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Been looking into Seaduke. Besides being malware, and it's too recent to have any bearing, it has been the name of a few ships. A cargo ship, an oil tanker and a tugboat at least. The tanker was built in1992, some are much older. The tanker was part of a Baltic fleet.
Another fun one is "Seaduke" is the name of a woodcut by artist Robert Cook that was also done in 1992. It was inspired by Duke Ellington, not a Russian spy. LOL!
I wondered, too, if it might be spelled differently, so I was looking up words like sidduq. The only thing I could really find, besides it being various peoples' first or last names is a reference to Sidduq ha-Din, a Jewish graveyard prayer. Graveyard???
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Tuxie400 wrote:
lara1 - Good list of symbols and themes! Remember how earlier in the season we noticed the repetition of snakes, fish, and birds. There were birds heard chirping at Tansi Farms and seagulls? flying when Liz met Kaplan by the water.
I had a thought today that the removal of eyeballs both opened and closed the season. Remember Estaban creepily taking his eyeballs out?
Oh! Good catch on the eyeball thing, Tuxie400!
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Rori wrote:
Hey ole' pals. It is I, Rori, checking in from the world of RL. Have I been following you BLRs all season? Yes. I. Have. Yet, only now have I pulled it together to get registered and hop on to add to your characteristically fascinating discussions.
Swimming in Thoughts, I am only going to write out one, because y'all manage by telepathy to convey much of what I might write at any time on any given topic. But it's a Tom Thought. As scene fades to black with Tom holding my grandmother's suitcase, I was thinking that whatever he is inclined to do with that bag of bones must be informed by his recent experiences with his own uber-functional FOA (family of origin). What a dissonant time that has been! Good-Mommy/Bad-Daddy...or is it vice-versa?? Nothing turned out to be what it seemed for him; so how will his current state incline him regarding his role in Liz's blood-parent-unravelling-mysteries process.
I'm inclined to think it might make him more vigilant in protecting her. I do not believe there is anything nefarious about his being the person Kaplan chose to get the suitcase. Some people on the Internets seem to think this indicates something chronically creepy about Tom-Jacob. But I think Kaplan leaving him with this task is very organic, given what they've gone through in the past "year" especially. She has simply passed the "Protect Masha/Elizabeth" baton onto a natural successor.
But people have their own notions of "protection," so my suspicion is that Tom, being lately burned by the two faces of Dad, coupled with his perennial hatred of Reddington, is not going to embrace the newly minted DNA results wholeheartedly; nevertheless, with Liz's relief and enthusiasm about the DNA match, he's also not going to want to crush her. So, I align with those who are doubtful that he is going to share those bones with her anytime soon. I think that as Season 5 opens, while Reddington learns how to shop at Cosco/Aldi's and ride the CitiBus, the Tom story will be him figuring out the truth about those bones.
Thanks for "listening" and for being here!
Good thoughts, Rori! And glad to see you here! (Love your tag line, LOL!) that is all very logical, re: Tom. I don't think we are going to find out who is in that suitcase any time soon.
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Regarding the scene between Red and Liz. I know we would have loved to see a big, emotional father/daughter reunion scene. Maybe we will get that eventually. But now was just not the time. Mostly, I think Liz needs more time to process this long-suspected, but now-confirmed fact. On the positive side, she did not turn away from him. I think she knew it all along, so that made it easier. Red, on the other hand, was still telling her she could walk away. So he, obviously was still unsure how she would react. He told her once before that all she had to do was tell him to get lost and he would fade away and out of her life. But she didn't. He told her a long time ago,that there were truths she'd have to discover for herself. Well, she did. I think his biggest fear was that once she discovered that particular truth that she would reject him. Look what lengths she went to in order to escape from him. That act is what has led to this point where Red finds himself virtually alone, "illiquid", his closest allies dead or estranged from him. His world seemingly in ruins. You could argue that he brought it upon himself. But the match that lit the fuse was Liz's fake death. So it's not too surprising that finally we get to this big moment and there's still not this big love fest happening. I think they are still,too wary of each other for that. They have a lot of baggage to sort through before they can get to that big scene.
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Great comments to everyone!
I can't remember who said what right now, but my opinion on Cooper taking the sample from the shirt in storage is because he was thinking Red had changed his DNA and he wanted the original he had that Red probably didn't know he had.
Honey West, I think it was you.. I also felt like that was the way he would have reacted. It reminded me of Liz telling him he was so damaged.
I re-watched Kaplan Conclusion, Cape May and then The Artax network. I wanted to see the interaction with Dom again after knowing what we now know or think we know. I recommend it in that order to anyone.
Now about those bones in the suitcase....
I spent a lot of time going over a lot of pictures I got. There are a few things I see and a few I do not know what they are?
