The Blacklist Refugees » Kaplan; Kaplan, Conclusion

lara1 · 5/20/2017 6:42 pm

deadskie13 #207 - I have thought from time to time that "our" Red and "real" Red were brothers, maybe twins maybe not. I think I did a post on this on the old board, possible clues leading to this.

Its just a theory, so probably has holes like all of the other theories! But equally it would explain a lot.
And I do tend to lead toward Red having a paternal-like interest and attachment to Liz while not being her biological father, coupled with a loss of his own daughter. Of course that's just a theory as well.

I don't know the technical details of how the DNA test would work, and how a brother or twin brother would affect any results. But I do think a brother relationship in concept is why the DNA test can test positive for "old" Reddington but our Red may not be Liz's biological father, but still regards her as a daughter. All of which is why he would not refute the results (and maybe cannot "accept' them without lying), yet can't explain and still be happy for Liz's acceptance. And still terrified that she never find out the "real secret" whatever that is.

Just a theory of course. I have humble pie in the freezer, ready for use if necessary come the series finale! LOL

deadskie13 · 5/20/2017 7:50 pm

lara1 wrote:
Tatiana - that is a possibility. part of the two girls theory.

I am still thinking about one of the last conversations Red had with Kaplan. all about how Liz is not Masha - that is, she has grown up and developed into the FBI agent profiler Liz Keen. That was a loaded, perplexing conversation to me. I understood what Red was saying but why was he saying that to Kaplan in that way?

I was always on the fence about there being two Elizabeths, so to speak. I believe there's more than one daughter for Red, in some kind of way, sure--but I was never quite certain if there was a kiddo switch with Liz and Masha being two different little girls. But, if anything, that conversation between him and Kaplan cleared up for me that there isn't more than one Liz; that she isn't a twin.

And the reason being is, it sounded to me like Red was talking about who Elizabeth started out as--she was Masha, but now she is an adult. And, as an adult, she is Elizabeth Keen; someone who makes her own decisions, and where she came from has absolutely nothing to do with that. And so I took it to be a conversation about how sure, she's cursed by who her parents are/were--but ultimately it's the choices she makes that put her on the path she's on. Sort of like telling Kate she isn't a defenseless little girl, anymore.

I think Red called her Masha for the first time this evening, both to Kate and do Dom, on account that a lot of this season has been about Red learning to take two steps back, and see things from other perspectives. And, I think he realized that to Kate and Dom, Liz is always going to be Masha. BUT, that's just my take on it. And I have been wrong so many times before. ^-^

deadskie13 · 5/20/2017 8:04 pm

LDJones wrote:
If we're to think that perhaps this is an imposter Reddington, we still don't know why he would be so fatherly to Liz. And so keen on protecting her.

Also, what is it about that music box that he made/repaired that she remembers her father playing for her? When would she have been with a father who did that, and why would Red want her to remember? Sometimes I wonder if some of these past clues have been ignored and we're supposed to forget them!

That's why I'm leaning towards Red having had an identical twin, if he is an impostor. Just because it would explain that if he'd lost his own family, that saving Lizzy would be a lot like saving his own kiddo. I'm not 100% sold on the impostor theory, though. Just because sometimes the simplest and most obvious explanations are the ones that make the most sense for a reason. He could, just be her dad. I really don't know. I've been shrugging a lot lately, but in a good kind of way. ^-^

I think if Red is her true Pops, then maybe a part of him subconsciously wanted her to remember him, in bits and pieces, albeit not exactly who he was, if that makes any sense? Those would be good memories they could share, without sharing; Red would know the context, of course, but Liz would at least be able to catch a glimpse of who her father was, without making out the face behind who he is.

Tatiana · 5/20/2017 8:05 pm

It turns out that DNA paternity tests look for only a few markers. An uncle can have test results that look just like he is the father.

So there is solid data to support Red as uncle or father.

deadskie13 · 5/20/2017 8:08 pm

lara1 wrote:
I have one final thought/question for the evening.

Kate asks Liz whether she wants to know the truth why Red turned himself in, and Kate would take Liz there. Then when they are driving the FBI intercepts them but ultimately they box Kate in on the bridge.

I don't think it was the Farm, because if I remember correctly Kate had already dug that up and put it in the locker.

So I wonder where she was taking her, and what was the "truth" she wanted her to see? I don't think it was that Red is Liz's father, she could just have told her. Also, I thought it was somewhat telling that Kate said to Liz, you can either come with me, and learn the truth, or leave the car and choose Red, something to that effect.

