Tatiana #296, what you wrote made a lot of sense, and it got me thinking again about 1994.  I will say though that I never believed that Red and Carla/Naomi were actually married.  But that's just my perception.  And 1994 is part of that.  And is it (1994) tied to the suitcase in some way?

When Naomi is captured by Berlin, she tells him that she can't help him, that Red doesn't care about her, that is why she is in hiding, to protect her child.  And she doesn't want to give her child up to Red, either, and she is vehement about that.  And then Naomi says to Berlin that she hasn't seen Red for 20 years - not 25.  that occurred in 2014, so 20 years prior would be 1994. Four years after she and Jennifer were placed in protective custody.

That year (1994) was when the classified docs started showing up and (I think) Red was accused in absentia.  Then, in 1994, Red approaches Kate, (I forget how we figured this out, LOL) who hasn't seen Liz since she brought her to Sam's, around end of 1989/early 1990.  She had backed out of Liz's life at KR's request.  Something then happens in 1994 that causes Red to be more concerned about Liz's safety.

How that ties in to the documents and Carla/Naomi having seen him then, I don't yet know.  But I am pondering.

So back to Carla/Naomi/Jennifer, Naomi seems protective of Jennifer,  and Jennifer left in 2007 because she knew Red "would come for her".  Sounded a bit ominous.  And why was Naomi protecting, guarding Jennifer from Red?  And did that thing happen in 1994, or was it related to what happened in 1994?  Naomi tells Berlin that she's in hiding to protect her child, and she hasn't seen Red in 20 years, all in the same breath.

Back to Carla, my thoughts are that either Carla was married to the original Reddington (if you believe in imposter theory) or the marriage was a cover marriage, or second marriage and Red's real family was elsewhere.  That doesn't mean that there isn't another connection between Naomi and Red - maybe even familial.  And IMO, doesn't mean that Red can't feel very deeply for her.  Red has shown deep affection for those whom he has trusted and who have been loyal, and those who got caught in the crossfire as a result.

For now,  Im going to reflect back on what may have happened in 1994.  And is it related to the suitcase? And are the events of what drove Red into Liz's life a few years ago also related to what happened in 1994?  Because it just kept "getting worse"?

I was thinking about Kirk's comment that "unlike you I would never hurt my own daughter." Since Reds disappearance was all over the news where Kirk probably saw it, might that not just be simply a reference to him running out on/abandoning his family, as Liz accused him of doing? That would hurt a child.

Honey West wrote:

I was thinking about Kirk's comment that "unlike you I would never hurt my own daughter." Since Reds disappearance was all over the news where Kirk probably saw it, might that not just be simply a reference to him running out on/abandoning his family, as Liz accused him of doing? That would hurt a child.

I think you are probably right about what Kirk meant. I've also wondered whether some spy Red was after in Europe threatened Red's family and made good on his threat when Red reported information about him.
 

Tuxie400 wrote:

Honey West wrote:

I was thinking about Kirk's comment that "unlike you I would never hurt my own daughter." Since Reds disappearance was all over the news where Kirk probably saw it, might that not just be simply a reference to him running out on/abandoning his family, as Liz accused him of doing? That would hurt a child.

I think you are probably right about what Kirk meant. I've also wondered whether some spy Red was after in Europe threatened Red's family and made good on his threat when Red reported information about him.
 

SeaDuke, maybe

Honey West wrote:

I was thinking about Kirk's comment that "unlike you I would never hurt my own daughter." Since Reds disappearance was all over the news where Kirk probably saw it, might that not just be simply a reference to him running out on/abandoning his family, as Liz accused him of doing? That would hurt a child.

Honey West, that is a possibility.  But he said that right after Red asked Liz whether she was OK, showing concern.  So I took it as physical harm.  Not that Red was directly responsible for hurting his daughter.  It could have been something that was a result of another action he (Red) took, or did not take.  But I think something happened to a child.  I think that all the emphasis on wounded, special needs children and other stories may reflect back on that.

The question for me is, how did Kirk know that?  
 

