The Blacklist Refugees » Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion

Honey West · 5/20/2017 10:10 pm

deadskie13 wrote:
lara1 wrote:
I have one final thought/question for the evening.

Kate asks Liz whether she wants to know the truth why Red turned himself in, and Kate would take Liz there. Then when they are driving the FBI intercepts them but ultimately they box Kate in on the bridge.

I don't think it was the Farm, because if I remember correctly Kate had already dug that up and put it in the locker.

So I wonder where she was taking her, and what was the "truth" she wanted her to see? I don't think it was that Red is Liz's father, she could just have told her. Also, I thought it was somewhat telling that Kate said to Liz, you can either come with me, and learn the truth, or leave the car and choose Red, something to that effect.

I wonder where they were driving to and what was the "truth" Kate was going to show her, if it was not the suitcase. It didn't sound to me like they were going to the locker, and it also sounded to me that Kate's plan was that the locker would only be revealed if she were killed.

??
So many good points, lara1! By all means it does imply that whatever Kate was going to show Elizabeth, would have been some sort of grand revelation; to be something so shocking that she knew just telling Liz wouldn't hit it home--that it was something she had to show her, and allow her to experience for herself. What could that possibly be? Excellent work! :D

Maybe Katarina lying in a bed somewhere in a vegetative state, but still alive. Just thinking about Josephine and wondering if the lucky women who got involved with Red were the ones who ended up in witness protection.

Last edited by Honey West (5/20/2017 10:27 pm)

Honey West · 5/20/2017 10:20 pm

deadskie13 wrote:
Honey West wrote:
deadskie13 #192, well said! I totally agree about Red not getting (or maybe just not accepting) the fact that he matters to people. I think he feels that he does not deserve it.

The 5:00 meeting time made me think "Why would they want to meet anywhere during rush hour?" Maybe on the show it was the weekend?

Two words: More. Dom.
Haha! Cut to scene of Red and Kaplan angrily looking out their respective windows, behind a long line of traffic, honking. World's slowest dramatic meeting, ever! XD

Where are you! over here! this is ridiculous! lets try again on Saturday.

Tatiana · 5/20/2017 10:24 pm

Honey West wrote:
Maybe Katarina lying in a bed somewhere in a vegetative state, but still alive.

I still think that, Katarina or Red's daughter.

Honey West · 5/20/2017 10:25 pm

deadskie13 wrote:
Tuxie400 wrote:
deadskie13 - Welcome back and congrats on catching up with real life! Catching up on real life is something I've given up on. I've never made it past one third of the things on my to do list, and likely never will.
Ahahaha! I should clarify! I took care of the basics--I lost my job at the end of January, and anticipated taking a month off to finish writing my first book. I did that, and then one month turned into two, and I got antsy. Found a fantastic job out of nowhere, and here we are! I'm still a complete mess in every other aspect of life, though! XD

Yeehaw! That's great! I think things happen for reasons unknown to us at the time, but when you look back it all falls into place. Obviously you were meant to have that time to finish your book. And then the job came along. Pretty cool! You will have to keep us updated about the book.

Honey West · 5/20/2017 10:29 pm

Tatiana wrote:
Honey West wrote:
Maybe Katarina lying in a bed somewhere in a vegetative state, but still alive.
I still think that, Katarina or Red's daughter.

Maybe the fabled Jennifer. Just because Naomi didn't know where she went doesn't mean that Red doesn't know. I wonder if Kirk could have heard something? But why would Red hurt her? If that's who he meant, we don't know.

Tuxie400 · 5/20/2017 10:39 pm

deadskie13 - It sounds like the unexpected time off gave you the opportunity to channel your creative energy into writing. I hope you did finish that book. That's quite an achievement.

lara1 · 5/20/2017 10:51 pm

deadskie13 #222 - I was never fully sold on the "Liz is not Masha" theory though I did think if made to work, it would be a cool twist. Some people thought they saw a twin in the window at the Summer Palace, but I didn't get that at all - just the images of little Liz and adult Liz in the window.

The dialog in the finale convinced me that Liz is in fact Masha. Red speaking to Dom and speaking to Kate, referring to Masha. And I agree that Dom and Kate were both still seeing Liz as little Masha. Red, was too, I believe, until he found out that she had faked her death. That she was an adult with her own plans and motivations. He did start to back off and no longer called her Lizzie, although that wasn't the only reason.

