The Blacklist Refugees » The Suitcase

Honey West · 11/21/2017 4:29 pm

Brittany wrote:
Within this train of thought, I've wondered if Kaplan was being kept in the dark about it. Perhaps Red told her that this was the real KR, that he had to kill her to protect Liz, and justified it enough to convince Kaplan to keep her working with him because her priority was Elizabeth's well-being. Keeping Kaplan from knowing about Dom is something else that sticks out in my mind. Whether she believed KR was dead or knew she was in hiding, Red couldn't risk her knowing about Dom, either because he didn't want them comparing notes and whoever was in the dark learning the truth or because he was afraid that Kaplan may insist that Liz should be with Dom or would tell Dom how to find Liz. I'm hoping this is explored more this season.

Yet, in the end, after Red took the box he told Dom that if things went wrong that Dom should go and find Liz.

And also, I got the idea towards the end that Kaplan had switched to Agnes being the one most in need of her protection, rather than Liz, because Liz had obviously gone totally to Red's side.

Honey West · 11/21/2017 4:36 pm

Tatiana wrote:
Tuxie400 wrote:
Tatiana - After reading what you wrote, I see that the Captain Jack Sparrow idea also goes along with what Liz was originally told about Katarina by OREA Agent Masik:

"She's a myth. Tall tales at night over vodka shots. Probably an amalgamation of a half-dozen unknown female Soviet operatives - the Pinko Mata Hari."

What if there were not only several Katarina Rostovas but several agents playing the part of Raymond Reddington too? I'm even starting to wonder if Sam didn't play the role of Raymond Reddington part of the time.

It also reminds me of the conspiracy theory that there were two Lee Harvey Oswalds.

Exactly! It's a theory I've had and posted to this and the previous site well before Edgar Legatt. For some reason it always makes me laugh. Because it would be so obvious... the 'amalgamation' of the fiercest criminal. It would explain a lot about this person 'Red'

Yes to all of that. It might also explain how Red could possibly have packed all,of the things he has supposedly done into such a short time period. He may have had several "Fred"s doing some of that work for him and as him.

It could very well be that Red is really the real Raymond Reddington, but that he is not necessarily the only Raymond Reddington. And Reddington could have been the US intelligence version of the KGB's Katarina Rostova.

I still think Red is deep undercover on a long term mission or assignment. That's been my pet theory for a very long time. The details, well, they can change, but the core mission is the same. What he does protects the balance of global power, behind the scenes and in front of the scenes.

11/21/2017 4:44 pm

Honey West #162- I think she still cared about Liz's well-being. If she has wanted to ensure Agnes's safety and didn't trust Liz to do it, then I think she could have abducted Agnes easily enough. She still ensured that Liz "got the truth" even though Liz got out of the car. As for the Dom thing, I think Red's concerns about him going after Liz were probably more so when she was a child than as an adult. Dom clearly respects Red's position enough to stay away, even if he hates it. He doesn't seem intimated by Red and Red appears to respect him enough that I can't imagine he'd harm him. I've often wondered if Dom was at the house the night of the fire, possibly with KR helping look for Liz. He may have even been the one to get Red out of the house when he was on fire. That may just be my own head canon because I love their relationship so much, but I'd like to think they share some sort of bond over that.

lara1 · 12/08/2017 8:37 pm

Have been thinking about our discussions on the suitcase again. Have seen some thoughts here and there around the web about the case and the address tag. Questions about the address, which we talked about at the time too. What is the address? What does it mean?

I have come to think its less about the address as such (I'm not sure that as a location, it has any particular meaning) but maybe just the name of the address, as associated with Liz. What I mean is, the address is less about the particular address (it could be just about anywhere in DC where Tom/Liz lived most recently) then it is about the name: Allison street. As in a derivative of Alison, as in Alice, as in Alice in Wonderland, which we discussed here before. So - another thing linking Liz to Alice in Wonderland - maybe?

