The Blacklist Refugees » Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion

Tatiana · 5/21/2017 2:54 pm

Honey West wrote:
Tatiana wrote:
Honey West wrote:
Maybe Katarina lying in a bed somewhere in a vegetative state, but still alive.
I still think that, Katarina or Red's daughter.

Maybe the fabled Jennifer. Just because Naomi didn't know where she went doesn't mean that Red doesn't know. I wonder if Kirk could have heard something? But why would Red hurt her? If that's who he meant, we don't know.

Carla/Naomi said "she knew you would come for her some day" ....
Why even include that unless it's a clue (or yet again another red herring)

IowaWatcher · 5/21/2017 3:12 pm

I really don't know what to make of the whole Carla/Naomi - Jennifer segment. At that time, it seemed like the show was going a certain direction and then that whole story just disappeared, got swallowed up by Tom Bond.

I'm back to the original problem: how much is a clue and how much is a continuity error? I'll get more specific with my "theory of everything." I'm still pondering it. I'll write it out in the next week or so, real life permitting.

Tatiana · 5/21/2017 3:54 pm

IowaWatcher - I look forward to your "theory of everything"

I haven't made up my mind on any particular theory. But I do not think Red is Katarina, unless we leap from fiction to science-fiction.

Suitcase full of bones:
I've looked at that screencap from Tessa's site (thanks Tuxie!) and I'm compelled to believe they are a child's , but I don't know why Kaplan would say, "I'm sorry Katarina" when she dug them up.

If you compare Tom's hand to the skull, his hand exceeds the length of the skull face from chin to brow (that's a general rule of thumb in drawing the human figure/face). Also the long, severed bone on top of it all could be a femur. If that's the case, this is either a very petite woman or a pre-pubescent child, probably 10-12.

But that's just my armchair, utterly, I'm not a medical examiner but I play one on the internet, estimation.

'

IowaWatcher · 5/21/2017 4:04 pm

Also, Mr. Kaplan might be apologizing because KR buried the body, and she's sorry to have to dig it up.

Here's a new one: what if the body is Chris Hargrave? (and then we get into who is Tom?) -- that might be another reason for Red to be visible in Liz's life. He needed to save her from Tom Bond.

Oh, someone would have some 'splaining to do, if that were the case. LOL!

Honey West · 5/21/2017 4:12 pm

Tatiana wrote:
Honey West wrote:
Tatiana wrote:

I still think that, Katarina or Red's daughter.

Maybe the fabled Jennifer. Just because Naomi didn't know where she went doesn't mean that Red doesn't know. I wonder if Kirk could have heard something? But why would Red hurt her? If that's who he meant, we don't know.
Carla/Naomi said "she knew you would come for her some day" ....
Why even include that unless it's a clue (or yet again another red herring)

I had a thought about that. What if she meant Jennifer's remains? Is that even possible? Eww.

Honey West · 5/21/2017 4:14 pm

IowaWatcher wrote:
Also, Mr. Kaplan might be apologizing because KR buried the body, and she's sorry to have to dig it up.

Here's a new one: what if the body is Chris Hargrave? (and then we get into who is Tom?) -- that might be another reason for Red to be visible in Liz's life. He needed to save her from Tom Bond.

Oh, someone would have some 'splaining to do, if that were the case. LOL!

The only thing about that is that it was Red who hired Tom in the first place from The Major. Surely Red would have investigated Tom better than anyone he'd ever investigated before if he was hiring him to watch over that which is most precious to Red named Liz. He had to know that Tom was really Christopher Hargrave.

Tatiana · 5/21/2017 4:28 pm

I've seen some theories of twins. I'm not so sure of that. I'm not so sure of the imposter theory. I don't buy Katerina is Red theory.

I think there was another daughter. I don't know who's daughter, but there was a girl, ballerina girl, who was several years older than Liz. And something happened to her. I think the work that Red and Katarina did, espionage and crime, forced them into some type of situation in which they either killed the child on purpose or the child died as a consequence of their actions or Masha/Elizabeth killed that child.

And as a result, Red and possibly Katarina, vowed that they would not allow Masha/Elizabeth to follow in their footsteps, that they would do everything possible to sever their ties with the Masha/Elizabeth so that she would have an opportunity to grow up in a normal environment. But criminality or obsession with the criminal world is in her "blood". She chose that life for herself.