I do think there is a second girl in the mix, though. Either a sister of Liz or Red's "real" or "other" daughter, depending on whether you think "old" Red is the same as "current Red". And that daughter was hurt in some way, based on Kirk's comment to Red about hurting his daughter, and Naomi's kind of knee jerk reaction to him when he asked about Jennifer - I'm not letting you near by daughter, or I'm not letting you touch my daughter, something like that, which may (or may not) indicate she wanted to keep Jennifer away from Red, safely away. IMO of course.

I don't think Jennifer is Red's daughter, at least not current Red's daughter. I could be wrong. But I think there is a daughter/another daughter who was hurt as a child.

Last edited by lara1 (5/20/2017 10:55 pm)

lara1 · 5/20/2017 11:04 pm

Tatiana #224, 228.

Interesting info on the DNA testing. I kind of wondered that myself. hmmm

And on the child thing. A child plays into the story somehow, I think. The child's bed at Tansi farms, what looks like 2 white bunnies. And I still think that back at the Summer Palace there were 2 of many things in Liz's room. WE didn't see that in Kate's recollections but we only saw Liz as a baby at the Summer Palace in those memories. Maybe another girl who stayed from time to time. If it was a sister of Liz, it would have to be a "hidden" unacknowledged sister (shades of Wujing, the hidden, invisible child), or I think Kate would have been looking after her as well (and we didn't see that as far as it was shown).

And then there is that mystery other girl in the closet with Liz on fire night. And the second bunny, on the dresser in the bedroom they pass on the way out of the house.

Last edited by lara1 (5/20/2017 11:08 pm)

lara1 · 5/20/2017 11:14 pm

deadskie13- congratulations on finishing your book! that is a great achievement! And glad a great job fell into place for you!

lara1 · 5/20/2017 11:22 pm

Liz's Scar comment to Red -
OK, did anyone notice what Liz said to Red about her scar. She said something like, when I first met you, I told you that my father had given me the scar. But you already knew that, didn't you?

Which brings me back to that puzzling statement.

First of all, I don't think she ever said that to Red in the pilot. Didn't she say something like, "there was a fire when I was 14". And Red says something like, "someone tried to hurt you". And she replied, "Not exactly.". Then Red wants to see the scar.

I think it was only Beth that Liz spoke to about her father giving her the scar, and that it made her brave by touching it. But I don't think she ever said that to Red. Or am I wrong?

And what does that in fact mean? In Luther Braxton, she remembers seeing the scar appear when she is reaching out and holding onto Red's hand in the chair...

It still is such a strange statement to me.

And about Tom and the suitcase -
Wow, reminded me so much of Season 1 - is he good guy or bad guy there? I think many people thought he was talking to Liz, but I have to say that never entered my mind. Well, we'll have to wait 4 months to find out!

Last edited by lara1 (5/20/2017 11:23 pm)

IowaWatcher · 5/20/2017 11:35 pm

Maybe Tom is talking to his father . . . and he's planning on taking the suitcase to him, first.

I don't really think he would want to take a bunch of bones to Liz.

Added: Welcome back, Deadskie! Congrats on your book!

Last edited by IowaWatcher (5/20/2017 11:37 pm)

Eastcoast · 5/21/2017 1:11 am

This is a long thread! lol So much to say about all this and so little time..
I know there were a few comments about the talk Red and Kate had in the theater but not sure who said what right now.

I went back to the conversation between Kate and Red the day he turned himself in and I felt like they were continuing a conversation.

Kate said, the day he turned himself in...
"Raymond, stop. The instant you walk through that door,
the damage will be done. You'll destroy her innocence,
everything we've been fighting to be preserve. You'll never undo it."

He said, in the theater....
'Elizabeth is who she is, Kate. She's not Masha anymore.
With little to none of my presence or influence
through the years, she has grown up to be Special Agent Elizabeth Keen.
Her area of scholarship and expertise is the study of criminals.
The habits and inclinations, the curiosities and proclivities,
the psychiatry of criminals. That's who she is.
That may be the world she was born to, but it is most certainly
the world she has chosen to live in.
I can continue to give her more distance, but she is going to continue
to be who she is. And I'm not going to stop watching out for her.'

