The Blacklist Refugees » The Suitcase

Tuxie400 · 10/31/2017 6:25 pm

Honey West wrote:
You know, eastcoast, you got me thinking. Suppose the suitcase contents aren’t Katarina, but provide definite proof that she is still alive. And Kate knows that and has been helping to keep her secret all this time. Maybe she was apologizing to Katarina for being forced to expose her? In any case maybe one of the reasons she agreed to work for Red in the first place was to keep an eye on him for Katarina, and help keep,him from getting too close to outing her?

Honey West - I've seen a couple of other fans on Tumblr have your idea that the contents would prove Katarina is still alive. How would the body of another person prove she's alive? I'm not understanding this idea. The suitcase was sent to Liz to show her the truth about why RR entered her life and end her relationship with Red.. Liz wouldn't think the body was Katarina's unless it matched KR's dental records or DNA, would she?

Here's my new wild idea. What if the bones are a maternal DNA match to Liz, but they don't match records for Katarina? Perhaps it turns out Katarina was never really Liz's biological mother. I got this idea because of the fake pregnancy in The Harem (Emma in the beginning jewel heist). At first I thought it was just a nod to Bokenkamp's Taking Lives movie, which featured a long con involving Angelina Jolie having a fake pregnancy. But this idea keeps emerging in my thoughts as possible foreshadowing. Perhaps Liz was born out of a situation similar to the babies in The Cypress Agency. Just last season we had snake poisoner Hightower keeping his wife a prisoner to produce a child, and it was reminiscent of The Cypress Agency episode.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (10/31/2017 6:34 pm)

lara1 · 10/31/2017 7:40 pm

So I was thinking about the suitcase, Kaplan and the "reveal" of Red as Liz's father, and that comment by JB that Kaplan could not have known that Red would be revealed as father (true) so that has thrown the whole suitcase scenario into something bigger and maybe more dangerous than Kaplan anticipated, if I'm understanding Jb's comments correctly. Why would that be?

This made no sense to me, but in re-watching Season 5 over the past two nights, something occurred to me anew. When Tom first reappears in the apt (in that scene that ends with the weird flash forward) I got the impression that the "news" he had for Liz was about the suitcase. And then when Liz gives Tom the news about Red being her father, Tom is either surprised or confused - take your pick - and then just makes up his "news" for Liz while hiding the suitcase. I have to conclude that he was going to tell Liz about the suitcase or else why would he then have to make up some "news" of his and push away the suitcase?

We've all been assuming, (well many of us have been, both here and elsewhere) that Tom got the suitcase and then decided to look into them before giving them to Liz. Well I wonder now if that was the case at all. Suppose he was going to deliver them to Liz right away (not entirely surprising since he made no attempt at hiding them, he brought them back to their apartment). And that is how the "reveal" of Red as Liz's father upended the apple cart. Now, Tom has gone on a hunt for answers which he probably wouldn't have done without the Red news.

Of course, in either event, the "identity" of the bones would have been sought and perhaps obtained - whether by Liz or by someone else. So what is it exactly, that having Tom seek the answer puts in play that would not have been the case had the bones gone directly to Liz, and having her get the DNA tested on them?

I think the answer needs to be getting Nik and Pete and probably someone else having knowledge of the suitcase. I can't think of anything else that would have played out differently had Liz got the suitcase directly.

Of course this is just an idea and I could be off base. Anyone else have any thoughts?

Last edited by lara1 (10/31/2017 7:41 pm)

Tuxie400 · 10/31/2017 7:58 pm

lara1 - I agree that Tom orginally intended to give Liz the bones as Kaplan instructed, and the news that Red was Liz's father set Tom on this other path. I agree that Liz would have checked for DNA and then run it against CODIS.

I do wonder if the person who beat up Dennison is the same person who murdered Nik. And is that person the one who had Liz's memory wiped two years ago. Also, how does Oleander fit into all of this? I was thinking Kaplan was a woman of checks and balances. Maybe Oleander was her backup if Tom failed to get the bones to Liz.

lara1 · 10/31/2017 8:24 pm

Tuxie400 #41 - I like your wild idea. You know me and the "2 of everyone" theory! LOL. I have always wondered why Liz's Mother was spoken of as blond as she is in the "swing" photo yet KR as we see her is a redhead. There could be may reasons for it I suppose. We see brunette and blond children but not children with red hair. Then again we have had some redheads - Jolene and Pepper come to mind as well as that mysterious woman with the red hair at the end of Drexel. Well back to your idea, I like it.

