answer some of the questions some of you raised in the last few days.

At the farmhouse, Red definitely saw Garvey. In fact he was shooting at him and Navarro until he jumped in the car and Dembe drove off. So, if Red knows who Garvey is, he should definitely have recognized him.

the knife belonged to Garvey - in the apt, its Garvey who takes out the knife and proceeds to garrott Tom on the same side and the same place as Zamani did. Garvey then sticks the knife into a table. Tom then grabs it and slashes two of the guys in his bid to escape. It looks like the knife gets lost in the scuffle, kind of reminded me a bit of how the knife got away from KR when she scuffled with the guy in the kitchen in Requiem.

Garvey describes Red's power as "legendary" as Red had described Stern's father....

I noted a lot of my observations at the time, but here are a few new ones -

Colleen - you mentioned somewhere I think about how Scotch reappears in the series. It looks to me like Tom grabs two bottles of Scotch from the bar in the farmhouse, to make the molotov cocktails he throws into the cars.

I think the upside down doll was representing a mirror of sorts as it was the camera angle. Anyone else notice the doll had red hair?

The car at the farmhouse - I previously thought it was like the old car under the tarp in the garage in Cape May, which it was like. But I kept thinking, it reminds me of something else - well, to me it looks a lot like the vintage black car that Aram loans to Liz and Tom for their wedding and which becomes their getaway car. There are other parallels to the church scene, not least of which is the white structure. Also, there is a camera shot of Red from the back as he walks out of the house and its very similar to when he enters the church in Solomonand is walking up the aisle towards Liz. Both shots were done in a kind of slow motion. And, by the way, I noticed other visual effects like that as I've been looking for them.

The whole siege at the farmhouse was very much like Cape May, which was in turn like the church wedding scene. How many white farmhouse like structures have we now seen? And Red putting the suitcase in the old car while Dembe drove off reminded me of how he put a suitcase or similar in the back of the car in Cape May/

Weirdly, Red sewing up Tom's back reminded me of Kaplan sewing up the bunny.....

Tom gives Red the slip when they are parked outside a NexaCo gas station - isn't that the gas of Kirk's that they were after in Season 3?

Lastly, for now, the car registration of the old black Ford was 12/17. That's the fifth car registration I've seen so far this season that had December as the month......

Last edited by lara1 (1/24/2018 11:55 pm)

Tuxie400 · 1/25/2018 12:07 am

The Damascus knife first comes into play in The Kilgannon Corp. in the barn where Garvey initially takes Lena, Pete and Tom. In that episode, it's Navarro who uses it to cut poor Lena's zip ties after Garvey evilly tells her she can go.Why it's in his possession there, I don't know. But it's definitely the same knife Garvey uses on Tom in 5.08.

I agree with lara1 that Red saw Garvey and Navarro in the shootout by the car. But I'm not sure they could see Red and Tom very well because of the vehicles Tom had set on fire with the Molotov cocktails.

Tuxie400 · 1/25/2018 12:13 am

A lot of people don't understand why Red hasn't hunted Garvey down and recovered the suitcase by now. But I think the only person Red didn't want finding out about that skeleton was Liz. As long as she was in a coma, there was no threat. Then when she decided to leave for parts unknown, he again thought there was no threat. But now that she's back and hunting down Tom's killers, the threat is magnified again.

As for Garvey, I think he didn't know how to contact Reddington. Red can be a very hard man to find, if you are not plugged to his network.

lara1 · 1/25/2018 12:16 am

Thanks Tuxie, I hadn't realized it was the same knife in Kilgannon.

I was thinking, since Tom grabbed the knife, I wonder if that sort of covered up Garvey's prints on the knife.

Yes it was difficult to know how much Garvey and Navarro were able to see. But come to think of it, I'm not sure it matters

lara1 · 1/25/2018 12:20 am

Tuxie400 wrote:
A lot of people don't understand why Red hasn't hunted Garvey down and recovered the suitcase by now. But I think the only person Red didn't want finding out about that skeleton was Liz. As long as she was in a coma, there was no threat. Then when she decided to leave for parts unknown, he again thought there was no threat. But now that she's back and hunting down Tom's killers, the threat is magnified again.