I felt like he was saying that even though he is her father and had not been around her with his criminal activity, it is basically in her blood. They removed her from that lifestyle of spies/murder etc... to the middle of nowhere in Nebraska and she still ended up in that field of work.

TheYeti · 5/21/2017 7:10 am

deadskie13 wrote:
Hi, TheYeti! Lots of excellent points! I never was !00% sold on the impostor theory, either, but I'm starting to see the possibility more and more. The thing that gets me, though, is like with Carla/Naomi--Red seems to have genuinely been in love with Katarina. Or, at least that's the impression I got from Cape May. I mean I know it's all in his head, and such--but I think his subconscious is pulling out that they worked together, and worked together well, that he failed her in some kind of way, and that he feels guilty for not being able to save her. Maybe it was an unrequited love, though. I don't know. So many wonderful things left to think about over the break, indeed!

I have to take some time to find out all the exact quotes that I'm missing, but I believe Red has often mentioned that Katarina seduced many men as part of her job. From "Requiem" I understood that she only really loved Raymond (the real one), while Alexander Kirk used to believe she loved him as well. Perhaps Seaduke, after he ended up in the USA or Canada, was one of Katarina's targets and was also lead to believe she loved him. Therefore he might have been genuinely in love with Katarina, just not the other way around.

Tuxie400 · 5/21/2017 10:46 am

lara1 wrote:
Liz's Scar comment to Red -
OK, did anyone notice what Liz said to Red about her scar. She said something like, when I first met you, I told you that my father had given me the scar. But you already knew that, didn't you?
First of all, I don't think she ever said that to Red in the pilot. Didn't she say something like, "there was a fire when I was 14". And Red says something like, "someone tried to hurt you". And she replied, "Not exactly.". Then Red wants to see the scar.
I think it was only Beth that Liz spoke to about her father giving her the scar, and that it made her brave by touching it. But I don't think she ever said that to Red. Or am I wrong?

lara1 - You are exactly right. She only said that to Beth. I don't know that it means much - except that Liz's memories have been screwed with too much.

Tuxie400 · 5/21/2017 10:54 am

Eastcoast wrote:
I went back to the conversation between Kate and Red the day he turned himself in and I felt like they were continuing a conversation.

Kate said, the day he turned himself in...
"Raymond, stop. The instant you walk through that door,
the damage will be done. You'll destroy her innocence,
everything we've been fighting to be preserve. You'll never undo it."

He said, in the theater....
'Elizabeth is who she is, Kate. She's not Masha anymore.
With little to none of my presence or influence
through the years, she has grown up to be Special Agent Elizabeth Keen.
Her area of scholarship and expertise is the study of criminals.
The habits and inclinations, the curiosities and proclivities,
the psychiatry of criminals. That's who she is.
That may be the world she was born to, but it is most certainly
the world she has chosen to live in.
I can continue to give her more distance, but she is going to continue
to be who she is. And I'm not going to stop watching out for her.'

I felt like he was saying that even though he is her father and had not been around her with his criminal activity, it is basically in her blood. They removed her from that lifestyle of spies/murder etc... to the middle of nowhere in Nebraska and she still ended up in that field of work.

Eastcoast - Wow, you are right about the two conversations seeming to fit together! I think what Red said to Kaplan is further evidence that he IS her father. Even though he hadn't been around her to influence her, she gravitated to the world of criminals anyway. I think it also shows that Red has finally moved beyond seeing Liz as a little girl who needed protecting. For a long time he saw her as that child, and that's why he called her Lizzie. He now acknowledges Elizabeth Keen as the woman she has become. He wants to understand her as the adult she chose to be, even though he will never stop wanting to keep her from harm. I think that's a lot of character growth for Red. Kaplan and Dom never got past seeing her as Masha.