On the idea of the skeleton being "no one" - your thoughts make sense. If that skeleton was meant to be part of the explanation why Red came back into Liz's life why would it be no one? And just as importantly, as I think you imply, so Liz gets a suitcase of bones that turn out to be ---- nobody? And how exactly does that turn her against Red or further illuminate anything? My only thought on that is that Red and/or Kaplan thinks/thought it to be KR and its not. KR's death was faked by one or the other, possibly without the knowledge of the other. But if Red had faked KR's death and there is "nobody" in the suitcase, why is he so worried? And if Kaplan faked KR's death then again, how does the body of "nobody", without any explanation to Liz, do anything, exactly?

I think the bones belong to a "somebody", who that somebody is we'll hopefully soon find out. But to match CODIS it sounds like it has to be someone who was either a criminal offender, a victim of a crime scene or perhaps a missing person - and all of those 3 are intriguing. IMO of course!

lara1 · 10/31/2017 8:32 pm

Tuxie400 #43 - I also think that the person who killed Nik (or was responsible for it) was the same person responsible for Liz's memory wipe of two years ago. and its connected to what she found when she was in the flat with Caul, somehow. Maybe Caul even told her something that he assumed she knew, and she did not, but that's just speculation. Oleander I feel is somehow connected to the identity of the bones. How, I have no ideas! LOL

On Dennison - I assumed that Dembe or someone else affiliated with Red had beat up Dennison, because Red says to him (Dennison) something about how he's a tough nut to crack, his loyalty to Kaplan is intense etc., so why would Red say that to him if Dembe or someone else hadn't already try to beat some info out of him? I read somewhere that the preview showed them entering Dennison's apt with guns drawn (which was not shown) but that could have been because the door was open (didn't Tom leave it ajar?) whereas the door had been closed (though the lock smashed) when Dembe or whomever last saw Dennison. Unless someone else also got to Dennison after Dembe was there and before he and Red returned, its possible!

Last edited by lara1 (10/31/2017 8:32 pm)

Tuxie400 · 10/31/2017 9:52 pm

lara1 - I originally thought Dembe had beaten up Dennison and then had gone to get Red. But others convinced me that it wasn't Dembe because of Dembe's actions with the Chinese restaurant guy. Dembe told Miles Cho earlier in Ep. 5.02:"I believe one gets more flies with honey than vinegar. I have also studied the Behavioral Change Stairway Model developed by the FBI’s hostage-negotiation unit. If the goal is to get one to tell something they don’t want to tell, empathy and rapport are vital"
Would Dembe really have beaten Dennison to a pulp having expressed this idea to Cho? Or did empathy and rapport fail with Dennison, so he resorted to physical violence? I wish the show had made it clearer who beat him up. Red tells Dennison he's a "tough son of a bitch" and remarks on his loyalty to Kaplan. So it would seem someone roughed him up on Red's orders. While Dembe appears to be Red's "muscle," have we ever seen him actually beat somebody up? We've seen him shoot people many times, but I can't recall a scene with him beating someone.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (10/31/2017 9:52 pm)

lara1 · 10/31/2017 11:21 pm

Tuxie400 - agree the whole situation could have been made clearer. I don't think we've seen Dembe do the muscle man stuff but then Red's crew is rather thin on the ground now. Maybe there was a short scene that showed one of Red's guys leaving the room having tried to get Dennison to talk, which was then cut for time reasons.

It was also strange to me in that scene that 1) Tom left his gun on the coffee table while hiding in the closet (wouldn't it make sense for him to take that for self-preservation given the scenario esp given his training?) and 2) that Red apparently did not see it when Red has such acute powers of observation. And, if Red and Dembe came in and thought someone else had broken in, wouldn't they have searched the apartment? So something in that scene was off, I do wonder if its the way it had to be edited. LOL

Tuxie400 · 11/01/2017 9:28 am

lara1 - Yes, I agree there was a lot in that scene that didn't make sense. Why would Tom, a trained operative, leave his gun on the coffee table? Maybe Red thought the gun belonged to Dennison.

11/01/2017 11:09 am

Agreed. I was confused by several aspects of the scene because I also initially thought Dembe had beaten the guy up and brought Red back, but then they came in with guns drawn. They didn't seem suspicious when they approached the tied-up Dennison and search the apartment and missed the gun on the table. They could have assumed the gun was Dennison's. I wonder if it will ever be explained?

lara1 · 11/01/2017 6:03 pm

I am now wondering again about this, about whether we will even find out definitively whose bones those are, if they are meant to be either KR or "Reddington". Because, wouldn't that reveal too much and give the series away, like whatever it was that Red whispered to Kirk? Both may be along the same lines, different ways of telling the same truth.....