I wonder where they were driving to and what was the "truth" Kate was going to show her, if it was not the suitcase. It didn't sound to me like they were going to the locker, and it also sounded to me that Kate's plan was that the locker would only be revealed if she were killed.

??

So many good points, lara1! By all means it does imply that whatever Kate was going to show Elizabeth, would have been some sort of grand revelation; to be something so shocking that she knew just telling Liz wouldn't hit it home--that it was something she had to show her, and allow her to experience for herself. What could that possibly be? Excellent work! :D

deadskie13 · 5/20/2017 8:15 pm

Colleen wrote:
Is it possible Tom was on the phone with Liz? Kaplan's confidant could have merely delivered the key to Tom with the suitcase's location. If Tom is trying to be a family man, Liz should be the first person he calls. If not, then we are back to Tom Bond.

Nice catch! I'm leaning towards Tom being all sneaky again, though, just because even when he's playing nice, I still find myself narrowing my eyes. One thing I keep thinking of, is what if Tom has been working for someone else--either Kaplan or another figure we have yet to be introduced to--all along? Way back in season one, we have Tom whispering to Lizzy on his "death" that her father is still alive. Did he know it was Reddington the whole time? If so, then nice family man Tom isn't so nice, and isn't such a family man after all. Gah! Such good acting on Ryan's part! Figure he's pretty much had to do everything with Tom--not only subtle shifts here-and-there, but also drastic 180s. I don't know. He's someone you want to trust--but I'm never quite there. Close, but not quite there.

deadskie13 · 5/20/2017 8:17 pm

JackPow wrote:
Hi everyone! Just wanted to finally introduce myself. I've been following the forum since Blacklist Support Group but was too shy to comment. Plus, you guys always said what I was already thinking so I felt there wasn't much to add! Not sure if this is the place to post. I wonder if the moderators would consider adding a "Bios/Intros" section to the Index so we can formally introduce ourselves and maybe even include info such as our latest/current theories (which of course would/could change over time!) I know I'd be happy to contribute to such a thread. Anyway, just wanted to finally register and say hi before commenting further on...

Hi JackPow! I'm a fairly antsy person, myself--but these peeps here are most definitely welcoming. I look forward to hearing what you have to say! :D

Tatiana · 5/20/2017 8:19 pm

I like where you guys are going with this. I really think that something happened to Redd's daughter. There's so many themes of disfigured and abused children. I wonder if Kate was going to take her to see either Redd's daughter or Liz's sister who is in some kind of long term facility for.the disabled.

I'm beginning to think the grand finale will not be what bokenkamp has builg of up to be.

And I'm also thinking that ending is unknowable.

deadskie13 · 5/20/2017 8:21 pm

Colleen wrote:
Welcome JackPow! Good point about other folks posting what you are thinking. It means great minds think alike :-)

Thanks to BBB's predictions for season 5 and JackPow's suggestion for us listing our current theory - maybe we could also include our predictions for season 5? I'd enjoy seeing Red do something mundane like buy groceries using coupons - and be totally natural about it as if he'd done it all the time.

My current theory is Kaplan's confidant was Aram's turtle. Key taped to his shell, he dutifully walked to Tom, who was clean shaven at the time but grew a beard waiting so long for turtle's arrival. Katarina was also still alive in the suitcase waiting to be rescued. Kaplan should have given the key to Hudson. Never trust a turtle to do a dog's job.

Hahaha! I kind of always sort of thought they missed the opportunity to have Red swing by his informants house, and help her do the laundry. The lady whose son needed braces and such. I completely forgot her name. : (

P.S. I enjoy that even "broke" Red still has an island of paradise he can skiddadle to at any given time. ;)

deadskie13 · 5/20/2017 8:34 pm

Colleen wrote:
Wow - great observations and ideas from everyone!

I completely missed everything in the barn except the bed. Christmas decorations! And Kaplan using a suitcase she grabbed from the barn makes sense.

I tried to watch for symbols/themes, but lasted only the first 5 minutes until the first commercial break. The show was just too good :-) But a lot of symbols were packed into those 5 minutes: clock behind Red, green walls (walls were also green in the jail interrogation room later in the episode), snake (serpent/dragon/evil), TWO live bunnies about to be sacrificed/eaten alive for the greater good of helping Red's mission.

