JackPow wrote:

That's what got me. We finally get this moment we've been waiting for since the series began. Liz finally discovering that Red is her father and confronting him with the info. I think we all envisioned a perfect James Spader acting moment. Perhaps one of those incredible emotional Red monologues and a real watershed moment like "yes, it's true. That's why I've cared so much....." yadda yadda yadda.

But instead, we get.....nothing. Just Red looking at Liz in silence. No way the writers are going to waste a James Spader moment on such an important scene. I think the look of shock on Red's face wasn't that he was choked up with emotion but him frantically thinking "ok ok what DOES she think she knows?" and then realizing his (or her?) secret is still safe, as Dembe seemed to suggest in the following scenes.

So frustratingly, the "reveal" this episode was unsatisfying. We have a blood sample taken from a decades old bloody shirt. I think it still leaves open the imposter/Redarina theory.

As for the suitcase, I have to say I have no idea. My initial reaction was that the bones are Katarina's. (that would obviously make me drop the Redarina possibility) In keeping with that, I wonder if there is something to Red's comments in Cape May to "Katarina" about "I chose the child" suggesting he had to either kill the mother or just let her die in order to save Lizzy. Though his callous words of "that goddamn suitcase" seem an odd choice to describe someone you once cared about, assuming Red was truly broken up over his Hobsons Choice.

I think the reveal was very true to Red's character.  Figure on the surface, he's very confident, and talkative, and larger than life and such--but on the inside, there's something very broken and damaged, which Liz has picked up on before.  And it all goes back to the deal where Red can't process the fact that he could mean something to someone else.  So to me, it made a lot of sense that he kind of shut down--not because he wasn't feeling anything, but because he was feeling everything, and mostly didn't know how to process those feelings of acceptance.  

I imagine James was pretty much able to play this scene any way he wanted, due to the creators taking actor input into consideration, and his continued in-depth involvement with the show.  And I think he decided to go the understated route, so it would stand out even more.  What I mean is, we have a lot of scenes of Red being social and emotional and so very very Red--but louder isn't always better.  This is a quiet, personal moment, stripped down to the bare basics of what the show has always been about:  Raymond Reddington and Elizabeth Keen.  And so I think it was a good choice to keep it close.  It wasn't the kind of LOOK AT ME!  LOOK AT ME! Red things we're used to seeing.  Instead, it was more along the lines of, please don't look at me--please don't look at me--please see me.

But!  It definitely does come down to personal taste, and I'm sorry you were disappointed.   

(I'm disappointed that Solomon is still alive.  Do I like his character?  I love to hate him!  But do I think there's any way at all that Red would allow someone who almost killed Liz and Dembe, to still exist in the world?  NEGATORY.)

If I had to pick a side right now, today, I'm leaning towards Red being the one and only original Reddington.  Just because I think there's a reason we were presented with another opportunity to confirm that yes, Red is Lizzy's father.  That's two arrows pointing in that direction, now--one from Red's admittance, and the other from a blood test.  Can it be argued that Red was telling Kirk whatever he wanted to hear, and that there's a reason the blood sample was an old one and not current?  Most certainly.  And I talk myself into circles all the time.  But today--today I'm leaning towards Red being Red.  Mostly, because I think ultimately, we're looking at a very simple story between a father and daughter, with all kinds of jeezy-creezy complicated circumstances surrounding them.

That being said, I really do enjoy your comments!  Thanks for joining in, JackPow!  
 

Rori wrote:

Hey ole' pals. It is I, Rori, checking in from the world of RL. Have I been following you BLRs all season? Yes. I. Have. Yet, only now have I pulled it together to get registered and hop on to add to your characteristically fascinating discussions. 
Swimming in Thoughts, I am only going to write out one, because y'all manage by telepathy to convey much of what I might write at any time on any given topic. But it's a Tom Thought. As scene fades to black with Tom holding my grandmother's suitcase, I was thinking that whatever he is inclined to do with that bag of bones must be informed by his recent experiences with his own uber-functional FOA (family of origin). What a dissonant time that has been! Good-Mommy/Bad-Daddy...or is it vice-versa?? Nothing turned out to be what it seemed for him; so how will his current state incline him regarding his role in Liz's blood-parent-unravelling-mysteries process.
I'm inclined to think it might make him more vigilant in protecting her. I do not believe there is anything nefarious about his being the person Kaplan chose to get the suitcase. Some people on the Internets seem to think this indicates something chronically creepy about Tom-Jacob. But I think Kaplan leaving him with this task is very organic, given what they've gone through in the past "year" especially. She has simply passed the "Protect Masha/Elizabeth" baton onto a natural successor.
But people have their own notions of "protection," so my suspicion is that Tom, being lately burned by the two faces of Dad, coupled with his perennial hatred of Reddington, is not going to embrace the newly minted DNA results wholeheartedly; nevertheless, with Liz's relief and enthusiasm about the DNA match, he's also not going to want to crush her. So, I align with those who are doubtful that he is going to share those bones with her anytime soon. I think that as Season 5 opens, while Reddington learns how to shop at Cosco/Aldi's and ride the CitiBus, the Tom story will be him figuring out the truth about those bones.
Thanks for "listening" and for being here!
 