So back to other stuff about the tag and is the address itself a meaningful location. Here are some questions:

- was the tag buried with the suitcase or put on when Kaplan dug it up?
-if it was put on the suitcase when it was buried, was the address added at that time, or when it was dug up?
-the answers to these questions may point to whether the address is Liz/tom's current address or a prior one

Here are m thoughts -

I think the luggage tag was buried with the case. I think I said this at the time the episode aired - as I think that the tag has that furry sort of water stain on it. Why was a luggage tag buried with the suitcase? It may be as simple as, the tag came with the case, which is not that unusual. But the important thing for me, which I think I've mentioned before, is that the tag dates when the case was buried. Because it has a line for email address. Which to me lines up with my idea that the case was only buried a few years ago, maybe as recently as near to the time Red surrendered to the FBI. But certainly not back in 1989. So, in summary, I think the case, with its tag with the email line, were buried, probably within the last 10 years, and more likely, within the last five or so, which also aligns it with the reason Red came back into Liz's life.

So - the address. Was that added when buried or later? I think it was added when Kate dug it up. My reasons for thinking this: I think that since the tag had water stains on it, any ink lettering on it would have shown some signs of feathering from moisture. I don't think it shows that at all. I'm also not sure why Kaplan would have added a DC address for Liz at the time it was buried. Firstly, as far as we know, I don't believe Liz ever lived in DC prior to her being transferred from NY to her DC job. And as far as we know, when Tom and Liz moved to DC for her job, they lived at an address different from what is on the tag, as Tuxie400 has pointed out. I don't think they lived at a prior address. So any address for Liz at the time of burying the suitcase would not have been an Allison Street address.

So - if the suitcase was buried with a blank address tag, that means that Kaplan added the address when she dug up the suitcase and put it in the locker. So, is it Tom/Liz's most recent address? I would have to think yes, since they live in an apt in DC somewhere. Why would Kaplan have put another address on it? Since the suitcase was so critical to Kaplan, her failsafe measure, I'm not sure why would risk it all by putting another address on there, in case the plan went awry. The suitcase would always find its way to Liz no matter what happened.

I personally don't think the street address is meant to point to anything specific about the location or even that its meant to be a real location. TBL has used addresses before which are based on real places but made up insofar as their authenticity goes. I think they chose Allison for its connection to Alice but not the location.

I don't think it represents anything from Liz's past, for the reasons above. But I don't rule it out completely, anything is possible. And I don't think its the location of fire house - which was described as being "downtown" which Allison Street is not. And the townhouses in the Requiem seemed to me to be more modern day in construction. The townhouses on the real Allison Street seem to be more period in detail.

Of course, any home address used is part of the overall plotting of addresses seen in the series - the Bethesda flat, tom and Liz's prior home (was it 12th street?), the Virginia address in the 1980s for Reddington, the house near to where Red disappeared on Christmas Eve, in Maryland, and Takoma park.
I wonder if taken together they form a triangle? Not that we would know what that means, LOL.

any thoughts?

Last edited by lara1 (12/08/2017 8:40 pm)

12/08/2017 8:59 pm

I had questioned if the address was relevant when they showed it back in the season 4 finale but Tom is never shown as finding the address unusual or seeking it out so I’m not totally sure. It would be interesting if it was the house where the fire took place or perhaps where Oleander can be found. I had assumed the luggage tag was attached to the suitcase at burial and Kaplan filled it out when she dug it up. She could have intended for Liz to seek out answers at that address. She seemed to believe her death was imminent thus put it somewhere that could be opened if used for too long. Or it could be that she wanted to make sure it got to Liz if opened. Though if someone had opened the suitcase and found bones, they would have involved the authorities. I’m fine if it was just their current address or if it was meant to answer more questions. The latter would be intriguing!

Last edited by Brittany (12/08/2017 9:05 pm)

lara1 · 12/08/2017 9:09 pm

Britanny - I tend to agree with you and good point about Tom not appearing to think anything unusual about the address. I also don't remember whether in Requiem it showed Kate traveling with the suitcase, or just putting it in the locker. I think the tag was on the case when it went in the locker (which of course makes sense) but whether we are shown beforehand, I can't recall.

I do think though that if the case had an unusual address, Tom would have looked into it, particularly given the mystery around Dennison, and then, Oleander. And I assume that is how Garvey found the Keen's address. Just my thoughts.