Haven't re-watched yet, but this may end up being among my most watched TBL episodes ;-)

I didn't even catch that and/or think of it the first go around! Those two white bunnies remind me of two other white bunnies we've seen before--the one Lizzy is chasing and holding in her little kid flashbacks, and then the stuffed bunny full of Fulcrum secrets. I don't know if there's necessarily a connection or not, but it's definitely clever use of symbols. :D

Also! Every time I think of The Fulcrum I miss Leonard Caul! I hope he pops up in season 5 at some point in time; he seems like a fellow that wouldn't turn his back on Red. Any other thoughts on people still willing to associate with our boy? Obviously Dembe's sticking around--beyond that, my bets are on Marvin Gerard and Glenn. Figure Marvin didn't turn on Red before, and so I can't imagine that he would, now. And Glenn--well, he's a caustic little sadistic kind of snot--but I do think there's a deep-rooted friendship between him and Red--albeit one based on love and hate. ;)

deadskie13 · 5/20/2017 8:51 pm

Honey West wrote:
deadskie13, is that you? Welcome back! And also welcome to KiminTexas! I've recently returned to the ranks of the full-time employed, so I don't get to be here as much as I used to.

Anyway, I checked Requiem and no, not the same suitcase. That would have been ironic, wouldn't it? But the body suitcase is scuffed, so it's not pristine. Red gave the impression that the suitcase was what had been buried. I wonder if maybe the body was buried in a suitcase, but when she dug it up, it was too far disintegrated to use so she transferred the contents to another old suitcase, maybe from that barn. That seems highly plausible to me. So it was still bones in a suitcase that Red would know about.

Whatever happened to Katarina, it happened right after her phone call to Kate in Requiem. I was looking at her clothes in that scene, and she was not only wearing the same coat, but she was wearing that same turtleneck sweater as in "Cape May." Red had to have been there. In his opium-infused memories of Katarina he remembers her wearing that same outfit at Cape May. The only reason he could know what she'd been actually wearing is if he had been there. So he must know what happened there. To her. I'm not sure Kate could have been there, though. I thought she took the phone call while she was still at the motel in Nebraska. Kate wasn't Red's cleaner yet. So how did Kate come to know all about the body in the suitcase and why was it "their secret"? This becomes very perplexing!

Honey West! I must apologize, because I lost track of it--there's so many pages to go through! But what a great problem to have! At any rate, what I mean is, probably about six or seven pages back you made a long post, and I pretty much agreed with everything in it. And then I lost it. But it was brilliant, and so thanks for sharing! :D

One of the things I keep thinking about, are the inconsistencies between what Red has said about fire night--the whole "the way Sam tells the story" bit, and then Kaplan mentioning Red handing Lizzy over to her all those years ago--and then the story we're presented with in Kate's flashbacks. And I do not think the writers are inconsistent; I do not believe that anyone on this show has allowed even the slightest details to fall through the cracks. I place my faith in the writers, and in doing so, I'm questioning Kate's memories.

They're presented to us in a factual kind of way, I mean. But, Mr. Kaplan went to work for Katarina after she'd been shot in the head the first go around. And it seemed to be a pretty serious injury. And that house seemed to be a home full of secrets. And then we only get the story only after Kate's been shot in the head for a second time. And so I'm wondering just how reliable all of that information was.

I definitely believe that's how Kate remembers everything--how she sees things unfolding--but even if it all is legit, we're still left with all the holes to fill in from the information she wasn't privy to. For example, just how involved were Red and Katarina? Was it more than a fling? More than something exciting? Were they both on the same page, at some point in time, about getting out, and/or how to proceed once Elizabeth/Masha came along? Or did they argue and fight over everything, once their affair fell to pieces? These are all questions that Kate doesn't know the answers to. She was there, I mean, in that house. But Katarina was a secret keeper, and I'm not certain of just how much information she would have told Kate.

deadskie13 · 5/20/2017 8:52 pm

Tatiana wrote:
deadskie13 wrote:
Haha! Thanks! I don't want to jinx myself, but I think I finally caught up on real life nonsense. I've been keeping up with The Blacklist--but I've missed this place tremendously. I imagine I'll do a lot of catching up over the summer. ^-^

So glad to 'see' you Deadskie! I cannot wait to hear more from you this summer as we mull over every minute detail from every juicy episode of the Blacklist!!!! I'm sure we'll create many of our own red herrings along the way, too LOL

Of course we will! And it'll be so much fun! :D

deadskie13 · 5/20/2017 8:55 pm

Honey West wrote:
deadskie13 #192, well said! I totally agree about Red not getting (or maybe just not accepting) the fact that he matters to people. I think he feels that he does not deserve it.

