lara1 wrote:

Honey West #97 - reading your post and thinking about Red and Harold's conversation, I was wondering what are your thoughts on Red being deep deep cover?  With maybe Harold being the, or at least, a, facilitator?  I think during the summer break that was discussed a bit - the idea of Red being very deep undercover - I can't recall whether it was you or someone else who may have mentioned that theory.  Recent developments may start to point in that direction.  But how it would tie in to the whole Rostov/Rostova story I don't know.

I also feel like the series is gearing up for a major 180 degree turn in course or maybe even a 360 as we get more reveals and pieces of info from now up through the fall finale.

A re-watch of this episode is definitely in order this weekend!

That's a good question. I've been sort of reluctant to go with the deep deep cover angle. Although he might have been in the past, I'm not sure he is now. He could be. We really haven't been told anything for sure other than he brokers information, arms, money, and power between various parties for profit. What he does seems to have political ramifications, so I think his "job" is to influence the balance of power along a certain planned route. Or maybe it's not so "planned" and his ability to improvise is just as important as his ability to strategize. But who does he work for? Himself or some other entity? Maybe his real boss is Klaatu. LOL! Keeping the peace for interplanetary good. Of course I'm kidding! But as a young intelligence dude maybe he was sent on a deep cover assignment and that's where the Rostov/a incident happened which derailed things. Or at least sent things along an unanticipated path. There have been several times where we've seen this happen and Red has to deal with them, one was Liz's shooting of Connolly, another was her pregnancy. A third was Kate's betrayal with Liz's fake death. Now Red has admitted to Cooper that things have gone badly and they keep getting worse. So his reactions and plan reboots don't seem to be working where Liz is concerned, but how do they affect his grand plan? Unknown.
But I don't think Red is so much deep undercover so much as he has assumed a position of sort of a global power fixer. But he could still be deep undercover in his guise of being a criminal.That might be both cover and a way to make lots of money to fund what he does. I think that because of what Miles McGrath said to him. McGrath struck me as being a sort of new version of young Reddington.

Honey West wrote:

lara1 wrote:

eastcoast #69  in a very round about way this kind of leads back to Red possibly being the father.

Liz was not Kirk's to raise; Kirk "cannot have" Agnes....interesting words.  and east coast, those words you note, Red took Katarina away and took Liz away.  So maybe Katarina did run off with Raymond.  And maybe he was the "American".  

Maybe that is what Red is worried about, that Liz will figure out the full truth ....or something!  LOL

 
The only problem is that it can't be that simple. So Red had an affair with a married KGB agent. She had a baby, possibly his. How is that so "complicated" that he can't tell his possible kid anything about it all these years later? they are all adults now. Surely it can't be that he just can't admit that to her. No. There's got to be a really good twist to the story and Liz knows that Red is the one she has to dig that information out of. Don't forget she is supposed to be a psychologist and a profiler. Once she gets a chance to slow down and regain her balance she ought to be able to get her questions answered. But Red sees to it that she is kept enough off balance that she has a hard time working on him. Plus she's good at being her own worst enemy most of the time. Anyway, Red told her in the beginning that there were truths out there that she would need to discover for herself.

Honey West,
I was thinking the same thing, why not just tell her she is old enough to handle that. Then I was thinking about how Liz is still not emotionally stable at times and has a hard time excepting some things from Red as it is and maybe that is why he wants her to find out on her own.

I just re-watched part of the episode where her and Red are talking in season 1 about her remembering her father pulling her out of the flames and he answered Yes. She was also asking about why he killed Sam and he said to keep her from knowing the name of her real father because it would put her in danger. She asked 'why, because he is a fugitive on the most wanted list?' but he does Not answer that question. He starts talking about Sam.

I would imagine being Reds daughter would be a rather bad spot with so many people who would like to have him out of the way.  And since we are under the impression that he may have had a daughter who was killed already  he may not want to risk that again.  Since She does not seam to understand how being the daughter of KR is a problem I can see where he may think that until she figures it all out herself she wont be ready for whoever it is. As you said, she is her own worse enemy at times. 