One thing I know I see is rope. They were tied in a way to keep the body scrunched up to fit in there from what I can tell because there seams to be a lot of it. The body is very, very scrunched up. Actually, I am not sure it isn't cut up and bound together so it would fit in there?
I understand that even with decay and shifting over 25 years it could be somewhat in a disarray or from being carried, but that is a twisted up mess in my opinion!
I also see something that looks like round metal. I am not sure if there is not a baby with an adult?? Could whoever it was have been pregnant?
The bones are cut. I do not see hands or feet.....Maybe they are removed or are under the pile. I am wondering if there are any teeth, but we wont know that until season 5. Those things are often removed so someone cant be identified.
And now my eyes hurt! So I am going to go to
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Yes, eastcoast, you are right. It was kind of like how he reacted when Liz told him he was so damaged that he couldn't ask for or accept help. It's that look he gets when someone is getting uncomfortably close to a truth about him.
Good work with the bones. I haven't had a chance to go back and look at them since I realized on Thursday night that they had been cut up. Rope, eh? That's probably the thing I couldn't figure out what it was. I also thought that the body had been cut up so it would fit inside a suitcase. I wonder how long it had been buried at the farm. I suspect it was somewhere else for awhile before it was buried there. Nothing seemed to have dirt on it. Not on the suitcase and I couldn't see any in the suitcase. We've seen a lot of bodies in barrels lately...
You know, I was thinking. Suppose Katarina had been accidentally killed, but stories continued to be circulated about her to make people think she was still alive. So she became this sort of legendary character, a ghost.
Last edited by Honey West (5/23/2017 1:54 am)
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Honey West wrote:
Yes, eastcoast, you are right. It was kind of like how he reacted when Liz told him he was so damaged that he couldn't ask for or accept help. It's that look he gets when someone is getting uncomfortably close to a truth about him.
Good work with the bones. I haven't had a chance to go back and look at them since I realized on Thursday night that they had been cut up. Rope, eh? That's probably the thing I couldn't figure out what it was. I also thought that the body had been cut up so it would fit inside a suitcase. I wonder how long it had been buried at the farm. I suspect it was somewhere else for awhile before it was buried there. Nothing seemed to have dirt on it. Not on the suitcase and I couldn't see any in the suitcase. We've seen a lot of bodies in barrels lately...
You know, I was thinking. Suppose Katarina had been accidentally killed, but stories continued to be circulated about her to make people think she was still alive. So she became this sort of legendary character, a ghost.
Eastcoast - thanks for your take on the bones. You can see that the ribs and the long bone in the center are cleanly and smoothly cut. It looks like some of the remains are wrapped like a mummy with a narrow, flat strip of cloth.
Honey West - Remember the Pirate Jack Sparrow theory... I always thought either Red or Katarina were like that.. different people acted in the name of some infamous person... like Edgar Legat. So kind of like your theory. So it also makes me wonder if Red (and possibly Kaplan) made sure to get Katarina's body and dispose of it so no one would know she was actually dead. And those are the bones in the suitcase.
The Suitcase: Did anyone notice the bones are in one half of the suitcase and the top interior is covered by fabric? I remember suitcases like this. You can see that the opening is equally center of the suitcase. In the old days, there would be a firm, fabric flap and on that half of the suitcase you could fill with garments or toiletries, then you could snap the fabric flap in and then fill the bottom half of the suitcase with clothing, in this case, bones. Now being this is the Blacklist, this could be an oversight or it could be that there's something on the other side of that suitcase. What that might be is pure conjecture. The bone side seems to have left slight stains on this separating fabric.
Just an observation. Wonder if anyone else has any thoughts about it.
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Quick thought: do we know for sure it's Sea Duke? Not: C. Duke (first initial and surname) ?
Glad to "see" you, Rori. I hope you'll have some time to contribute. I look forward to reading your thoughts!
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That's what I was wondering, Iowa Watcher. Looking at other phonetic possibilities for Sea Duke. That's where I found sidduq hadin, the Jewish graveyard prayer. It is uttered after the casket is lowered into the grave and everyone can say a few words. The prayer is a declaration and acceptance of the Divine judgement and a prayer to the Creator to have mercy upon those of us who remain alive. Kind of fitting to what seems to be an overall theme running through the show.