As for Garvey, I think he didn't know how to contact Reddington. Red can be a very hard man to find, if you are not plugged to his network.

Tuxie400 - I agree with this, but I am surprised he did not want to exact revenge on who did this. He certainly didn't take kindly to everyone involved in Anslo and he certainly was miffed with Luther Braxton wasn't he? He could have solved the suitcase issue and got his revenge, as well as silence Garvey. I still don't get it, I just keep thinking that if he knows Garvey, he is worried about something bigger that will come to play if Garvey is harmed. But maybe not, its just the only answer I can think of....

Eastcoast · 1/25/2018 2:19 am

Lara1, that's what I was thinking about. He went after everyone in the past who has hurt Liz. He stewed Stanley
For hurting her and He killed the guy who beat her up in the parking lot!

I also think he could see Garvey but not too sure he knew who he was. The guys at fire night were very thin. He seams to have put on a beer belly to say the least.

I didnt see red hair. My tv showed a black haired doll? I even paused it. I will go back and look again when I get time.

1/25/2018 5:34 am

Agreed Tuxie re: Red not seeming worried about anyone but Liz getting The bones. I’ve noticed that this season. Red doesn’t seem threatened by the world at large about it. Is Garvey over estimating the impact or Red underestimating?

Last edited by Brittany (1/25/2018 5:34 am)

lara1 · 1/25/2018 9:58 am

East coast - the doll definitely had red hair. Light red, not flame red, but red with a red bow. Kind of like kr’s hair. Def not black. wondered if Garvey sniffing the doll represented he had a thing for KR way back when, whether or not it was unrequited. But then the doll was filmed upside down so who knows. Maybe just weird.

Brittany - I think part of the reason red isn’t concerned about the case is that no one (well now a few people) knows about it - it’s a secret. Kaplan used that word too. He rejected Dembe’s idea to call in back up because he didn’t want anyone else knowing about it. And I agree, it only harms Liz. But yeah what on earth could it be when Garvey has no idea who Liz even was.

Last edited by lara1 (1/25/2018 9:59 am)

1/25/2018 11:47 am

I can't decide if I think the person died a long time ago or if they died shortly before Red came into Liz's life. And Red seems more concerned about Liz getting the suitcase than the perception of threat to himself. The Jons say that they suitcase is dangerous and damaging to Red, but that's not necessarily how Red behaves (I guess it would depend on what it damages/endangers means, like his relationship with Liz, and not necessarily a physical danger to him).

Maybe it's something like Luther Braxton--he didn't know Liz was the kid from the night of the fire until he started thinking about it and Red had come back to save Liz. If there is a connection to the night of the fire, maybe Garvey didn't realize Liz was the kid until he started to dig in more????

lara1 · 1/25/2018 12:35 pm

I wonder if Red doesn't consider the bones dangerous to him because he thinks the only other person/people who know about them are no longer a threat - dead or perhaps incarcerated. Maybe he doesn't know that Garvey survived whatever it was he survived. And, notwithstanding that Red saw Garvey at the farmhouse, he could look quite different now so perhaps in that quick exchange, Red did not know.

I'm also pondering the 'eyeball"". if it really is next gen tech, as in, tracking device, I go back to either government or high spy involvement, something like Scottie's Grey Matters hidden agency. A real twist would be - what if Navarro was deep undercover? Garvey seems so low tech, he doesn't seem the sort to fit out things with next gen anything LOL

On the bones, I tend to think its someone from long ago, Nik or Pete mentioned they had degraded due to exposure to air, and that Kaplan buried them more recently. Of course, they still could be more recent. I don't know how long a skeleton needs to be exposed to the air in order for it to "degrade". I guess we'll find out soon.

