The Blacklist Refugees

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5/22/2017 3:27 pm  #301


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

Tatiana #296, as usual we are pretty much on the same page. I just wonder if it would have been possible for them to wrap it up with Katarina as being the ultimate 🎯. But as you know, I also believe that Red has a bigger mission that is far from complete. I wonder when we will see the Map of Doom show up again? His preference of illiquid to broke makes me wonder if he's had these setbacks before, but has no doubt that he can rebuild and keep going. Maybe this one was more damaging, but it will be fun to see how he gets back on his feet again. He's still got Dembe and Glen, who seems to actually like Red, not just his money. And Marvin Gerard. But even better, he now has Liz.


“I am exactly who I am. And I can assure you, I’m a far more interesting Raymond Reddington than Raymond Reddington ever was."
 

5/22/2017 3:45 pm  #302


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

Honey West wrote:

it will be fun to see how he gets back on his feet again. He's still got Dembe and Glen, who seems to actually like Red, not just his money. And Marvin Gerard. But even better, he now has Liz.

Good point. Showrunners are saying season 5 will be with a Reddington lacking money and resources, who knows, he may even have to stay at the Sheraton!!! 
 


"I could tell you how to win a marathon, but you're assuming it's a 26.2 mile race. It's not. It's a 6.2 mile race that begins at mile 20." Raymond Reddington
     Thread Starter
 

5/22/2017 4:17 pm  #303


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

Tatiana wrote:

My take on this finale:

We have LOTS of information that the producers may have only intended to share when the series ended. Remember, they had to do two shots, one for the season finale and one for the series finale. They probably did the series finale in such a way that most of the actors would not know what the Big Secret is.

And we have a whole summer to dissect it all (bag o'bones included).

What if we're looking at this all wrong? What if it doesn't matter if Reddington is Liz's biological father?
What if Reddington is deep undercover, still trying to capture the spy who went out into the cold - Katarina?

Her story is so vague. Even before she went into the ocean at Cape May she could be anyone to everyone, but they all thought she was just a figure of someone's imagination.

Perhaps in this case, Liz was "chosen" by Reddington so that eventually, he could draw Katarina out? "You remember what she did, not who she was"
I think Red and Carla were a happily married couple, but Red became so immersed in this mission she "hardly recognized" him. It wasn't even so much his physicality as it is who he's become.

And Red is not out for revenge. He has a mission. To keep Elizabeth safe and to keep himself free.
Why? 
Because he needs to make sure Elizabeth stays alive and he needs to be free so he can go about his mission. 

Did Katarina target his family? Did Katarina cause his daughter to become disfigured or even dead? 

I don't have time to sort all this out right now, but the most compelling evidence that he is deep undercover is that he was never captured. All those times Cooper and Ressler were after him, poof *** he just disappeared. He's protected, we know that. I suspect Cooper is in on it and possibly Ressler to a small degree and that really goads Donald because Red is flaunting his criminality.

Anyhoo, it seems to make more sense of the puzzle in my opinion. It's not necessary to have an impostor. 

What I do think is that the woman we know to be Elizabeth may or may not be Masha. They 'branded' her with the scar so that they would know it was their 'chosen one'.
And I believe she's meant to be bait for Katarina, 

We shall see. Like I said, lots of time this summer to ruminate.

Ressler may have embarked as a typical "boy scout" FBI agent (Parminder & Samar weren't) but his exposure to various hi-officed criminals like Senator Connolly, Christine Lahti's character and even Alan Alda's character would lead him to believe that better criminals are far superior (and have a better moral code) than sinister political, cabinet & police leaders. I think his respect for Reddington was slow to conceive, he loathed Tom Keen - but his respect grew as he engaged with both on matters of life and death - and found out they all had his back on many an occasion - something that couldn't be said for Connolly, Lahti, Alda, etc.


Red: I can only lead you to the truth. I can’t make you believe it
 

5/22/2017 4:55 pm  #304


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

Although Kaplan cleaned out Red's bank accounts, she clearly didn't spend all that money. So it's somewhere. I can see part of next season being Red's (and Elizabeth's?) goal to track it down. Maybe Tom gets involved in tracking it down (it would be in his self-interest!), and so he's conflicted about showing Liz the contents of the suitcase, afraid it would separate her from Red and his money.

 

5/22/2017 7:05 pm  #305


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

Tatiana #296-  I agree that there is no need for Red to be an imposter., and he may still be some mission.. But after the finale episodes, I'm convinced more than ever that Liz and Masha are the same person.  I thought with Red calling Liz by the name of Masha to both Kaplan and Dom in the finale episodes, the writers were clarifying that Liz and Masha are the same person.