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Another thought I had about box body is that if it is Katarina, then Red and Kate may have taken her body and hidden it as leverage against unknown powers that threatened he and Liz. In this scenario it could be that Katarina was accidentally killed, but it was in the interests of everyone involved on the KGB or Cabal side to have people believe she was still alive. Her death could have been covered up, thus the sightings of her in Prague and elsewhere could have been planted to make certain people believe that she was still alive. She was a secret keeper so maybe it would have blown up too many operations if it got out that she was dead. So then you have Red, who knows that she is dead. He becomes a liability to,those people. They probably threaten him and also Masha. He might not care about himself, but nobody threatens her! So, since her body was never found, it leaves open whether or not she is really dead. The other side can pretend she's still alive, but hiding, and keeping her secrets, which are probably being used to blackmail key people on the other side. But Red knows differently, and likely so does Masha, if they were all there when she died. Could be the real reason her memories were replaced, I'm thinking. To,protect her from even knowing about Katarina. Maybe it was part of the deal Red had to make to protect her from them. So how does Red protect himself so that he can protect Lizzie? He probably knows where her body is. What better insurance than being in possession of the only evidence that Katarina is truly dead than to keep her body as insurance. Sort of like he did with the Fulcrum. So he and Kate obtain her body, if they didn't already have it, and bury it at Tansi Farms, for safekeeping. Even in death Katarina has become one of the pieces in Reds big chess game with those enemies that threaten he and Liz. Maybe knowing where the body is buried, and that it even still exists has been his ultimate "Fulcrum"? Kate's exposure of it puts them all in terrible peril.
That's if it is Katarina's remains.
That scenario just popped into my head today here at work, so I had to jot it down before I forgot it!
Ps. It also works if Katarina was a double agent working for the US side.
Last edited by Honey West (5/23/2017 3:19 pm)
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Honey West - your Theory actually goes together with the idea of a Captain Jack Sparrow type of spy. In other words, the Legend, as it were. In so the Soviets could continue to push forward the legend in order to keep their enemies on their toes. I actually really like this idea you've come up with. It makes a whole lot more sense when red says to Kaplan what have you done?
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Maybe even Cee Duke ? Yeah, I'm reaching. Sea Duke is probably right.
Honey West, you come up with the most interesting stuff! I didn't know that about the prayer, and your theory might be right.
Dare I say it? If KR is dead, who sent the painting?
Perhaps it's possible that Red and Kaplan think they have KR's bones, but maybe they are the bones from someone the same size and KR is alive.
I can't let that go, yet. I think she's alive.
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Iowa Watcher - I was pretty sure Jon Bokenkamp once said that Kirk sent the painting to Red. I could be wrong though. Wouldn't be the first time ;-)
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You could be right, IW, she could be alive and Red only thinks those are her bones, he's been fooled all along and everything he's built has been a lie.
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Rori - "She has simply passed the "Protect Masha/Elizabeth" baton onto a natural successor." I really like how you worded that, and I agree with your thoughts about Tom investigating who's in the suitcase and not telling Liz about it right away. Welcome back!
Honey West - I enjoyed your further sleuthing on the Seaduke name. Good thinking on the alternate spelling! I like the graveyard connection.
Last edited by Tuxie400 (5/23/2017 5:09 pm)
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Eastcoast - I don't think the rope ties the bones. The rope is attached to the thing in the middle of the bones, above the sawed sternum. You mention the metal thing. The metal has black gears on each end. There is also a screw-like thing and the rope. At first I thought the object was fishing reel. But now I think it's a pulley of some sort. There is one kind of pulley called a worm wheel that would have one gear and the screw like object. Then I started thinking maybe it was a pulley for a well, and the body was originally hidden in a well. But I couldn't find a pulley like that for a well. Then I researched anchor pulleys and sailboat sail pulleys. No exact matches. But I'm willing to bet the pulley plays a role in how the body was originally hidden. By the way, a pully has a fulcrum !
Honey West - I find your theory about needing to hide Katarina's bones interesting, I think if they are Katarina's bones, she was killed accidentally (like Ressler killed Hitchin). But I don't really understand the part about the Cabal and the Soviets needing people to think she was alive or how it would put Masha/Liz at risk. But like Red told Dom, it was complicated. And I like the idea that Red kept the bones for leverage.
Last edited by Tuxie400 (5/23/2017 5:34 pm)
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Lots of great thoughts!
I have been thinking the following about what Kate was going to show Liz (whatever it was):
It would be something that, in Kate's mind, would "prove" to Liz that Red was no good for her - drive a wedge between them so that Liz would not want to have Red in her life. Kate figured, if she can't remove Red her way, this other thing, whatever it was, would.
So the "secret" that Kate was going to show Liz did not have to do with Red being Liz's father - as that might drive them closer together - not further apart. (And maybe not true - heh heh)
So, something that would drive them apart AND be the reason why Red came into Liz's life. And its not paternity. And it has to be something that occurred around that time, or be related to something that occurred around that time.
In Requiem, the only thing that Red said to Kate before walking into the FBI building was that the forces from katarina's past were circling Liz, something like that. So something was going on at the time, related to katarina, that makes Red want to come into Liz's life to help keep her safe.