However if its someone else (say ballerina girl), I think we would probably find out. But why would someone kill over that? Maybe its just for extorting money from Red because it means something to Red, and maybe because that one "smaller" "truth" can help to piece together the "larger" truth.

LOL I can't believe I just wrote that. Only you all can possibly understand what it means!

11/01/2017 6:11 pm

Lara-we get you.

I think for it to be revealed to be "Reddington", meaning our guy is an imposter, would be an end of the series sort of reveal because I'm not sure how well the general/casual viewers would handle that as an ongoing thing. I think it being KR could still happen because they could lead the hunt for her on through more seasons (and fighting with her could be a season of its own), though I think it would be the last of the major mysteries and lead us towards the series finale. Not that I think the series has too many more seasons left in the tank.

But I agree that it could also be a 'smaller' truth that leads to bigger ones. I still question at this point if Red is underestimating the impact somehow, such as whether he anticipated that anyone could still extract DNA and if there would be a match...I'll have to see tonight how much information he finds out (like if he learns that someone ran the DNA through CODIS and that they used Liz's ID to do it). Red definitely sees this as a threat to himself, but if he believes Liz is in danger because of it, it will increase his need to get to it.

Last edited by Brittany (11/01/2017 6:11 pm)

JackPow · 11/02/2017 8:53 am

My theory du jour is that the DNA ID came up as "Raymond Reddington" (or maybe some known alias of his) therefore making it obvious to whoever stole the bones that they are most valuable to our Red. He would obviously be an imposter and would pay a great deal to have those bones disappear again so he can continue that ruse. He would also have to kill that person too since no one can know he's a fake.

I agree with Brittany that it would be an ENORMOUS reveal and it could be tough regarding how long the series could carry on after that. Maybe it could inject some new life into the premise and obviously change direction in a major way. Meaning, "so Red is a fake, now who is he?!?" becomes the new storyline until the official series finale.

Perhaps us viewers won't find out the DNA ID reveal til until this season's finale (ugh!) or maybe we will never find out until the very end of the series. We might watch Red confront and kill whoever has the bones this season, but we'll get some cryptic talk ala "I know your secret" then the person is shot dead and we'll still be left in the dark until the series finally ends.

Anyway, that's just my current guess. Believe me, it will change in a matter of days!

On a separate note, maybe you guys could refresh my memory to help answer some questions I have. Do we KNOW whether the bones were buried IN the suitcase? Was that established last season and maybe I just can't remember? Or could they have been in a coffin and then Mr Kaplan put them into a suitcase for transporting? I'm asking because if the bones are Katarina's, I find it odd that Red would bury them in a suitcase, even if he did have a falling out with her. She's still the mother of his child. Plus wouldn't the leather have broken down after 30 years?

In closing: I have no idea who the hell is in "that damn suitcase"

Last edited by JackPow (11/02/2017 9:03 am)

lara1 · 11/02/2017 10:00 am

JackPow - I don't think we were ever told about the origin of the bones in the suitcase. I have surmised myself that they were not originally buried in the suitcase based on two things

1. I don't believe that the suitcase was degraded enough to have been buried all of that time. Additionally, the address tag had a line for email address, meaning to me it was buried in the last ten years or less. I don't think Kaplan added the tag after unearthing the case because it did have some staining on it, meaning to me it had been buried, maybe as recently as when Red resurfaced a few years ago. So, in summary, it had been buried, but relatively recently. Because something happened wth those bones, someone discovered where they might be for example, so they were moved somewhere else and buried. Or Red had been looking for them himself, found them and buried them. All theories of course.

2. Pete says to Nik and Tom that the bones had been degraded because of exposure to AIR, and the elements, meaning to me that they had not been buried in the earth the entire time. Theory again, of course.

Agree with both you and Brittany - my point exactly - that if the bones are "real" RR they would not be revealed as such to the audience. That doesn't mean that they're not Reddington's bones of course.

Last edited by lara1 (11/02/2017 10:01 am)

Tuxie400 · 11/02/2017 10:14 am

If there was a match on CODIS, I think it would be a familial match to Liz. Katarina went missing in 1990. Could her DNA have been added as missing person at some point? If the bones do turn out to be Katarina, the only reason they would upset Liz would be if they body shows she was killed some other way than drowning. I believe Cooper said there was no DNA on record for RR. It seems strange that there would not have been considering he was wanted for treason. So maybe he was a "Man that Never Was." If the bones belong to Ballerina Girl, why would that upset Liz and destroy her relationship with Red? Was Ballerina Girl a missing person?

