lara1 wrote:

Tuxie400 wrote:

I don't think Red made up anything he said to Tom. I think Dembe was just disappointed Red being put in this spot didn't go ahead and tell Tom and Liz the truth. Red is still very far from being able to do that.

tuxie400 - it could be.  I need to re-watch what Dembe said to him.  Whether he said, you're not telling him the truth, or something more like, you need to tell him the truth.  Slightly different meaning.  But yes, I agree, it could be what you said.

 
He said you need to stop lying to them.

lara1 wrote:

Tuxie400 - I like the S&G version of the song better also.  Yet somehow, I think the version that was played was heavier and a bit darker so maybe more fitting what was happening.  As soon as that music started, I knew it wasn't going to end well.  Reminded me of how the music started with Liz in the ambulance.

 
I thought it sounded more like Leonard Cohen.

But I just listen to Disturbed's version and that’s the one they used. Cohen did it as a recited poem.

Last edited by Honey West (11/16/2017 1:31 am)

I think Dembe was getting a little exasperated with Red, why can’t you just tell her the truth, and Red can only say, I don’t know, I don’t know. For a guy with so many answers, why doesn’t he know that one?

Tom looking at the dna report, which was conveniently labeled in large type DNA Report, had an interesting reaction. He read it, thought a second or two and checked it again before looking like he might have thought it was so simple and obvious and explained Everything. All the pieces fell into place and it was obvious that he didn’t feel it was going to hurt Liz to know about it. Meet me Right Now. What on earth could be so harmful to Red, that would give Garvey such power over him, yet Tom has no problem with telling Liz all about it. This bones question better have a real good answer when we find out someday.

My current feeling is that the bones were ID'd as Raymond Reddington, making it obvious to Garvey that the bones would be most valuable to Red, that is, the person going around calling himself Raymond Reddington.

More and more I just can't shake the idea that Katarina was being hunted, was aware that the Cabal made a deal with Raymond Reddington to leave him alone (not kill him) because of what he held against them (the deal Alan Fitch references) so she decided to kill RR and assume his persona. She can then take advantage of RR's power, influence, and money to watch over her daughter and not be killed by the people who were chasing her. As to why she ("Red") decided to enter Liz's life now, well, perhaps there is something scheduled to go down that she felt she had to act on. So she enlists the help of the FBI to gradually knock out her adversaries to help stack the cards in her favor when whatever it is goes down.

The bones were kept, well hidden, in case they were ever needed.

Obviously this little post isn't the place to hash out how all of that ("Redarina Theory") might have worked because it certainly is complicated but I just can't shake that theory from my mind. It's complicated but in a way, it's so darn simple. (Yes, of course there are still many holes in that theory probably best saved for our Redarina discussion thread)

Whether Tom put ALL of that together when looking at the DNA envelope, I can't say. I wouldn't think so. At the very least, seeing the ID as "Raymond Reddington" would be shocking enough for him.

Last edited by JackPow (11/16/2017 9:21 am)

Dembe did say, "You're still lying to him (Tom) and to Elizabeth. Until you stop lying, there will be no peace."

But I still stand by my earlier statement. I don't think Red was lying about being at their wedding first and seeing how happy Liz was. I wonder if the lying isn't more about the bones or letting Liz believe he's her father.

What we do know for a fact is that Red does lie to Liz, even though it's mostly by omission.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (11/16/2017 10:56 am)

JackPow - So in your theory, Katarina didn't become Red until at least 1994? I had never thought about it being that late in the timeline. Interesting!

Well its the morning after and the shockwaves are still reverberating!  what an excellent, intense episode.  I don't think I'll forget about anything in this episode anytime soon.  Its been a long time since I got this emotionally involved with an episode of a TV show.  The acting especially between Ryan and Megan was superb, it really got to me.

I think it was the right thing to remove Tom although I secretly hoped that something would come to light to make him disappear, like Kirk.  But I think they did it well - they sort of made him into a more tragic heroic figure and he died protecting Liz.  And we did know once and for all that he really really did love Liz.  I do wonder whether Red knew or didn't know that the many times he tried to get Liz to leave Tom.  Red seemed to know that Liz loved Tom but maybe never recognized it was mutual.

Anyway I will miss Ryan.  I did meet him once last year when his film debuted at the Tribeca Film Festival.  He seems a really nice, affable guy.  Very engaged with fans.  Obviously talented.  Will look forward to whatever he does next.

In the meantime, I am interested in where they will now take the show.  They have a clean slate so to speak.  Maybe that's what all the parallels to Season 1 were telegraphing - they have reset the Tom storyline back to Zamani, but this time with a different outcome.  I look forward to seeing what is next.

Tuxie #111 - I think i need to spend some time reviewing our blacklist timeline to try to piece it together more. For now, I'm not too sure of how the details went down.

Oh my gosh! I have to run and get my kids from school! I forgot they had a half day today. Tomorrow's NYC headline: "Mother abandons children at school, blames The Blacklist fall finale" 

Tuxie400 wrote:

Dembe did say, "You're still lying to him (Tom) and to Elizabeth. Until you stop lying, there will be no peace."

But I still stand by my earlier statement. I don't think Red was lying about being at their wedding first and seeing how happy Liz was. I wonder if the lying isn't more about the bones or letting Liz believe he's her father.

What we do know for a fact is that Red does lie to Liz, even though it's mostly by omission.

Tuxie400 - I'm torn between whether or not he was lying.  The wedding flashback I felt was Tom's, not Red's, the way it was in black and white like the others.  And Red rolled it into one of his long stories.  And it didn't make sense to me, his reasons for not killing Tom.  Because he then sent Zamani to basically garrote (sp?) Tom and leave him for dead.  But maybe Red changed his mind later on.

But I do think it reads as more interesting if Red was in fact at the wedding.  And its a parallel to later on, Red at the back of the church watching Agnes' baptism.  And I do think it bolsters Rederina for the reasons you stated.

I guess the bigger question that Dembe's comment raised for me was, how much lying?  Tom seemed to think Red lied to Liz all of the time.  But Dembe knows the truth.

IowaWatcher wrote:

You're welcome! I recognized "Invictus" immediately because I had to study it in high school lit, but I thought others might have to google it. It certainly fits, along with the awesome music. That's my best contribution at the moment.

My latest thought: the bones belong to either the "real" RR or the "real" Elizabeth/Misha, and I know the latter is really reaching. As a writer, having the bones be the "real" RR makes the most sense to me.
As for the rest of it, I'll keep reading and not think too deeply about anything. The show runners seem to be doing a reset, so everything we think we know might be wrong.

Switching topics: I'd like to see the "Tom Bond" character re-configured a bit and used as the male lead in a updated "Mission Impossible" series. I think Ryan would do a fantastic job in something like that.

I agree. Ryan has developed some superb acting skills on TBL. I'll blame his success on two factors. 1. His own will and ability to learn and execute acting nuances while performing his given lines - anyone can read lines - but only a few can make his work memorable. Ryan did exactly that. 2. James Spader. Working with a consummate pro like Spader has to rub off. I think Ryan learned so much from James - but so did Megan, who was barely a passable actress when the show debuted. Her growth had the greatest up curve of any of the cast.