The Blacklist Refugees » Season 5 Fall/Winter Hiatus Discussions

Tuxie400 · 12/13/2017 7:50 pm

Brittany - The idea that the DNA might have come back with more than one result is an interesting idea. Only time will tell.

lara1 · 12/13/2017 11:18 pm

Tuxie400 - thanks for the info. And it still doesn't add up for me, because if Tom was lured to Boston in order to frame him, why would the gun with Gina's prints be in his go box. Still never added up to me.

Brittany - what makes you think that Red might be holding KR prisoner? I'm just curious what your thoughts are, why he would be holding her prisoner, and what clues might point to this? I don't see it myself, but there is a kind of potential parallel with Red wanting to send Kate to the island, but he had to remove Kate as she was destroying his life and everyone in his orbit.

12/14/2017 7:02 am

Things that make me suspect Red is hiding KR (whether against her will or not, though the prisoner thing is very dark and would cause a lot of conflict between Red and Liz):
1) Kaplan not knowing about Dom. These are two people whose perspective on KR would be the least objective along with Red's. While both say they want to make sure Liz is safe, I think neither of them would believe KR would harm her daughter, while Red is very aware of the dangers from KR's past that get close to Liz. Kaplan tends to blame Red for the danger in Liz's life (and blamed him in the past), as does Dom. I think both people have pieces of information, but not the whole story. Combined, they would have it all.
2) The island access material being kept at Dom's place. Kate knew about the island, but didn't know how to access the box for the items because she didn't know about Dom. It could be that Red wasn't willing for them to interact unless he knew he had to flee and never come back (like telling Dom to find Liz if he doesn't come back). There could have been a million other options for places Kaplan wouldn't know about for him to keep the box, but he kept it there.
3) Dom never says KR is dead, but talks about being lost or gone. Red alludes to him always having a reason to walk out the door that was very cryptic and didn't seem to me like he just meant Liz.
4) Red's willingness to let Kate go to the island, which is supposed to be his own escape hatch of last resort. He knew how close they were, plus Kaplan refers to it as a prison. She could have meant that she'd never be able to leave with risking arrest or death, but it could be functioning as an actual prison.
5) There is so much parallel between Liz and Red, and it made think back to early season 2. Liz learned Tom was a fraud and he had betrayed her. She wants to kill him, but in the end can't do it and holds him hostage, using him for information. I think Red could have also held KR to find out what she knew in order to make himself as powerful as he is. I think Red would have also wanted to keep her from Liz. If she really loved her like she claimed in Requiem, then she would want to get back to her. Perhaps try to set up a new life and go back after a few years of what she believed to be safety Red has shown he will do anything to protect Liz and keeping her mother from her may be one of those things.

I'm also willing to consider that KR is dead, in the suitcase, and Red killed her to keep her from Liz. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the right one. I tend to think things depend on what the show runners believe is the realistic lifespan of the show. And I occasionally wonder if they have even decided who is in the box yet and laugh at our speculations when they don't even know for sure. lol

lara1 · 12/14/2017 10:26 am

Brittany - thanks for that, interesting thoughts. I don't know. I think that Dom was kept a secret (from everyone) as he is integral to the back story that no one can find out about, that he himself was in some kind of danger and a danger to Liz, and I think part of that is his relationship with Red - whatever it is - that must be kept a secret. I think Red kept the island box there because it was the safest place, because no one knows about Dom, and he trusted Dom to keep the box safe.

I think Red sending Kate to the island was an absolute fail safe, meaning it was his last, emergency solution to get her to stop when he had run out of all other options. And I think the writers put it there to show character growth for Red - he admitted his mistake at trying to kill her and was not going to kill her. I think it would be a prison in the sense that Kaplan would in effect be exiled there forever.

I know people have mentioned the thing about Dom never saying KR is dead, but I don't put much into that per se because people do tend to talk in terms of having "lost" people and Red does draw a distinct parallel to his situation with Dom in the shed, implying that they have now "lost" someone close to them. But its possible. And it might be because she is only presumed dead, ie her body was never found. So speaking in terms of "losing" her seems actually more accurate because she was never officialy "dead" - she was lost in the ocean. And interesting that Red says to Dom when digging up the box, that "we lost Masha once, I won't lose her again" or something like that. If KR isn't dead, I don't think Dom knows that. Still, it could be writer's clue - ie Dom doesn't know but its written that way as a clue to us.