The 5:00 meeting time made me think "Why would they want to meet anywhere during rush hour?" Maybe on the show it was the weekend?

Two words: More. Dom.

Haha! Cut to scene of Red and Kaplan angrily looking out their respective windows, behind a long line of traffic, honking. World's slowest dramatic meeting, ever! XD

deadskie13 · 5/20/2017 9:01 pm

TheYeti wrote:
Man, this final episode is probably my favourite of the entire show! I had to process it a little before writing anything about it, as I was really stunned by the last 15 minutes.

First of all, I never expected so many characters to leave the show in just these 2 episodes, but it seems very much that we have seen the last of Abe, Baz, Brimley, Laurel, Kaplan and probably Janet. I honestly did not believe the writers would be capable of this, given the fact that less and less important characters are killed every new season. Fortunately we still have Panabaker!

I really loved how the writers unexpectedly finally finished the ongoing arc of Reven's murder, and the Aram/Samar love story and made it fit in the story perfectly. It's also good to see they pay more attention to continuity as more storylines from previous seasons are used, especially by using the 86 bodies Kaplan dug up.

I want to add that I never really believed in the "Red is an imposter" theory but now I'm pretty convinced of it, as I still believe Red never lied to Liz. So we know the old Raymond was Liz's father, and probably the same person as Katarina's lover. We know he was shot by Liz (as confirmed by Red in "Tom Connolly"). Now I'm wondering, did Red confirm Liz killed him or just shot him? I have to rewatch the episode for that.

If Red just confirmed Raymond being shot, I am leaning towards the theory that Red and Kaplan took him away and killed him for whatever reason (and buried him at the farm), maybe to protect Masha from him, who was abducted by Raymond before (just a possibility). That would explain the terrible thing Red and Kaplan did to Katarina, who drowned herself afterwards as she was followed by both the Americans and the KGB. It might even explain why Red chose between "the mother and the child" as he might have saved Masha this way from something Raymond might have done, while it eventually lead to Katarina's death as she had no one to live for or to protect her. I have yet to figure out how this all fits together exactly, but I think this theory might work. (Maybe this has been mentioned in another thread as well. I could have missed it then.)

The remaining questions are, in this case, who Red was before he became Raymond Reddington, and what the Fulcrum has to do with what happened at the night of the fire, but I think it can be put in the story in some way. Does anyone have the date of the period in which Cooper joined the Navy as Red was working overseas? Maybe the Russian mentioned there (Seaduke or something?) has anything to do with what eventually happened at the night of the fire. If Raymond being held hostage by Seaduke, was before the night of the fire, I'm seeing the possibility that Seaduke is the one who worked together with Kaplan to kill Raymond and take over his place. This explains why Seaduke was never captured. I don't believe they just tell that and do nothing with it. The other possibility is that Seaduke became a major Cabal member and had something to do with the Fulcrum, but I'm sure he will be an important part of next season.

Lots of thoughts, and I cannot really find out how all the puzzle pieces fit together. I really need to rewatch some important episodes as I have some doubts of what I heard before, but man!!, this episode offered so much to think about! I wonder how they will ever wrap up all lose ends from the previous four seasons in what is probably the final season!

Hi, TheYeti! Lots of excellent points! I never was !00% sold on the impostor theory, either, but I'm starting to see the possibility more and more. The thing that gets me, though, is like with Carla/Naomi--Red seems to have genuinely been in love with Katarina. Or, at least that's the impression I got from Cape May. I mean I know it's all in his head, and such--but I think his subconscious is pulling out that they worked together, and worked together well, that he failed her in some kind of way, and that he feels guilty for not being able to save her. Maybe it was an unrequited love, though. I don't know. So many wonderful things left to think about over the break, indeed!

deadskie13 · 5/20/2017 9:03 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
deadskie13 - Welcome back and congrats on catching up with real life! Catching up on real life is something I've given up on. I've never made it past one third of the things on my to do list, and likely never will.

Ahahaha! I should clarify! I took care of the basics--I lost my job at the end of January, and anticipated taking a month off to finish writing my first book. I did that, and then one month turned into two, and I got antsy. Found a fantastic job out of nowhere, and here we are! I'm still a complete mess in every other aspect of life, though! XD

deadskie13 · 5/20/2017 9:06 pm

Honey West wrote:
well, deadskie13, twins have been part of the story before with Lord Baltimore. I used to wonder if Liz had a twin, but Requiem seems to rule that out. So does Red have a twin? We know so little about him, that it is certainly possible. I'll have to chew on that one for awhile and see if I see anything.
All this time I think about Kirk saying to Red, "You remember what she DID, not who she was." And that is pretty much the way we have Red presented to us. We have seen some of the things that he DID, but we still don't know who he is/was.