As much as I would love to see Katarina appear at some point, I doubt that she will this late in the game. She's been given a lot of bait - especially with Liz being on the run with Red in Season 3. I really thought that she would show up in this year's finale. And maybe she did, if those bones are hers.
 

 

5/22/2017 8:06 pm  #306


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

Tuxie400 wrote:

Tatiana #296-  I agree that there is no need for Red to be an imposter., and he may still be some mission.. But after the finale episodes, I'm convinced more than ever that Liz and Masha are the same person.  I thought with Red calling Liz by the name of Masha to both Kaplan and Dom in the finale episodes, the writers were clarifying that Liz and Masha are the same person.

As much as I would love to see Katarina appear at some point, I doubt that she will this late in the game. She's been given a lot of bait - especially with Liz being on the run with Red in Season 3. I really thought that she would show up in this year's finale. And maybe she did, if those bones are hers.
 

I think this theory allows for Liz and masha to be the same person. But I do think something happened to another girl/daughter, ballerina girl.


"I could tell you how to win a marathon, but you're assuming it's a 26.2 mile race. It's not. It's a 6.2 mile race that begins at mile 20." Raymond Reddington
     Thread Starter
 

5/22/2017 8:36 pm  #307


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

JackPow wrote:

That's what got me. We finally get this moment we've been waiting for since the series began. Liz finally discovering that Red is her father and confronting him with the info. I think we all envisioned a perfect James Spader acting moment. Perhaps one of those incredible emotional Red monologues and a real watershed moment like "yes, it's true. That's why I've cared so much....." yadda yadda yadda. 

JackPow - its interesting that you should say that, because I kind of felt the same way.  Its what raises some questions in my mind.

I do think that in terms of the scene itself, it was outstandingly well done - Megan and James were superb and the whole scene kind of lifted itself off the screen, it was so charged and intense.  But I did wonder afterwards why there wasn't more of a reaction, some small monologue from Red, some sharing of emotion as he had with Dembe when he gave him the box.  

I do agree with those who have noticed the parallel of this scene with the end of Tom Connolly when Liz "remembers everything".  There, Red was frozen in not knowing, and dreading, what Liz had found out.  Here, at first he's trying to understand and process it - fair enough.  He does look at the DNA report fairly quickly and casts it aside.  I also do think he's a bit frozen in waiting for what is next - what else does Liz know?    But after it was clear what she knew and how she reacted, there still wasn't any real emotional response or words, even.  Still, the look on Red's face is one of emotion.  But also, Red neither confirms nor denies it, whereas in the past we have seen him voice strong positive affirmations in the face of the "truth".

Then moments later, we hear the conversation between Red and Dembe, where Dembe says something like, "so you didn't deny it?" and Red replies 'No", and it seems a quick almost casual conversation before they move onto other things.  With that big of a moment and revelation, I would have  expected something more.  I mean, if Red really is Liz's father and he sought to keep that from her for all her life, and she finds out, I would have thought that more of a big deal.

Anyway, I think we all bring different perceptions to our viewing.  If I were absolutely convinced that Red is her father, I would have probably taken away something different from that scene.  But I haven't been convinced since probably sometime in Season 2.  I'm not saying he's not her father.  But I do think the door that opens onto other possibilities has not been fully shut.

Last edited by lara1 (5/22/2017 8:38 pm)

 

5/22/2017 8:40 pm  #308


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

JackPow wrote:

Oh yea, I definitely think the real Raymond Reddington is absolutely Liz's biological father. I just wish we got more of an authentic response from our Red. Think of that emotional moment with Red by Dembe's bedside recently (with "the mystery goodbye box") or with Madeline Pratt in the prison cell, so many of those fantastic James Spader moments throughout the series. But we didn't get that this time. Hmmm..

JackPow - yes, that is my thought.  I think Raymond Reddington is Liz's father.  But it "our" Red that person.  hmmm
 

 

5/22/2017 8:45 pm  #309


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

Tuxie400 wrote:

Any thoughts about whether Seaduke might our Red, if Red is an imposter? This person was a Russian operative who Counterintelligence was closing in on. Maybe taking the identity of Reddington was better than what was in store for him (if he is a him and not Katarina).