Last edited by Tuxie400 (12/15/2017 11:46 am)

lara1 · 11/02/2017 10:35 am

Tuxie400 #54 - all excellent points!

I think yes, RR should not be in CODIS unless he was a "man that never was" and the DNA in the d/b attributed to him is actually someone else (though my own view is that is too convoluted)

If it is KR yes if KR is in the d/b - perhaps as a "missing" person, although that (when she disappeared) (early 1990) pre-dates CODIS as well.

For ballerina girl to be in the d/b, she was either a missing person or found at a "crime" scene......but if we follow Red's story, presumably that would have pre-dated CODIS as well! LOL

When Nik looked at the computer screen, I thought his expression was like, what? like being perplexed as well as surprised. Could it be a familial match to Liz - not KR, not ballerina girl, someone who died more recently - like maybe Jennifer who disappeared in 2006? That might fit the timeline of when the case was perhaps buried. But its all theories - and why would that be so impactful for Red/Liz. It would also mean the Red has known where Jennifer has been all of this time. I think its a long shot....IMO of course.

so - back to the drawing board!

Last edited by lara1 (11/02/2017 10:37 am)

11/02/2017 12:56 pm

We have never actually received any sort of timeline on how long the bones have been buried or when the person was killed. I've also wondered if the bones were moved, but then when Red said they were supposed to be lost to the sands of time, it made me question that. I tend to go back to Kaplan calling it 'our secret' and think that whoever it was had been killed after she started working for him (which has never been totally confirmed, but sometime in the mid-1990s). Because I don't think she would have referred to it as 'our secret' if she hadn't been involved in some way. The body could have been buried in the suitcase and degraded enough to become just bones, while the suitcase was still hardy enough to survive as it is. SO perhaps the body isn't 30 years old. Perhaps it hasn't been dead as long.

JackPow · 11/02/2017 1:02 pm

I was unfamiliar with the term CODIS before this show. (lol, I was unfamiliar with A LOT of things before this show!!) Was DNA never kept AT ALL prior to the CODIS system? Maybe older samples/evidence pieces were just entered into the modern system when it was eventually established. Or prior to DNA collecting technology, maybe things like hair samples (from a missing person's hairbrush) and other bodily things were kept and then years later entered into the modern CODIS system. Lol, I think i sound like an airhead!

Anyway, if that's the case, then I could see how some of the people from Red's past could be in the modern CODIS system.

Tuxie400 · 11/02/2017 1:53 pm

JackPow - You don't sound like an airhead. I think if a detective was working on a cold case, evidence would have been checked for DNA later and added into CODIS.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (11/05/2017 10:01 am)

11/02/2017 3:02 pm

JackPow- I've tried to find out if CODIS added in previously collected DNA, but so far haven't seen indications of it. The law wasn't passed until 1994 for the Feds to start putting DNA into the system. I don't know if the law would have retroactively applied to previously gathered DNA or not. The first use of DNA in a trial wasn't until 1988 and it took time for the technology and legal system to catch up. It is only collected for felony arrests, convicted felons, unidentified remains, forensic case work (like a rape kit without a suspect) missing persons, and relatives of missing persons. So going off of that (meaning that no prior DNA was added), RR and KR neither would likely have DNA in the system, but Liz would. I doubt we get a DNA tie to Liz, but her ID being used would tie her into it.

My theory has been that the person who has the suitcase (Oleander?) believed that KR was in the suitcase, but that this DNA test proved it wasn't because it may have come up a missing person, an unidentified person, or as the relative with DNA in the index of a still-missing person. This would allow Oleander/mystery man to make the assumption that she may still be alive. The mentions of KR between Kaplan and Dembe both at the burial site make me feel like it would be completely bonkers to not be related to her because there was no one else there to put on a show for in terms of 'pretending' it was related to KR when it really wasn't and why mention her if it isn't anything to do with her.

Last edited by Brittany (11/02/2017 4:35 pm)

Eastcoast · 11/03/2017 3:10 am

What a time to have a thought hit you....

Everyone's life will be changed forever.
What if it isn't Tom who gets killed but it's Agnes that gets hurt or killed in the middle of all this? That is an event that changes everyone. 😔