I'm still chewing on it. Sold on nothing, because this show is that good. :D

deadskie13 · 5/20/2017 9:09 pm

lara1 wrote:
Deadskie13 #207 -

"First off, it would mean that our Red did have another family that met an unfortunate demise. Between fire night, and his life with Carla, jotting off between Russia and America, and the story he feeds Madeline Pratt about Christmas Eve--that's a lot to happen to just one person, and in such a compressed time frame. I'm not saying it's impossible--and I imagine those clever cats in charge have it all figured out--it's just that since we're not working with all the puzzle pieces yet, it's still not a clear picture."

Exactly. those are what my thoughts have been. And we can probably add Canada (Summer Palace) DC and vicinity, California and Kuwait, at least. All in the same timeframe. Now we know Red (or one of them) was shadowing a Russian operative Seaduke, caught and tortured, then rescued. That was around 1987. And Kuwait was around that time too. Seems like a lot.

Edited to add: And lets not forget that REd, the Naval Intelligence officer, presumably knew Sam,a grifter, who was living in Nebraska. And intelligence checks on Sam could not find any connection between "our" Red (as "reddington") and Sam when they were presumably good friends.

It does sound more and more like there's been more than one Red--either that, or he knows how to apparate! :D

deadskie13 · 5/20/2017 9:11 pm

lara1 wrote:
deadskie13 #207 - I have thought from time to time that "our" Red and "real" Red were brothers, maybe twins maybe not. I think I did a post on this on the old board, possible clues leading to this.

Its just a theory, so probably has holes like all of the other theories! But equally it would explain a lot.
And I do tend to lead toward Red having a paternal-like interest and attachment to Liz while not being her biological father, coupled with a loss of his own daughter. Of course that's just a theory as well.

I don't know the technical details of how the DNA test would work, and how a brother or twin brother would affect any results. But I do think a brother relationship in concept is why the DNA test can test positive for "old" Reddington but our Red may not be Liz's biological father, but still regards her as a daughter. All of which is why he would not refute the results (and maybe cannot "accept' them without lying), yet can't explain and still be happy for Liz's acceptance. And still terrified that she never find out the "real secret" whatever that is.

Just a theory of course. I have humble pie in the freezer, ready for use if necessary come the series finale! LOL

Haha! No humble pie needed! We're all doing the same thing--just making the best guesses we can, and seeing where our thoughts lead us. ^-^

Tatiana · 5/20/2017 9:51 pm

deadskie13 wrote:
Ahahaha! I should clarify! I took care of the basics--I lost my job at the end of January, and anticipated taking a month off to finish writing my first book. I did that, and then one month turned into two, and I got antsy. Found a fantastic job out of nowhere, and here we are! I'm still a complete mess in every other aspect of life, though! XD

Congratulations on completing your first book!

I've always felt like writing is like childbirth, it's almost like it grows within you and then you labor over the pages to bring forth your story. I love writing, but I would need hours of uninterrupted time to do it.
Regardless!!! That calls for a celebration!!!

Good for you!

Honey West · 5/20/2017 10:05 pm

deadskie13 wrote:
Colleen wrote:
Is it possible Tom was on the phone with Liz? Kaplan's confidant could have merely delivered the key to Tom with the suitcase's location. If Tom is trying to be a family man, Liz should be the first person he calls. If not, then we are back to Tom Bond.
Nice catch! I'm leaning towards Tom being all sneaky again, though, just because even when he's playing nice, I still find myself narrowing my eyes. One thing I keep thinking of, is what if Tom has been working for someone else--either Kaplan or another figure we have yet to be introduced to--all along? Way back in season one, we have Tom whispering to Lizzy on his "death" that her father is still alive. Did he know it was Reddington the whole time? If so, then nice family man Tom isn't so nice, and isn't such a family man after all. Gah! Such good acting on Ryan's part! Figure he's pretty much had to do everything with Tom--not only subtle shifts here-and-there, but also drastic 180s. I don't know. He's someone you want to trust--but I'm never quite there. Close, but not quite there.

That also gives new meaning to Tom's snide remark to Red about him not approving of the wedding because "he didn't ask Daddy's permission." Has Tom always known who Red was? And did Red know he knew?