Honey West wrote:

Ha ha, Iowa Watcher #417, I think she was picked up by a waiting Russian submarine.

That could be, too!

Tuxie400 wrote:

Tatiana wrote:

So what do you all think of katarina, is she dead? Alive? In hiding?

I've always thought Katarina was still alive until now. I was sure she would show up at the end of this season. Now I don't know. I did think what Red told Kaplan in Requiem was interesting: "After Katarina's sudden departure, I felt a responsibility to watch over the girl from a distance." If he believed she had drowned, why didn't he say after Katarina's death?  

 

Tuxie400 - thanks for highlighting that dialogue, I didn't catch it - then again I've only watched the finale twice!  LOL

The other interesting part of that sentence, for me, is "I felt a responsibility to watch over the girl from a distance."  Why?  (if you exclude the "father" answer).  Note, there is no discernible response from Kate alluding to Red being her father.  Then again, there probably didn't need to be.    Such "exquisite frustration", deadskie13, indeed!

Every time I step away from the "father reveal" at the end of the finale, and step back again, I have a different thought.  Right now, I am back to why and where Kaplan was taking Liz to "show her the truth" about why Red came into her life.  And I don't think she was going to show her proof of paternity, but the "secret" that Red has at Tansi Farms.  Something that made Red come into Liz's life at that moment in time.

I wrote earlier in this thread what that might be, or what may have happened four years ago, but I can't find my post, LOL.  Whatever, the reason doesn't seem to be paternity.  But, it may be that Red really is Liz's father and the "connection", that is not yet revealed, is something deeper and probably darker (for this being network television) which is why maybe the true extent of it won't be revealed until the very end.

I've always felt that Red's motives towards Liz were paternal, or at least strongly protective of course, but since somewhere around the end of Season 1, I've thought that the connection had something to do with Red's "real" daughter who was "lost", whom Red "failed" to save or blames himself for.  And Liz is his way, his chance, to make up for it.  Or maybe even a closer connection.  But who knows, really.  Nothing has been eliminated entirely as yet IMO.  

But I'm really interested in re-watching the series with the clues that we have now been given, to see if anything earlier "missed" as we did not have the information to pull it out, now jumps out.

Last edited by lara1 (5/29/2017 12:55 pm)

lara1 wrote:

Honey West wrote:

I go back and forth on whether KR is alive or not. If she's dead, Red is responsible. Maybe it was an accident or just maybe it was on purpose if he felt that she had betrayed him. We've seen how Red reacts to betrayal. If she's alive, I think she's somehow impaired to the point of not being able to reach out to Liz herself.

Ha ha, Iowa Watcher #417, I think she was picked up by a waiting Russian submarine.

Honey West - that is kind of where I am at the moment - I go back and forth.  Like Tuxie400, I thought Katarina might make an appearance in the series finale but she did not (unless she is the one in the suitcase, but that's not the appearance I was thinking of).  

HW, you make a good point about betrayal.  The Red that Kate met in Amarillo in Requiem (which, regardless of imposter theory or no, I think is "current" Red), had some choice and strong words about how Katarina betrayed two superpowers.  And as you mention, we know his thoughts on betrayal.  However - was that a "personal" betrayal - it might have been, if Red was caught in the crossfire of what went down as a result.  And I think he was, whether he's an imposter or not.  So where is KR?  the next series mystery....


EDITED to Add:  And Red himself was categorized as a traitor/betrayer, which may not have been true, as we have seen a number of hints that he was not, was falsely accused....

 
I'm inclined to think that Red took it as a personal betrayal since he thought that his child was part of it. Regardless of that you could say that Kate betrayed him for the same reason, taking his child away from him. And he shot her for that. Of course later he says he should never have pulled the trigger, but he still did it anyway. And you can't change the past.  So maybe he and Katarina were going to take Masha and run off together and for some reason she balked at the last minute and tried to leave with Masha without him. Would he see that as a betrayal, plus she's taking away his child? You bet! Would he kill her for that? Well, look what he did to Kate. And, based on the KR/Kate conversation in Requiem, Red has always believed that Masha was his, even though KR says she really didn't know, she never found out. Well, that's what she told Kate, we don't know if she ever confirmed it or not before she vanished.

So Reds affair with KR cost him his future. Who knows, maybe he would have ended up as director of national security or something like that. Instead, he's spent his whole adult life on the run, in danger, emotionally isolated. The one bright spot being Liz. A reminder of the last time he was truly happy? Perhaps. But that is a lot to pin on one person. Now that the truth is out, I see some potential for fireworks as she processes what that truly means for her and Agnes. She thought once upon a time that she could escape from Reddington's World, and he did tell her she could walk away, but she appears to be choosing to be part of it. For now.