Red seems to not know what ultimately became of KR, and I thought that is in part why he wanted the Rostova file. I do agree with the parallels with Liz/Tom and the prisoner in the ship thing is interesting. And lots of references of people being thrown in prison and into secret "holes" where no one knows they are there and they will never make it out.

So, its an interesting thought and anything is possible.

Tuxie400 · 12/14/2017 11:48 am

Brittany - With all the parallels between Liz and Red, I wouldn't be surprised to learn Red had kept Katarina as a prisoner at some point and tortured her for secrets. But I would be surprised to find out he is still keeping her prisoner after all these years.

12/14/2017 12:01 pm

Lara- I agree that it's possible Dom could have a bigger role in the backstory. I've wondered if he was previously an agent or asset of one of the governments himself. It seems like KR grew up in the US at least for a while because of her Bronx Zoo trunk and the game she had, so perhaps they fled the Soviet Union or were assigned to live in the US. As for the Rostova file, I wasn't sure if it was about KR or if it was a file on Masha Rostova. I've thought it was how Red became suspicious of Kirk because of something he saw in the file.

12/14/2017 12:02 pm

Tuxie- I have also thought that perhaps she got away at some point and that was why Red had to come into Liz's life. Or maybe he held her and then she committed suicide or he killed her. I could see that happening.

Last edited by Brittany (12/14/2017 12:02 pm)

Tuxie400 · 12/14/2017 12:20 pm

Sometimes I think this show is too cryptic. I doubt we will ever learn the truth about the Viktor Fokin murder or the Rostova file. But those things sure kept us wondering about the show, didn't they?

Eastcoast · 12/14/2017 12:29 pm

Dom did say, 'As far as I'm concerned, you killed my entire family!' I took it that he thinks she is dead.

I still think she was one of the memories of Liz she had in the closet was at Sam's House. I think that is why we heard 'her name is Elizabeth'.
I think she came for her and they wouldn't let her have her back because At that point Liz had her memory changed and didn't even know her. Red knew she would never just leave her behind without coming for her at some point. I think that is why KR would have said her child is being raised by someone else. I don't think she intended for that to happen. I think she trusted Sam to take care of her for a while. When he made the statement to Kate that KR had called and wasn't coming back, I think he just told Kate that.

That could be considered a Hobson choice on Reds part because he knew that any of them in her life at that point could be a danger to her. She was a child, but she saw and heard things in that closet that people didn't want her to tell. Braxton knew the "stories" of the house fire and girl. Could be why we were shown Dr. K. removing the memory of the young man and why he was doing it.

well, off to real life!

12/14/2017 12:45 pm

Tuxie- I think they have been so cryptic that we assume things that have no deeper meaning MUST mean something and we run wild with them. Lol

East coast- that’s an interesting idea, that part of memories from the fire aren’t actually from the fire but placed in that setting and that she was already with Sam when that conversation occurred.

lara1 · 12/14/2017 6:56 pm

Tuxie400 - I think the Fokin murder was a plot device introduced to make the audience doubt both Tom and Red. Who was Tom really, could Liz trust him, then again should she trust Red? And with Gina, cemented with us again the complicated web of lies appearing as truth and vice versa where things often aren't what they seem and its hard to tell what is what and what is really happening.....and provided an overall piece to the puzzle that enabled Liz to ultimately link the Blacklisters. Maybe just another piece of the puzzle, nothing more

lara1 · 12/14/2017 7:17 pm

Eastcoast - from time to time I've thought that the fire memories are of more than one scene, jumbled up.

I think from what we've seen, KR did go to fire house looking for Liz and extracted Liz from the fire. But there could have been a second scene where she came for Liz at Sam's. I don't know though. But it would feed into a theory I had at one point, that Sam was really her biological father. It would interestingly tie in with Red's statement about the suitcase - that its a secret, not a lie. Sam was already considered to be Liz's father. The secret would therefore be a twist to that, hence not a lie. But I doubt that is the case..

Which does bring me back though to how KR and Red new Sam. KR trusted him enough to leave her daughter with him. The only thing I've come up with doesn't tie in with the grifter aspect. Back to square one.....