Well that is my thought process thus far, I haven't go too much further than that. But what could be a force from Katarina's past circling Liz? It could be anything. I don't think it was Kirk because he still didn't know about Liz. So, what from Katarina's past, and a person or persons who knew about Liz, were coming after her?
I haven't figured it out, but could those bones be from that time period? Were they moved or buried around that time? We all think the suitcase doesn't look like its been buried for 25 years. Maybe its only recently buried? I also know nothing about how quickly a body would decompose once buried. Could the killing of that person be more recent, i.e. around the time that Red surrendered?
Having said all of that, I tend to think that the "secret" is very old, or at least something buried that relates to a very old secret. Something that would horrify Liz so much, that Red can't really believe that Kate would resort to telling the secret to Liz. Is it something unforgiveable?
I'm no closer to any answer, but maybe my "out loud" reasoning will spark an idea from someone else! LOL
Last edited by lara1 (5/23/2017 6:19 pm)
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So - my own thoughts have given rise to another idea - from me! LOL
in Season 3, Kate talked to Red about how he was "so desperate" to know her (Liz). Dom berates Red for not being able to keep away. Something was driving Red to enter Liz's life at that moment.
this is complete speculation, but suppose something happened around that time to "another" daughter. Either a sister of Liz (if there was one), the other girl from fire house, or maybe even Red's daughter/other daughter? Could it have been related to events of 25 years ago? Revenge exacted years later? Liz was his "second chance" (per Red's words in the pilot) to help save a child, another victim of his/katerina's past - maybe after his own daughter.
Maybe not, but maybe something that compelled Red to make sure that he did not lose his daughter/other daughter/other innocent child (trying to include various theories here!)? Which then resulted in a kind of double soccer punch when Liz "died" - maybe he'd lost "another" daughter despite all his attempts to keep her safe. He failed twice. He lost his "second chance". If he'd been compelled to enter her life so to make sure that he absolutely did not lose her after he lost his other daughter or was responsible for another child being lost?
I keep thinking about how Red said to Dom that they almost lost Masha once, he wasn't going to let it happen again. On the surface, a simple statement. But maybe a deeper one? Maybe they had already lost a "masha" (i.e. other Masha) prior to Liz. And they are not going to lose another "daughter".
I don't know it might have nothing to do with that. But something made Red desperate to make absolutely certain that nothing happened to Liz. Just kicking around some thoughts......
Last edited by lara1 (5/23/2017 6:46 pm)
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Tuxie400 wrote:
Eastcoast - I don't think the rope ties the bones. The rope is attached to the thing in the middle of the bones, above the sawed sternum. You mention the metal thing. The metal has black gears on each end. There is also a screw-like thing and the rope. At first I thought the object was fishing reel. But now I think it's a pulley of some sort. There is one kind of pulley called a worm wheel that would have one gear and the screw like object. Then I started thinking maybe it was a pulley for a well, and the body was originally hidden in a well. But I couldn't find a pulley like that for a well. Then I researched anchor pulleys and sailboat sail pulleys. No exact matches. But I'm willing to bet the pulley plays a role in how the body was originally hidden. By the way, a pully has a fulcrum
!
Honey West - I find your theory about needing to hide Katarina's bones interesting, I think if they are Katarina's bones, she was killed accidentally (like Ressler killed Hitchin). But I don't really understand the part about the Cabal and the Soviets needing people to think she was alive or how it would put Masha/Liz at risk. But like Red told Dom, it was complicated. And I like the idea that Red kept the bones for leverage.
Pulley and fulcrum. Good thinking!
I was jotting that down on my lunch half hour today, barely enough time to eat, much less type! I see Katarina as what Red called her, a secret keeper. I wonder, if during all of her career with the KGB if she wasn't working for US intelligence. We've wondered that before. But what if one of her jobs was to test US security. How easily could she get secrets out of US intelligence operatives? Maybe Red was really a test. Of him. But she could also have been working for both sides. She said that if the KGB knew about her and Raymond, then it meant that US intelligence knew, too. How would both sides know so quickly?
But the main thing I need to more fully work out is why would it be so important to keep the Legend of Katarina Rostova alive, and who would gain or lose the most by doing so, even after 25 years or so. To the point where Red would gain some sort of advantage by knowing where the body was buried. Unless the body is the key to preventing even worse things from happening should it ever be found. I wonder if Red told Kirk that he knew where Katarina was. Not what condition she might be in, but just knowing where she was might be enough to stop Kirk from killing him.
A lot of things have been turned upside down in those last couple of episodes. Laurel Hitchin was a pretty high-up Cabal member as well as the National Security Advisor. She is about to disappear completely, just like several other high-end intelligence people over the past four years. How, and will, that affect Red's "place at the table"? Especially in his current position.
The biggest question, though, is how does all of this affect Liz's safety. Because that is the most important thing to Red.
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