RORI!  HELLO!    I'll admit, I'm a conclusion jumper when it comes to Tom.  Admittedly, he still very well could be legit, and want to protect Liz, and Kaplan just chose him because she's aware of that.  But, I do think there's a possibility for double-agent/jerk-face Tom to reappear.  For me, it all honestly just depends on if/when we find out if Tom has known about Red and Liz's relationship all along--if so, then he needs to answer a lot of questions, and needs to do so very carefully.  

deadskie13 wrote:

 And I talk myself into circles all the time.  But today--today I'm leaning towards Red being Red.  Mostly, because I think ultimately, we're looking at a very simple story between a father and daughter, with all kinds of jeezy-creezy complicated circumstances surrounding them.
 

Agreed.

Our red herring was that the showrunners were telling us Red is not Elizabeth's father. "You will always be her father, Sam" I suspect that this is the truth they want to push. A parent and child are created not so much by genetics, but by the commitment of the parent to be the father/mother to the child. 

Deadskie  #381 - "But today--today I'm leaning towards Red being Red.  Mostly, because I think ultimately, we're looking at a very simple story between a father and daughter, with all kinds of jeezy-creezy complicated circumstances surrounding them." 

That's where I stand today too, although the door hasn't totally been shut on an imposter theory. Sometimes the simplest answer is the best one.

deadskie13 #382 - great catch - ballerina girl and 1987.  I hadn't put that together!   

Tatiana #386 - interesting thought.  Whoever our "current" Red is, its possible he missed the 1987 recital and then something bad happened to ballerina girl and he not only never saw the performance, he never saw her again at all.  (I wish we knew where that darned performance took place!  )

That really intrigues me, because one thought I have always had about the Swan Lake scene is that Red appeared to be imagining the little girl dancing.  Not only as in, he is seeing that while there is actually an adult dancing in front of him, but that he was imagining it as if he never saw it to begin with. He was thinking of what it would have been like.

And the date was symbolic - i.e. something happened in March 1987.  But that's just my imagination at work!  LOL. 

I was certain we would find out more about ballerina girl by the end of the season, given all of the heavy ballerina girl clues in several episodes - including "Odette" leaping to her death, as Odette does at the end of the ballet.

I read somewhere that someone thought that ballerina girl is the person in the suitcase. If that is the case, that may be what the clues were leading up to. I haven't thought that through yet - if that's what it is, we should have had another clue to it somewhere along the way at the end of the season....will have to keep that in mind.  Or maybe that stuff in the barn at Tansi Farm is related to it.  More re-watching!

EDITED to ADD: re Swan Lake ballerina girl, I wonder if Kaplan's suicide points to that as well - in the ballet Odette leaps to her death down into a rocky body of water, as I remember.

Last edited by lara1 (5/27/2017 6:24 pm)

Tatiana wrote:

Out of curiosity I went through the scene where Cooper pulls the evidence box. The document is Case #0612. The document appears to be extensively redacted. There's a lot of other things in the box. Furthermore, the shirt had already been cut for a sample. Had there been a DNA test in 1987?

The photo shows the torture room and it's gruesome. There's a long electrical cord, chains, and what appears to be shackles attached to some type of metal slab table. Glad they only showed a slight bit. 

 

Thanks for your observations! After reading this, I watched Kaplan Pt. 2 again. It does look like the shirt was cut for a sample, and the previous sample was a much bigger strip than Cooper took. The torture room was gruesome. Unlike you, I wish they had shown more. I guess I have a morbid curiosity. I wonder why so much of the report was redacted.

I think 1987 must have been an eventful year for Raymond:
1. His 10-day torture session at the hand of Seaduke. 
2. Ballerina Girl's performance in Swan Lake
3. Befriending Statos, who was running guns to Cypriot resistance fighters



 

lara1 wrote:

I know this is probably a minority view now, but I'm still not convinced that Red is Liz's father.

Just for the record: I agree! Very short support: "Everything about me is a lie."

I've been trying to sit down and type all day, but lots of interruptions due to the holiday. I hope that everyone is having an excellent weekend!

Tuxie400 wrote:

The other thought I had about Tansi Farms is that Masha must have gone there with her mother and father. Remember her picture at the Summer Palace and at Dom's had an apple tree. And Tansi Farms was an apple farm.
 

Great observation. The child's drawings had apple trees. Totally forgot about that. Although, in some kind of tangental way, when I first saw that picture it made me think of Rose White and Rose Red.

Tuxie you're right! 
" I first met Stratos Sarantos when he was running guns to Cypriot resistance fighters in 1987. For more than 20 years, he’s overseen my shipping concerns from the Bosphorus to the Suez Canal. He knows enough."

1987 seems to be a pivotal year.
 