JackPow · 5/21/2017 4:40 pm

Tatiana, that's a really interesting theory! And worthy of making its own thread on the Theories section here. I'd love to look out for clues along those lines as time goes on.

Tuxie400 · 5/21/2017 4:57 pm

Tatiana wrote:
Suitcase full of bones:
I've looked at that screencap from Tessa's site (thanks Tuxie!) and I'm compelled to believe they are a child's , but I don't know why Kaplan would say, "I'm sorry Katarina" when she dug them up.

If you compare Tom's hand to the skull, his hand exceeds the length of the skull face from chin to brow (that's a general rule of thumb in drawing the human figure/face). Also the long, severed bone on top of it all could be a femur. If that's the case, this is either a very petite woman or a pre-pubescent child, probably 10-12.'

I think the three long bones include a femur and an attached ulna and humerus. It's interesting to me that we don't see any hand bones there. And there's something more than bones in there. In the center, next to where the sternum is cut, there is an object that looks something like a fishing reel. Weird. We've been discussing that over on the Blacklist Exposed Facebook forum.

What child have we seen in the 10-12 age range? Ballerina Girl. Is this Ballerina Girl, and was she killed by Red's Russian enemies? Or Liz/Masha, our little sharpshooter? This makes me think all over again that Liz may have been programmed as a young child to be a killer.

Edited to say I just saw your theory above. I was close to concluding what you theorized. But how would ballerina girls' bones be the impetus for Red coming back into Liz's life?

Last edited by Tuxie400 (5/21/2017 4:59 pm)

Tatiana · 5/21/2017 5:14 pm

"But how would ballerina girls' bones be the impetus for Red coming back into Liz's life?"

Red tells Kaplan that he re-entered Masha's life because of Tom, who went so far as to marry her. If the motive for Red, Katarina, Kaplan, Dom, etc. was to provide a life for Masha/Liz which was safe from the criminal underworld, then it would make even more likely that Red would be infuriated that Tom insinuated himself into Liz's life in such an intimate way.

IowaWatcher · 5/21/2017 5:57 pm

Yes, that's true: Red hired Tom, and he probably did know his whole story. Tatiana is probably closer to what happened.

I'm just tossing thoughts out, anyway. I'm cooking Sunday dinner and typing while I'm waiting for the sides to finish. I roasted a whole chicken (lottsa leftovers), steamed green beans, and real mashed potatoes from scratch. Dinner is in ten minutes. You're all invited!

Last edited by IowaWatcher (5/21/2017 5:58 pm)

Honey West · 5/21/2017 6:03 pm

Oh yum! That sounds like a good old-fashioned Sunday dinner!

Tatiana · 5/21/2017 6:05 pm

Oh IowaWatcher, you're so good! I haven't started dinner, it's almost 6pm, and I plan to feed everyone leftovers (who does leftovers on a Sunday?). But it's a weird combination of pseudo Italian (spaghetti, pizza, garlic bread) and Asian (mus-mun curry, Pa-Naeng, fried rice, chow mei fun, and one fortune cookie).

I'm not sure if I should mix them. Italian and Asian just don't go together.

Honey West · 5/21/2017 6:13 pm

Tatiana wrote:
I've seen some theories of twins. I'm not so sure of that. I'm not so sure of the imposter theory. I don't buy Katerina is Red theory.

I think there was another daughter. I don't know who's daughter, but there was a girl, ballerina girl, who was several years older than Liz. And something happened to her. I think the work that Red and Katarina did, espionage and crime, forced them into some type of situation in which they either killed the child on purpose or the child died as a consequence of their actions or Masha/Elizabeth killed that child.

And as a result, Red and possibly Katarina, vowed that they would not allow Masha/Elizabeth to follow in their footsteps, that they would do everything possible to sever their ties with the Masha/Elizabeth so that she would have an opportunity to grow up in a normal environment. But criminality or obsession with the criminal world is in her "blood". She chose that life for herself.

I tend to think you are probably right.