Tuxie400 - that's an interesting idea, I haven't heard that one.  Well its interesting that throughout the series we have loads and loads and LOADS of sea and water references when it comes to Red and, just generally.  so is he Seaduke?  Its possible.  But if he is, then what explains his attachment to Liz?  I guess it depends on who Seaduke really is.  

I always appreciate you bringing ideas and thoughts here, and sometimes those from other sites.  I'm a bit frustrated at the moment as for some reason I can no longer access TBExposed as a public Facebook site.  This happens every so often, then seems to right itself and I can access it again to view comments.  LOL, what a time to miss out!    

 

5/22/2017 8:58 pm  #310


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

LDJones wrote:

Although Kaplan cleaned out Red's bank accounts, she clearly didn't spend all that money. So it's somewhere. I can see part of next season being Red's (and Elizabeth's?) goal to track it down. Maybe Tom gets involved in tracking it down (it would be in his self-interest!), and so he's conflicted about showing Liz the contents of the suitcase, afraid it would separate her from Red and his money.

LD Jones - my thoughts too.  The challenge will be to track the money.  I wonder if Red will ask Aram to help?
Also, once Kaplan's authority was removed from the accounts, I'm not sure the banks were right in moving money out of the accounts.  I'm not sure what their liability is, and whether they are bound to return the money regardless of how Kaplan set up the new accounts (i.e. out of Red's reach).

Red also has physical assets, hence his illiquidity.  Lots of real estate, art, other possessions, stuff he has squirreled away, unless Kaplan has been able to get hold of those as well (and emptied out every single one of his "hidden safes" worldwide. ) 

I guess we'll see.  But I wonder if Red will be as fun to watch if he is no longer traveling by private jet, drinking fine wine, staying in 5 star hotels, purchasing herds of thoroughbred horses, and traveling with suitcases full of hundreds of thousands of dollars.  LOL!
 

Last edited by lara1 (5/22/2017 8:59 pm)

 

5/22/2017 9:11 pm  #311


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

I just had another thought re Season 5.  It would be cool if they could do a sort of spin on Season 3 - instead of Liz and Red on the run with limited resources, with Red carefully constructing a "way back" for Liz through his Blacklister plan, this would be kind of Red on the run while trying to get back his empire, again though blacklisters.  That might be fun.  And we've seen how he's increased his empire using the same tactics.

 

5/22/2017 9:12 pm  #312


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

I guess I should say.. the DNA would be conclusively male or female.....

 

5/22/2017 9:53 pm  #313


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

Somehow, I can't picture Red shopping at Walmart and then going home and fixing Hamburger Helper.

 

 

5/22/2017 10:16 pm  #314


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

IowaWatcher wrote:

Somehow, I can't picture Red shopping at Walmart and then going home and fixing Hamburger Helper.

 

Hilarious!

 

5/22/2017 10:31 pm  #315


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

"Highlights" of the Finale - did you find each of them?  

Ep. 4.21
-A guy playing solitaire on a bright green computer screen (card game; and harks back to those bright green screens we saw in Requiem)
-At the sports club, a huge fish tank, the plan was to have "live" mermaids
-Red gives Ressler the name, Frank Sturgeon
-the sign at Tansi Farms says "fresh apples" next to a picture of red apples (shades of the Director)
 
ep. 4.22
-Brimley gives Red a snake called Betsy (derivative of Elizabeth); its meal is two white rabbits
-Kaplan leaves Gale a bag with a tuna sandwich and a phone
-Red is staying in Room #3 when Liz confronts him with her DNA news
-yet more views of those open blind slats that remind me of the louvers in the closet door in the fire memories
-and of course "Seaduke" 

I need to think back over the use of all of the snakes this season.  And a snake called Betsy?  Makes me think again if Liz actually has her own agenda and is playing everyone.  WE won't find out for a long time!
 

Last edited by lara1 (5/22/2017 10:32 pm)

 

5/22/2017 10:50 pm  #316


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

IowaWatcher wrote:

Somehow, I can't picture Red shopping at Walmart and then going home and fixing Hamburger Helper.

 

But maybe Target in the diaper aisle?


"I could tell you how to win a marathon, but you're assuming it's a 26.2 mile race. It's not. It's a 6.2 mile race that begins at mile 20." Raymond Reddington
     Thread Starter
 

5/22/2017 11:09 pm  #317


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

lara1 - Under the Sea Duke as Red theory, Sea Duke may have been another one of the men bewitched by Katarina who was led to believe Masha/Liz was his child. And to spin off someone else's theory, what if some of the blood on Reddington's shirt was Sea Duke's and that's what matched Lizzie's DNA? 