Last edited by lara1 (5/25/2017 9:14 pm)

Honey West wrote:

That also gives new meaning to Tom's snide remark to Red about him not approving of the wedding because "he didn't ask Daddy's permission." Has Tom always known who Red was? And did Red know he knew?

Gah!  I KNOW!  And if Tom did always know who Red was--unless he's somehow in on the secret of protecting Liz from the truth like Red is/was--then I almost feel like his character would be fairly close to irredeemable.  If nothing more, than just for the fact that he's so good at faking what his true motivations are.  

Figure with a character like Reddington, we get it--he's the anti-hero who sometimes does horrible things.  But, at the end of the day, he's our anti-hero, and we're still gonna root for him--if nothing more than for the fact that we can trust he's been fighting the same fight since we were introduced; there's a certain level of honesty with Red, in the sense that what you see is what you get.  

But Tom?  That crazy kid's been all over the place--morally, ethically, and everywhere in between.  Even when Tom is out and about doing "good" things, I'm still hesitant to trust him.  Season 1 did a great job of setting him up to be that kind of character, and even though he's consistently made some very right choices by Liz, my knee-jerk reaction is don't trust him.  And then if his actions turn out to be legit, I still narrow my eyes, and think this time--this time you did things right.  But it's like I'm subconsciously always waiting for the return of jerk-face Tom; like that cat's always hiding just beneath the surface.     

Honey West!  A couple of things.  First off, congrats on your new full-time job!  I hope it's going well!  I have about fifty bazillion things to keep track of at my new job, so I go all about confused more often than not.  ^-^  I know I missed commenting on a few of your points, and I just now found some of them--but I imagine I'm missing even more.

The first dealy-o, is comment #182 about Katarina wearing the same clothes from Cape May.  Gah!  Phenomenal catch!  And it would very much imply that Red was with her on that day.    I'm trying to work through in my mind just how close Katarina and Kate were.  I have no doubt that Katarina trusted Kate--but I'm just wondering with how much?  If Katarina were in love with Red, and if they had an ultimate game plan in place, I'm not 100% sure she would have trusted Kate with that information.  Would have taken her along for the ride, sure--but not told her any of the details.  I'm leaning towards that outcome, just because Katarina implied to Kate that Red was just a fling--something exciting, and that's it.  And also, because Kate didn't seem too excited to meet Red, the first go around; she hadn't been privy to any of his redeemable qualities or characteristics.

That's an interesting thought that Red and Dom could parallel Tom and Red.  I think in a lot of ways Tom is very much like Red used to be, back in the day--which is one of the reasons why Red doesn't like him.  But I think Dom very much likes Red. I don't know.  I suspect it's just going to be one of the fifty bazillion things we have to sit back, and watch it play out.  But it is something to ponder.  ;)

Posts like #210, I think, are the reason I find myself forgetting to comment on your posts!  What I mean is, I agree with everything.  

Honey West wrote:

well, deadskie13, twins have been part of the story before with Lord Baltimore. I used to wonder if Liz had a twin, but Requiem seems to rule that out. So does Red have a twin? We know so little about him, that it is certainly possible. I'll have to chew on that one for awhile and see if I see anything.
All this time I think about Kirk saying to Red, "You remember what she DID, not who she was." And that is pretty much the way we have Red presented to us. We have seen some of the things that he DID, but we still don't know who he is/was. 

That's one of the things I'm most interested in, as the story unravels--how much of the Red we see today, and how much he's always been there, versus how much he had to change due to circumstances.  It'll be fun to see what route they take, as I can see it going either way--although I must confess, I don't ever picture Red as ever having been the goody-two-shoes season one Ressler boy scout type.  There's too many stories involving swiping pastries and smoking as a little-little kid and such; something tells me he may have been the sort of trouble-maker who went into the Navy as a means to straighten one's self out.  Not that that ::achem:: seems to have worked very well.  

lara1 wrote:

deadskie13 #222 - I was never fully sold on the "Liz is not Masha" theory though I did think if made to work, it would be a cool twist.  Some people thought they saw a twin in the window at the Summer Palace, but I didn't get that at all - just the images of little Liz and adult Liz in the window.