I'm looking forward to seeing what opens up for the plots now that Liz not only knows her relationship to Red, but seems to pretty much have accepted him as family, in spite of, as she said, what he did to her and what he did to himself to get to this point. She's certainly under no illusions about what he does and what he's capable of doing. She's had four years to study him pretty closely. And she's a psychologist. He's a violent and dangerous man. But he loves her unconditionally. So now that the writers have pretty much wiped the board clean, except for a few odds and ends like body-in-the-suitcase and Red's secret past, he is essentially starting over. He has some allies, but his criminal empire is largely dismantled, or at least that's what we've been led to believe. Aside from Dembe and now the Task Force, most of his people are gone. Killing off Baz was the last. If he's really dead, of course. So will Red choose to rebuild his criminal empire? Or will he choose another path. If he can even do that. His goal of protecting Liz and now Agnes will always be there. But how will he accomplish that goal now? Season 5 is going to be very interesting, if they handle it right.

Last edited by Honey West (5/21/2017 6:15 pm)

IowaWatcher · 5/21/2017 6:15 pm

Hey, I'm just too lazy to cook this week. This chicken should stretch until Wednesday. That leaves me a little more time for some re-watches.

Italian + Asian is cool! That's like some of my Friday night meals: whatever is left, chop it finely, heat up some olive oil in a large fry pan, and toss it all in!

lara1 · 5/21/2017 7:21 pm

Lots of great theories, I have to think through.

Re twins, I don't know about that specifically (though we do have twins as story lines in the series)but I have thought from time to time that there was a sister, Elizabeth, maybe older, and she was the "favored" child. Not that there should be such a thing, but anyway, that was my thought. and something happened to her, she was killed or incapacitated. And Masha as the surviving daughter was given Elizabeth's name. I remember seeing a film where something similar happened - the parents so bereft from losing their first child, the second one was kind of groomed to take the child's place. I'm not expressing a view on it, just stating the facts of the story.

It could also be the other way around, Masha was the one who something happened to, Liz was given Masha's name, then everything reverted back to Liz. A bit more confusing, that!

Anyway,iIt kind of parallels in a weird way the Flora Segunda story line. So our Elizabeth is the second Elizabeth?.

You know, yesterday I thought the dialogue in the finale concluded that Liz is Masha. But if you think of Red's words to Kaplan about how Elizabeth isn't Masha anymore, and also to Dom about losing Masha once, he's not going to lose her again, I don't know. Is there anything beyond the obvious meaning of those phrases? I wonder if there is something to my idea or a variation of it. I just can't figure it out.

Or the second Elizabeth was Red's daughter, separate from Katarina entirely, who was lost. And Masha/Liz is the second Elizabeth.

Somehow there are two girls, I think that its just that we can't see quite yet exactly how that fits together.

lara1 · 5/21/2017 7:23 pm

Iowa Watcher, your dinner sounds great! I had to make something very quick as I was outside all day, washing windows, putting screens in and generally tidying the garden and back yard. I got a bit carried away and before I knew it, It was nearly 6:30, so I didn't actually gets around to dinner til around 7:30.

I actually hate when that happens, lose track of time and then I am just throwing anything together because I am starving and there is no real time to cook. LOL!

Laocoon · 5/21/2017 7:25 pm

Iowa - Definitely with you on the rewatches. My cable doesn't have Mr. Kaplan part 2 yet. Groan.

We had fusion cuisine last night - pork carnitas with pad thai, tortilla chips and a French rose' wine. What's not to like with Haagen-Dazs for dessert? Truly an international experience.

lara1 · 5/21/2017 8:16 pm

Tuxie400 - thanks for the link to the screen cap of the suitcase. I do think that the size of the skull would determine the age of the person. I read somewhere that someone with a background in anthropology opined that it was an adult skeleton, but I'm not sure about that. Someone has mentioned the depth of the suitcase, which isn't very deep. I don't know the dimensions of an average human skull (if there is such a thing), but I'd be inclined to think the skeleton is of an older child.

The hands do look like they are missing, cut off (sorry!) and yes it does look like something else is in there. hard to tell what it is.

The suitcase reminded me of the song that played when Red opened Katarina's trunk at Dom's place back in Season Three. (link to lyrics below). The lyrics are quite appropriate here. See in particular the first few lines, and the last two paragraphs.

That and the connections would seem to point to Katarina, its just very hard to tell if that is an adult skull. And the song may mean nothing. (though its a lovely song!)

https://gregoryalanisakov.com/songs/suitcase-full-of-sparks

Last edited by lara1 (5/21/2017 8:16 pm)

lara1 · 5/21/2017 8:18 pm

Oh yes, the "Suitcase Full of Sparks" lyrics talk about the "California coast" that we both loved. hmmm