Tuxie400 wrote:

lara1 #361 - But in thinking through it, something occurred to me re the finale ep 22 - we had two different instances of 2 white rabbits.  First, there is the snake, Betsy, and the two white rabbits.  Then in the attic of the barn at Tansi Farm, it looks like 2 white stuffed rabbits in a box in the background.  There were also 2 white rabbits on fire night (the one Liz had, and the one in the girl's room that they pass on their way out of the house.) " 

I've looked at that scene with Kaplan in the attic room shot by shot, and I don't see the two rabbits. Where are they? 

What did have me transfixed in that scene was was the lamp lit up in the middle of the room. The shade has silhouettes of a man and woman I think dancing on each side. It reminded me of the man and woman arguing in front of the window in Liz's fire memories. I did see the the Christmas decorations. If the two rabbits are there, then I think this is where Liz's original memory wipe was done. The attic room must be at Tansi Farm because there are stacks and stacks of baskets like those for collecting apples there.

The other thought I had about Tansi Farms is that Masha must have gone there with her mother and father. Remember her picture at the Summer Palace and at Dom's had an apple tree. And Tansi Farms was an apple farm.
 

Nice work, Tuxie400!  Your last two paragraphs got me thinking, what if Kirk was right?  What if there was no fire? 
What if fire night was entirely staged, due to Katarina and Red needing to disappear from everyone and everything, including their daughter, because everything got far too dangerous far too quick, and so they had to step out of Elizabeth's life, in order to keep her safe?  So Tansi Farms would still be the place of the memory implant, just in a different kind of way.  

Already we know that Kirk had found out about Reddington and Katarina, based on the "gun in your mouth" story.  And it's implied that The Director knew the relationship between Red and Liz--and he knew that Katarina was Liz's mom.  So that's two people who could do a lot of damage with this information--the former, accidentally (I believe Kirk really loved Katarina, and so I don't think he would deliberately put her in harm's way), and the latter, intentionally (there's an endless amount of Cabal members The Director could have informed, in order to climb up the ranks).  So it's feasible that drastic measures had to take place.

Going along those lines, Red would have literally given Lizzy her scar, in order to add credibility to the events having actually taken place.  This would be the unforgivable act that Kaplan believes Liz would not forgive Reddington for--making her believe such a traumatic event in her life was real.  This would also be the secret that Sam wanted to tell Liz before he died, and would account for the look of fear on Red's face when Liz shoots Connelly and says she remembers everything.  

If all of this were true, then I believe Katarina could still be alive.  But if so, I believe that means that her and Reddington are working together, and on the same page--or at the very least were for a long period of time.  I would also believe that this is what Red would have told Kirk, when it got to that point; it would have been the information we previously speculated to have gotten Kirk to spare Red's life--the knowledge that Katarina was still alive, and out in the world, somewhere.  

The Hobson's choice could then be Red having to make the call if Katarina got to keep her old life, versus Lizzy getting a life of her own.  If enough people had found out about Red and Kat, then it would be inevitable that at some point in time, one of them had to disappear in a more permanent kind of way--not necessarily death, but wiping the slate entirely clean from anything they'd previously done.  For someone like Katarina, who was very good at what she did, and seemed to love being a spy, it must have felt a lot like death.  And despite wanting to protect Liz at all costs, maybe it wouldn't have been something she would have been able to do; maybe Reddington had her memories tampered with--either by her consent or not.  One of Red's specialties, after all, is making people disappear. 

I'm not necessarily sold on the idea, mostly because we still have Red's scars on his back--which I still believe occurred in the same fire Liz remembers.  And we still have Liz left with the memory of having killed someone--which I still believe is true, be it the figurative death of Red who was accidentally shot, or the actual death of someone there on that night.  And I'm sure, like any theory, for every credible piece we find for this particular puzzle, there could just as easily be a great number of holes to poke through everything, too.  But it is a fun rabbit to chase, so to speak.  

On another note, that's why this place continues to be so amazing--you can find one comment from someone, and you can pick it up and run with it.  I constantly find myself twisting and turning through various epiphanies every time I read from the forum.  Thanks, everyone!  And thank you, Tuxie400, for this particular rabbit hole to fall down!  

deaskie13 - our posts crossed, and we each had some similar thoughts, though I hadn't thought through as far as you had.  But I do wonder if Red did give Liz that scar.  I'd forgotten that I'd thought that from time to time after the Braxton memory recall - because Liz looks down and sees the scar on her wrist as she's holding on to Red's hands in current time.  And that's why he's so intent to quiz her on it in the pilot.  And why it's mentioned again in the finale.  Even though the reference wasn't entirely correct, I believe they still wanted to add it.  

The scar is an important clue - how, when and where Liz  got it. (And may be a reason that Masha did not have it in the finale (production errors not withstanding.) I'm starting to think that the whole thing was an elaborate hoax -  magic trick if you will, smoke and mirrors.  Need to think it through a bit but you may be on the right track!

Last edited by lara1 (5/27/2017 10:51 pm)