Tuxie400 · 1/25/2018 12:54 pm

Eastcoast - The doll in the Garvey episode has very red hair on both my TV screen and my computer monitor. The one on fire night has black hair.

1/25/2018 2:39 pm

lara1 wrote:
On the bones, I tend to think its someone from long ago, Nik or Pete mentioned they had degraded due to exposure to air, and that Kaplan buried them more recently. Of course, they still could be more recent. I don't know how long a skeleton needs to be exposed to the air in order for it to "degrade". I guess we'll find out soon.

Here is something I found on decomposition:
" DISPOSAL
Decomposition is well under way by the time burial or cremation occurs. However, the exact rate of decomposition depends to some extent on environmental conditions.

Decomposition in the air is twice as fast as when the body is under water and four times as fast as underground. A corpse left above ground is rapidly broken down by insects and animals, including bluebottles and carrion fly maggots, beetles, ants and wasps. A corpse can become a moving mass of maggots within days, even hours in hot climates. Approximately 150,000 maggots can be found on an exposed corpse. Left above ground the the main body cavities burst open and the tissues become liquefied after about a month or so.

When buried six feet down, without a coffin, in ordinary soil, an unembalmed adult normally takes eight to twelve years to decompose to a skeleton. However if placed in a coffin the body can take many years longer, depending on type of wood used. For example a solid oak coffin will hughly slow down the process. I believe there was a case where a body was exhumed in an oak coffin and it was found to still be in a state of decomposition some 50 years later. Of course a lot also depends on how deep the coffin is buried, the state of the soil and the local water table. "

Last edited by Brittany (1/25/2018 2:41 pm)

lara1 · 1/25/2018 5:35 pm

Brittany - er....thanks (I think) LOL. I also think that for the skeleton it depends on climate, ie dry or humid.. (Where is Kaplan's expertise when we need her? LOL)

1/25/2018 6:18 pm

Lol, Lara. It is definitely an interesting topic. I’m not totally sure what it might mean for the bones condition but it depends on where the body was kept after death. So the person could have died basically at any point in the timeline. 😉

lara1 · 1/25/2018 11:20 pm

Well I finally got to re-watch the episode tonight. What a pure delight from start to finish! I'll add my notes tomorrow, but a couple of things I didn't notice the first time around:

-the dry cleaning/laundry truck - the name of the company is TIME Laundry Service
-Morgan shouts Merry Christmas! to Red when its clear the vacuum gizmo is working at pulling in the money
-Detective Singleton has a photo of a dog on the shelf above his desk. Looks like a German Shepherd - or as we used to all them, "Police dogs". I wonder if that was a little joke they added.
-there was a cut crystal Scotch glass in Navarro's apartment
-Calvin Coolidge was on the $100M note - those names with C again

Several references to "buried treasure" starting in the opening scene and ending with the last - the hat was referred to as buried treasure. What if the suitcase was Red's buried treasure?

-the guy who came to interpret the pennies carried a briefcase and the whole thing reminded me of when Leonard Caul showed Liz the fulcrum in the flat.

-Did anyone else think that one of the voices yelling through the door when Liz was in Navarro's apt sounded just like Ressler (I'm not saying it was Ressler at all, I've been noting unusual visual and auditory effects in the episodes). I had noticed the the first time around but it really jumped out at me this time. Or, maybe I need to get my hearing checked!

Last edited by lara1 (1/25/2018 11:22 pm)

Tuxie400 · 1/26/2018 10:42 am

lara1 wrote:
Did anyone else think that one of the voices yelling through the door when Liz was in Navarro's apt sounded just like Ressler (I'm not saying it was Ressler at all, I've been noting unusual visual and auditory effects in the episodes). I had noticed the the first time around but it really jumped out at me this time. Or, maybe I need to get my hearing checked!

I didn't notice the "Ressler" voice, but it might have been his. It would be a symbol of Liz's conscience since Ressler 's the one who's always tried to stop her from doing questionable things.

I think the only other thing I noticed from your list was the Merry Christmas from Morgan.