Eastcoast · 12/15/2017 3:10 am

Yes. I think there are at least 2 times KR came for her that she has in her head. We know the one that was the night of the fire but for someone to say 'her name is Elizabeth' another has to be after her memory was changed.
I think if KR thought that Red died in the fire and Liz didn't know who she was then that could make her want to go into the ocean. To be honest though, I am not really convinced she thought he was dead. When she spoke to Kate she sounded like she had talked with him about sending her to Sam's.
I am wondering if he was at Sam's for a while at some point? I keep thinking about the music box and wondered if he had been there?

I thought about it and I don't really think Sam is her father because of Red killing him. That seams to be a big No in his book. He loved Sam and didn't really like Tom and didn't kill him.

lara1 · 12/15/2017 11:46 am

Eastcoast- good point about KR's call to Kate. Although i think its implied she spoke to Red, i think she only said that Sam was a good friend to both of them. The other thing is, what if "Reddington" wasnt the man KR loved? And Liz's father was supposed to have died in the fire, whether because she shot him or not. And who was the "bad man" the night of the fire.

Yes agree about Sam. There was something else that turned me away from that idea but cant recall it now. But i do think Sam was family to Red, somehow

But that thought got me thinking about the suitcase. Its a secret not a lie so what if it is something like that - ie something obvious on the face of it that has a double meaning.

lara1 · 12/15/2017 6:47 pm

Interesting little fact I stumbled upon today. In Russian, the word "Dom" means house/home and from what I gather, more in the sense of hearth/home. As in, my home, vs house in the sense of a building. More the sense of it as a home.

Thought it was interesting given all of the emphasis on "home" in the series, particularly as it relates to Red. Does it mean that when Red goes to visit Dom, he is going "home" in a way....is Dom really his father.....interesting to think about and of course, full disclosure, its one of my thoughts - that Dom is Red's father. Of course none of this means anything at all if Dom is not Russian. But since many of us thought he was, I pass along this for info.

Also on Reddit, a user mentioned that "Dom" is short for a Russian surname. Would be interesting if "Dom" is referring to that character's surname, not first name. Of course, I find this uber-interesting because one of my thoughts is, what if "Raymond" refers to Red's surname (that's if he is not "Reddington") So an interesting parallel for me. Of course again if Dom is not Russian, this means nothing.....

Last edited by lara1 (12/15/2017 6:51 pm)

lara1 · 12/15/2017 7:29 pm

OK, so I'm curious, so following on from my comment #135 above, I dug into Russian names a little bit. This might have been done on the other board, but, anyway, (unless I'm wrong or found wrong info), it is common Russian practice to have three names: first name, second name - the Patronymic - which is a masculine or feminine variant of the father's first name - and surname. Apparently it is also common practice to refer to someone by their first and second names, and I've even read that a close friend may be referred to by the second name.

Of course don't believe everything you read on the Internet, LOL, but I did cross check this across a couple of different sources. Which is interesting because of course we don't know the patronymic of either Katarina or Masha, which could of course point to their respective fathers. And it got me thinking - Liz was named Elizabeth Scott - was that a nod to her father's name. Either Red's real name or her "real" father's name. Who knows.
Oh and there are a bunch of Russian surnames which begin with "Dom" - e.g., DOMASEVICH, etc.

Last edited by lara1 (12/15/2017 7:30 pm)

Tuxie400 · 12/15/2017 9:13 pm

lara1 - It's interesting that you found that Russian meaning for Dom as home. I found the same thing yesterday as a meaning for Dom in Serbian and other Slavic languages.

lara1 · 12/19/2017 12:11 am

Just wanted to take a moment to wish everyone in the group Happy Holidays!!

12/19/2017 8:04 am

Same to you, Lara.

On a side note, I’ve started a bullet journal and In doing so I think I may have joined a crafty, organized cult. Someone send Red in to save me. 😂

lara1 · 12/23/2017 5:52 pm

Tuxie400 - saw a "Christmas" photo with Red from Alistair Pitt episode, I somehow completely missed that Christmas reference. I note that the tree is behind him and there are 3 votive like candles on the table in front of him. Made me think of the candles in the vigil photo in the Reddington file in the pilot though I can't recall if there are three.

We've also seen multiple scenes with Liz, KR and Red that featured candles, particularly votive candles. And somewhere Liz talks about her like of candles. And the birthday party scene in Redemption with the birthday candles. All of the candle references even made me wonder at one point if Liz accidentally started the Christmas fire with candles, though I think it unlikely. But what the candles represent, I don't know.