Honey West · 5/21/2017 12:09 pm

TheYeti wrote:
deadskie13 wrote:
Hi, TheYeti! Lots of excellent points! I never was !00% sold on the impostor theory, either, but I'm starting to see the possibility more and more. The thing that gets me, though, is like with Carla/Naomi--Red seems to have genuinely been in love with Katarina. Or, at least that's the impression I got from Cape May. I mean I know it's all in his head, and such--but I think his subconscious is pulling out that they worked together, and worked together well, that he failed her in some kind of way, and that he feels guilty for not being able to save her. Maybe it was an unrequited love, though. I don't know. So many wonderful things left to think about over the break, indeed!
I have to take some time to find out all the exact quotes that I'm missing, but I believe Red has often mentioned that Katarina seduced many men as part of her job. From "Requiem" I understood that she only really loved Raymond (the real one), while Alexander Kirk used to believe she loved him as well. Perhaps Seaduke, after he ended up in the USA or Canada, was one of Katarina's targets and was also lead to believe she loved him. Therefore he might have been genuinely in love with Katarina, just not the other way around.

I kind of think that Red may have been in love with Katarina, but she may or may not have been in love with him. She told Kate in Requiem that she didn't know about love, in her job, but she only knew that she loved Masha. So if Red felt that Katarina had betrayed him, in the end of their relationship, what might he have done? We know how he is about betrayal and loyalty. Maybe she did love him, but whatever she did he saw it as a betrayal of him and his trust. Much like he did with Kate, unfortunately.

lara1 · 5/21/2017 12:10 pm

Eastcoast and Tuxie400 - yes, that makes a lot of sense. I thought that speech Red gave to Kate in the theatre was disjointed, especially the last line. But matched up with the other dialogue, it is a continuation of that conversation so makes more sense. Good catch!

lara1 · 5/21/2017 12:29 pm

Honey West #256 - I have thought that on and off, also. That Red may have been in love with Katarina, but it was unrequited. He said to Liz that her father was the only person that her mother ever truly loved. Which would support that, but only if Red is not her father.

But now we are told that Red is her father. He doesn't deny it, nor does he give Liz an emphatic "yes" as he normally does when she confronts him with a "truth" that is really true. In any event, if he really is her father, that means that he has lied to her. Which kind of disappoints me because I thought that he had always told her the truth even when it was painful and risky to do so (yes, he killed Sam; yes, he was there at fire night; yes, he had her memories changed). Yes, I have never lied to you.

It will be very interesting to see where things go from here and how this impacts the series next season.

Tuxie400 · 5/21/2017 1:15 pm

Some thoughts on the bag of bones: When I first saw the bones in the suitcase at the end of the episode, my first thought was that they were a child's bones, mainly because they filled so little space in the case. After examining the screencap of the bones, I can see that perhaps not all of the bones from the body are there. The bones do appear to be cut or sawed apart. The skull is in the corner and would have to be a fairly small skull, I think, to fit that way in just half the case. (Eastcoast, we need you to weigh in here.) You can see the screencap on Tessa's Criminally Sane Tumblr.

https://tessabltheorist.tumblr.com/

There are a couple of theories floating around out there pertaining to a child's bones in the suitcase.

I saw an interesting theory on Reddit. That person also thought the bones looked like those of a child. Her idea was that Red and Kaplan showed Katarina the bones of a child and passed them off as a dead Masha to keep Katarina from looking for Masha. The problem I have with this is that Katarina already knew Masha was with Sam. Why wouldn't she have just checked with Sam, if she was alive and wanting to reunite with her daughter?

Tessa has proposed a twin theory in which there were two daughers, Masha and Elizabeth, and Masha not only shot her "father" the night of the fire, but she also shot and killed her twin sister whose little burned body is in the suitcase. Interesting, but I don't see how that body would have caused Red to re-enter Liz's life.

I do think the bones:

1. Are something that upon identification would hurt Liz and destroy her "innocence."

2. Are something Red never though Kaplan would divulge because it would hurt Liz so much.

3. Are something that paint Red in a very bad light.

Tuxie400 · 5/21/2017 1:22 pm

As for unrequited love, my idea was that Katarina did fall in love with Raymond, but Raymond did not love her. She was spying on him, and he was spying on her. The reason it pained Raymond that he was the only man Katarina ever loved was because he was playing her. A child was the accidental outcome of this spying liason. Raymond loved Carla. Although he wanted Masha/Liz, his child, he didn't want to be a family with Katarina. Maybe all this came out on fire night, and that's why Katarina decided Raymond was a "bad man" Maybe he even notified authorites who came to arrest Katarina that night. After all in Kate's Requiem memory, Katarina said there were "too many people, shouting and fighting."

Last edited by Tuxie400 (5/21/2017 1:29 pm)