I'm not sure if this means anything or not, but I took note of the canvas quote Hitchin had in her house, the one she was standing by when she gave Ressler his I.D. back.  The best I can tell, this is what it says:  "Later when I came down I found out all of it was true Later when I came down I found out all of it was true Last night when I came down"  

That being said, with how clever those Blacklist mongooses are, I thought I'd do a quick search, and pop up with a song or a book or something that would be an implied wink.  Ironically enough, I didn't find anything.  The bold "found out" noted above, is due to the deal where it's a little obscure, and I'm not 100% certain I got the word(s) right.  Everything else is pretty clear, though.  At any rate, just thought I'd toss it into the mix.  ^-^  

She also had a large canvas with either three bags or vases on it, with the single word please.  So it could just mean that Laurel liked eccentric things.  ;)

Tatiana wrote:

If I judge by what we've seen on-screen and not what showrunners have said, I would think that Liz's real dad was shot the night of the fire and those are his bones in the suitcase. I would also think that katarina and raymond/spader worked together. After the father was killed in the fire, rayond/spader assumed his identity. I still wonder if Katarina/Raymond were siblings or just worked together in espionage.

Everything about me is a lie, I'm a criminal, criminals are notorious liars.

*sigh*
Has anyone gone back to earlier episodes where raymond/spader meets up with people he knew before 1990, his disappearance?

There's Fitch, someone from the navy, Karla /Naomi, Cooper (did he actually work with him where he would have seen him?).
Who else?

Well that's partly where I am at.  Over the summer when I re-watch, I am going to focus on the words - what is said, exactly.

Its interesting, I was thinking of what Richard the Admiral said, what Naomi said, and what Dom said.  all about how Red made some kind of colossal blunder, that caused collateral damage:

- the Admiral's career was ruined, as he could not shake the association with Reddingon;
- Naomi's life was ruined, as was that of her daughter and (for a reason that has not been expressly explained), they had to go into witness protection;
- Dom said they all had to back out of Masha's life, and he could have spent the last 30 years being her grandfather
-in Kate's memory, there are no details about Red's behavior around the time of the fire.  Only that KR had to back out of Masha's life.  There is no discussion about Red doing something at that time.  Yet, when Kate met Red in Amarillo, she states that his actions were treasonous.  in 1994.  Curious.

The "official" FBI story has nothing gone awry, no "incident" in 1990 - just that Red never came back to his family, he disappeared.  I think its clear  yet he was seen periodically I think between 1991 and 1992.  And Naomi last saw him in 1994, per her statements to Berlin.  It was in 1994, I believe, when the classified docs showed up.  And when Naomi last saw him.  And when he approached Kaplan about working for him because Liz was now in greater danger.  And when Red went officially off the radar.

So are Richard, Naomi and Dom all talking about the same event?  most likely yes, but I don't know for sure.

EDITED to Add:  Dom's 30 years would pre-date the fire.  So we have 1986, 1989-90 and 1994 as working dates.

Last edited by lara1 (5/29/2017 6:43 pm)

Tatiana #427 - I forgot about Cooper.  From the way Cooper spoke in the finale, it didn't seem to me that he had actually met Reddington, or at least, seen him in person during that operation.  It sounded like he was running points on the evidence and helping to manage things administratively while Red was out in the field, and I don't think he would have been at the rescue.  I wonder to what extent someone with his job, more generally, would have met up with a covert operative.  I'm guessing no, not at a junior level.

With Kuwait, I don't think we know.  Red refers to it as their "adventure" in Kuwait.  That was later, in 1989,  In that one, I think its more likely that they had worked together but we don't know that for a fact nor  what role either of them would have played, I don't think.  And it is closer timeline wise, to fire night.

Tatiana and Honey West - during my re-watch last summer, I made notes of who called Red what (Raymond, Red, Reddington, both).  If it helps, I can create a post under reference and add it.

Shall I do that?  I didn't make notes during Season 4, but I can add that and supplement it during my re-watch when the DVDs come out later in the summer.

Last edited by lara1 (5/30/2017 8:48 am)

lara1 wrote:

Tatiana and Honey West - during my re-watch last summer, I made notes of who called Red what (Raymond, Red, Reddington, both).  If it helps, I can create a post under reference and add it.

Shall I do that?  I didn't make notes during Season 4, but I can add that and supplement it during my re-watch when the DVDs come out later in the summer.

 

Lara, that would be really cool! It would be very interesting to see if there's anything to that. I've always wondered the same thing about if there is any significance to which name each person uses to address "Red."

Tatiana - It sounds like you are firmly in the imposter camp right now. Is that new for you, or have you always leaned that way? I'm just curious. What puts you there at this point?  I've never been more firmly in the original Raymond Reddington camp.than now, although I still think there's an outside chance Red could be Katarina. Particularly since Daniel Cerone didn't address the big 4th season discrepancy:Kate said in Mato that Raymond had placed Liz in her arms as a baby girl and asked her to keep Liz safe.. But in Requiem it was Katarina who placed Masha in her arms and ask her to protect the child.  I find it very curious Cerone didn't say anything about that one - not even an "will be explained in the series."