12/08/2017 9:11 pm

I agree about that being how Garvey found them, which combined with Tom’s lack of interest in it makes me figure it’s nothing important. But I can definitely see the appeal of the idea of it being something important.

lara1 · 12/08/2017 9:14 pm

Yeah you know the more I think about it, the more I think it was a clue as to when the case was buried. The immediate thought would be, long ago, like around the time of Red's disappearance. but the tag tells us otherwise.

Also, there has been no focus on the tag whatsoever since that one close up when Tom retrieved the case. That's why I think its a clue to its age.

But I agree other ideas are intriguing too. Personally, I just fall back on the "Alice" link to Liz. But one never knows.

Last edited by lara1 (12/08/2017 9:15 pm)

lara1 · 12/08/2017 9:23 pm

One of the things I did mention at the time was that the handwriting looked almost childlike, like the deliberate penmanship of an older child. Which mapped to another idea at the time, that it was the "original" Elizabeths' case. But I think it was just slow, deliberate, neat writing to make it very clear. Ad I think it was just the real Keen address. Or was it? haha.

12/08/2017 11:17 pm

Another thing that I've considered is the location of the K on the tree and that it seemed slightly higher than Kaplan's natural, comfortable reach would have been to carve it there, so it could be that she didn't carve it herself or the tree has grown slightly since she carved it. The skeletonization of the bones also doesn't tell us anything, as apparently bodies can become skeleton anytime from three weeks to several years in temperate climate based on burial conditions.

Garvey's seeming lack of interest of knowledge of who Liz was still strikes me as important. He simply guessed she was Tom's wife. I assume he got their address off of the suitcase and perhaps thought Tom had transferred the bones into one of Liz's suitcases. He doesn't seem to know/care that she's FBI or the one whose ID was used for the CODIS search nor does he appear to have any knowledge of connection to Reddington. He had a golden ticket to getting Red to do absolutely anything and he had no clue. That also makes me think that the DNA results were a direct result that Garvey was able to link to Red and not a familial result that connected directly to Liz.

The intention of giving Liz the suitcase was to give her the truth about why he came into her life, which she hoped would get Liz to walk away from him. Kaplan had no idea Liz would learn Red was her father prior to obtaining the suitcase, so it has to be something that would have impacted her deeply no matter what, which I believe would have only been something tied to him keeping her mother from her (which she described in season 3 as unforgivable). The DNA results were something that Tom was able to figure out pretty quickly and explained a lot to him. Garvey was also able to tie the results to Red fairly easily (and perhaps had been looking for them to show up). They are connected to KR and something Red did to her, but Red doesn't seem to be concerned in the beginning about any extreme danger coming around because of the bones, just that Liz doesn't get the suitcase. He seemed confused as to why Nik would get killed over it. Red's focus later on (other than keeping Tom alive because of someone wanting the suitcase to get to him and willing to hurt Tom to get it) was that it would cause Liz considerable pain to learn the identity. He called it a secret, not a lie, which was interesting. Tom also doesn't seem afraid of Red when he tells him that he knows the truth and that Liz will too. He has Liz meet him at the apartment and he hides the bones in Agnes's room, which he had to know Red would look at first and sends Agnes away from the apartment. If he was genuinely afraid and needing to run from Red, I think he would have insisted on Liz and Agnes meeting him somewhere else and him telling her while they got into hiding. The only danger seemed to arise from Garvey's ruthlessness at getting to Red via the suitcase body.

lara1 · 12/09/2017 12:46 am

Brittany #171 - I haven't made any progress on who might be in the suitcase, largely because any ideas I have pre-date when CODIS was set up. If you think about it, the most likely suspects for who the bones are, disappeared probably before the database was set up - real Red, another daughter of Red, older sister of Liz, ballerina girl, KR. I've still not been able to tell if things were added to CODIS retroactively, perhaps in order to establish a critical base in the new database, or because of some later crime that connected them. so it could be no one, or any of them....

I agree with your thoughts on Garvey. Whatever was in the case did not link it directly to Liz, at least not in an obvious way, But I think it may link back to her in some way, that was what Tom was thinking and why he needed to tell her right away. Though it doesn't seem to be something that would put Liz in danger. (in and of itself)

But yes Garvey just wants the case for its power over Red. Whatever you imagine it to be, he said to Tom, its much bigger than that.