The dialog in the finale convinced me that Liz is in fact Masha.  Red speaking to Dom and speaking to Kate, referring to Masha.  And I agree that Dom and Kate were both still seeing Liz as little Masha.  Red, was too, I believe, until he found out that she had faked her death.  That she was an adult with her own plans and motivations.  He did start to back off and no longer called her Lizzie, although that wasn't the only reason.

I do think there is a second girl in the mix, though.  Either a sister of Liz or Red's "real" or "other" daughter, depending on whether you think "old" Red is the same as "current Red".  And that daughter was hurt in some way, based on Kirk's comment to Red about hurting his daughter, and Naomi's kind of knee jerk reaction to him when he asked about Jennifer - I'm not letting you near by daughter, or I'm not letting you touch my daughter, something like that, which may (or may not) indicate she wanted to keep Jennifer away from Red, safely away.  IMO of course.

I don't think Jennifer is Red's daughter, at least not current Red's daughter.  I could be wrong.  But I think there is a daughter/another daughter who was hurt as a child. 

 

I most certainly agree!  I definitely think there's another little girl, too--I just think we now know that Masha and Lizzy are one and the same.  And I, too, believe this other daughter was hurt badly--I believe she was killed, and that there isn't any question in Red's mind of her demise, only the circumstances behind it.

Also-also, I agree, and I don't think Jennifer is Red's daughter--step-daughter, sure, but not biological.  Mostly, because I can't imagine if Jennifer were his biological daughter, that she would be in any less danger than Liz.  I mean sure, her mother wouldn't have been into anything heavy (that we know of)--but something tells me being Red's daughter, alone, would be enough to get the vultures circling.  Therefore, it just doesn't make sense that he wouldn't have done everything for her that he's done for Elizabeth.  I don't buy into the deal where he can't find her, I mean, as I'm convinced Glenn can sniff out anyone, given enough time.  

Tuxie400 wrote:

As for unrequited love, my idea was that Katarina did fall in love with Raymond, but Raymond did not love her. She was spying on him, and he was spying on her. The reason it pained Raymond that he was the only man Katarina ever loved was because he was playing her. A child was the accidental outcome of this spying liason. Raymond loved Carla. Although he wanted Masha/Liz, his child, he didn't want to be a family with Katarina. Maybe all this came out on fire night, and that's why Katarina decided Raymond was a "bad man"  Maybe he even notified authorites who came to arrest Katarina that night. After all in Kate's Requiem memory, Katarina said there were "too many people, shouting and fighting."

Another nice possibility to the eventual backstory!  I don't think I'm leaning in any one direction, as of yet--but I kind of think of Katarina as a Tom, almost, in the sense that she seems very dedicated to her job, and able to play multiple roles all at once.  Therefore, I don't quite trust her.   

Honey West wrote:

I'm looking forward to seeing what opens up for the plots now that Liz not only knows her relationship to Red, but seems to pretty much have accepted him as family, in spite of, as she said, what he did to her and what he did to himself to get to this point. She's certainly under no illusions about what he does and what he's capable of doing. She's had four years to study him pretty closely. And she's a psychologist. He's a violent and dangerous man. But he loves her unconditionally. So now that the writers have pretty much wiped the board clean, except for a few odds and ends like body-in-the-suitcase and Red's secret past, he is essentially starting over. He has some allies, but his criminal empire is largely dismantled, or at least that's what we've been led to believe. Aside from Dembe and now the Task Force, most of his people are gone. Killing off Baz was the last. If he's really dead, of course. So will Red choose to rebuild his criminal empire? Or will he choose another path. If he can even do that. His goal of protecting Liz and now Agnes will always be there. But how will he accomplish that goal now? Season 5 is going to be very interesting, if they handle it right.

Me, too!  Jeez-o-peetz!  This show is really good at reinventing itself!  On top of everything else, I wonder how Cooper and Co. are going to proceed?  After all, they were just told by Panabaker, that they're pretty much on their own.  They work for the government, and are doing super secret things--but when push comes to shove, no one's going to look out for them.  Maybe something similar happened to Red?