On the opposite end of the spectrum, Sea Duke could  be the arch enemy of Red and Katarina - the one who tipped off both superpowers about Raymond and Katarina's affair.  The one who killed Raymond's family - if that ever even happened.

Sea Duke has to be someone of significance who plays into Reddington and Liz's back story. Just how remains to be seen.

 

 

5/22/2017 11:21 pm  #318


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

Tuxie400 wrote:

lara1 - Under the Sea Duke as Red theory, Sea Duke may have been another one of the men bewitched by Katarina who was led to believe Masha/Liz was his child. And to spin off someone else's theory, what if some of the blood on Reddington's shirt was Sea Duke's and that's what matched Lizzie's DNA? 

On the opposite end of the spectrum, Sea Duke could  be the arch enemy of Red and Katarina - the one who tipped off both superpowers about Raymond and Katarina's affair.  The one who killed Raymond's family - if that ever even happened.

Sea Duke has to be someone of significance who plays into Reddington and Liz's back story. Just how remains to be seen.

 

Tuxie400 - interesting theories.  The latter got me thinking, what if also SeaDuke did that out of some kind of jealousy/hatred of Red?  Love triangle.  That would parallel the Kirk story in a way.  And it makes me think of that triangle symbol that plays under Liz's photo in the series opening montage; and the prevalence of the number 3 in the series, and how so many critical numbers reduce to that number.  And: the number 3 was on Red's hotel room door when Liz confronts him with the DNA test.

What I'm going to call the "alternate blood sample" theory - that more than the original Reddington's blood was on that shirt - and that Cooper's tiny swatch happened to be of the other man's blood - can mean so many things.  It can mean that other person (maybe Seaduke) is Liz's father.  If Red really is Seaduke, that would mean he really is her father; if he is the original Reddington, then he is not.  Makes my head spin!

I've also been thinking more about the DNA test results.  Red being surprised by that reminded me of when Liz told Kirk that she had a DNA test that confirmed Kirk was her father - and Kirk was kind of taken aback by how, when, where she got that information.  Of course, he thought it was true and it turned out otherwise.  Is the opposite true with Red (the ongoing "mirror" images and stories between Red and Kirk).  The mind boggles!  
 

 

5/22/2017 11:27 pm  #319


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

lara1 - Good list of symbols and themes! Remember how earlier in the season we noticed the repetition of snakes, fish, and birds. There were birds heard chirping at Tansi Farms and seagulls? flying when Liz met Kaplan by the water.

I had a thought today that the removal of eyeballs both opened and closed the season. Remember Estaban creepily taking his eyeballs out?

 

5/23/2017 12:04 am  #320


Re: Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion - season 4 Finale

Hey ole' pals. It is I, Rori, checking in from the world of RL. Have I been following you BLRs all season? Yes. I. Have. Yet, only now have I pulled it together to get registered and hop on to add to your characteristically fascinating discussions. 
Swimming in Thoughts, I am only going to write out one, because y'all manage by telepathy to convey much of what I might write at any time on any given topic. But it's a Tom Thought. As scene fades to black with Tom holding my grandmother's suitcase, I was thinking that whatever he is inclined to do with that bag of bones must be informed by his recent experiences with his own uber-functional FOA (family of origin). What a dissonant time that has been! Good-Mommy/Bad-Daddy...or is it vice-versa?? Nothing turned out to be what it seemed for him; so how will his current state incline him regarding his role in Liz's blood-parent-unravelling-mysteries process.
I'm inclined to think it might make him more vigilant in protecting her. I do not believe there is anything nefarious about his being the person Kaplan chose to get the suitcase. Some people on the Internets seem to think this indicates something chronically creepy about Tom-Jacob. But I think Kaplan leaving him with this task is very organic, given what they've gone through in the past "year" especially. She has simply passed the "Protect Masha/Elizabeth" baton onto a natural successor.
But people have their own notions of "protection," so my suspicion is that Tom, being lately burned by the two faces of Dad, coupled with his perennial hatred of Reddington, is not going to embrace the newly minted DNA results wholeheartedly; nevertheless, with Liz's relief and enthusiasm about the DNA match, he's also not going to want to crush her. So, I align with those who are doubtful that he is going to share those bones with her anytime soon. I think that as Season 5 opens, while Reddington learns how to shop at Cosco/Aldi's and ride the CitiBus, the Tom story will be him figuring out the truth about those bones.
Thanks for "listening" and for being here!
 


This could be a gas if we had some crackers.
 

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