Last edited by lara1 (12/09/2017 12:48 am)

Tuxie400 · 12/09/2017 10:34 am

lara1 - I hadn't thought about the Allison St. address having a link to Alice in Wonderland. Great observation! I tend to think the tag address is the Keen's current address because otherwise it makes no sense that Garvey could have found the apartment in the fall finale. I also agree that had it been some other address Tom would have checked it out. (But the scene where Red and Dembe carries the bodies out has the number 525 on the building.)The tag's line for an email address had totally escaped my memory. I remember getting email through Prodigy way back in 1993. Through an online search, I discovered email became more mainstream to the masses by 1995 with the Prodigy and AOL services.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (12/09/2017 1:22 pm)

lara1 · 12/09/2017 4:14 pm

Tuxie400 - that is interesting about the number on the house. Someone else mentioned that the front of the apartment building also looked completely different from when Red and Liz sat outside her apt back in Season 4. I don't think Liz and Tom moved after that scene with Kaplan in the apartment, the inside looked the same. So that is odd too (MP for buildings, addresses too??). It could be that in real life, they were not able to secure permits to film outside the same building again. though I would think that unusual - an interior shoot being an issue, yes, but an outdoor shoot? Unless the building (in real life) just preferred they didn't film there again. Still, they could have covered up the 525 or anything else that made it obvious. You could say that had the two eps been separated by more time and distance, people wouldn't have noticed. So - maybe the multiple versions of the same building is a hint somehow.....I don't know.

anyway on the email, yeah email was mainstream by the late nineties and maybe even the mid nineties. So the tag reference could be dated as far back as that. I don't think any earlier though, as accepted wide practice. Just my two cents! LOL

Last edited by lara1 (12/09/2017 4:15 pm)

lara1 · 12/09/2017 6:04 pm

You know, another thing just occurred to me re the "multiple apartments". And that is that after the original apt (12th street?) in DC, every apartment that Liz had on her own or that Tom/Liz had together, seems very similar to me. I think they did live in at least 2 apts, didn't they? I think at least that the apt Liz had on her own and her next apt with Tom were different? Yet that brick wall seemed to follow them around, LOL. And the general footprint seemed the same also. Ditto the decor colors though that I would just put down to their tastes in wall paint color. haha

Tuxie400 · 12/09/2017 6:06 pm

lara1 - Multiple personalities for buildings? LOL I personally don't remember what the outside of that apartment looked like back in Season 4. I do know there wasn't any difference between the one where Tom chased the diorama woman outside and what it looked like in the episode with Liz and Reddington outside in the car. There are several shows that shoot in NYC. Maybe the space in front of the Season 4 building wasn't available because some other show was shooting there or perhaps because some sort of construction was going on. Some neighborhoods may have blacklisted The Blacklist because its explosions have blown out apartment windows. I remember Bokenkamp talking about the show being sued because of the blown out windows. In any case, most casual viewers wouldn't remember what the front of that building looked like.

lara1 · 12/09/2017 6:17 pm

Tuxie400 - I hadn't heard that about windows. Although it generally makes sense that they just couldn't film in the same location for whatever reason.

What i was thinking of with the MP with buildings (not literally haha) was, like the parallels with Season 1 in particular, where the same scenes are being played out somewhat differently and with different results, as well as the repeated dialogue across different characters, in different scenarios, does the same address get "repeated" but in a different way. In other words,part of the broader "multiple" landscape. I hope that makes sense LOL. Although its probably one of the stranger things that have popped into my head recently!

Last edited by lara1 (12/09/2017 6:18 pm)

Tuxie400 · 12/09/2017 7:03 pm

lara1 - I get your thinking with the broader multiple landscape.

12/09/2017 8:51 pm

I will confess to constantly being confused about the layout of their latest apartment because it felt like a similar set up to the apartment Liz got when she was pregnant. I always expected the kitchen to be to the right when they walked in the door.

lara1 · 12/09/2017 8:56 pm

Brittany - yes, exactly. And the exposed brick in both apts. its like the kitchen and living room have been swapped out. Or maybe everyone is just fond of brick walls! LOL

Eastcoast · 12/10/2017 3:36 am

The 525 on the building was very Large! It was as if they wanted to be sure we saw that.