 

Last edited by Eastcoast (10/29/2016 12:18 am)

Honey West wrote:

I'm starting to wonder if Red is made of teflon. Or Kevlar. The Cabal's sniper even had a clear shot at him and couldn't get the job done. Of course, the obvious answer is you can't kill off the star of the show.  (ermm)

Thank goodness! If Red goes, so do I. I am very happy if he is covered head to toe in Kevlar with an impenetrable force field surrounding him. I love many of the characters, but Red, for me, is the show.
 

Honey West, eastcoast and David - yes, its not simple, its complicated!  Lol.  But i cant work out how...

I tried to work out a wild theory, that Liz is not Masha. She may have been in the household  as  Masha and given  that identity which is why Red didnt feel he was lying to her when he said her name was Masha. Or even 2 katarinas, a real and an alias, which would make some of it work.

But when you factor in Dom, it doesnt add up. It seems he is the grandfather to "real" Masha and "real" Katarina was his daughter. Or maybe not!!  But im thinking that the clue to a lot of it is in Cape May and  with Dom. If only we knew what it was!  But somehow i keep thinking that Liz/Masha is not what we may think. And i think hair color is a clue, somehow.

We may be about to find out.!

I think Red has all along tried to protect his (I believe) daughter Liz from plots by first, Berlin, and then, Kirk, who tried to get revenge on Red through LIz.  I think that's why Red dispatched Sam before he could tell Liz about her father.  In Season 1, I think that I saw burn marks on Red's back. If so, he was probably rescuing Liz as a child, out of the fire.  Sometimes I wonder if Harold Cooper knows about Red and is why the FBI team agreed two work with Red in the first place, when Red, as a fugitive, turned himself into the FBI.  I think the Blacklist Series won't end until we learn more, probably from Kirk, about Liz's mother--as well as tying down the unknowns or uncertainties regarding Red, Liz, Dom and Mr. Kaplan.

David wrote:

Another thought on Harold Cooper.  In an earlier episode (I forget which one), it was mentioned that Harold and Red go way back together.  In this episode, there is a conversation between Red and Harold where Red is saying that this is harder than Red thought it would be.  I think that Red would have needed an understanding with Harold before Red ever turned himself in in Season 1 Episode 1.  Harold has gone to higher people in the government, and so there might have been some high level approval of the project to involve Red.

 
I totally agree.

A bit of news, not episode related, and sad, but I read today that Michael Massee, the actor who portrayed Karakurt in Season 1, passed away last Thursday (Oct 20).  Just an update for the group.  I posted it here as this is the most active thread at the moment.   

Last edited by lara1 (10/29/2016 7:27 pm)

Tatiana # 114 - Nice catch on "Kate Lord".  I connected the "Lord" but missed the "Kate"….and that was the name that was on the poster behind Red at the end of Ep 3, when Red is talking to Constantine on the pay phone in the street.

"This needs to end now" Red says to Constantin.  Did anyone else get the impression that Red is not just talking about Agnes, but about something else vindictive with Kirk?  We know they know each other many years, but somehow Constantin has held someone else hostage or done something else very vindictive long ago, or tried to do it?

I"m also starting to think that Kirk is trying to manipulate Liz for a reason we perhaps don't fully know about yet.  Not to play happy families (I don't think he had anything to do with her as a child), nor necessarily the stem cells, - revenge on Red  but in a way different than we may think?

I have not re-watched yet.  I am binging on a marathon of the Sixties TV show "Dark Shadows" running on this Halloween weekend!    Honey West, I thought of you, the same channel is featuring "Honey West" later this week!  

Last edited by lara1 (10/29/2016 10:59 pm)

Hey there! Have not posted since my first post as I was quite busy with RL, so thanks to everyone for the warm welcome. Now let me add my thoughts about the latest episode:

For me, this episode was the best one in season 4 so far! Finally the baby is safe :-o and there's some progress in the who's the father storyline. I also liked Red in this episode very much!

As for the discussion about Red still not telling Liz the truth and his own statement of not being her father... I was thinking, that he could still be her father, but back then when all of this tragical story happened (fire house, spy business, etc.), maybe he was forced to slip into a role and give up his real identity. He might not feel, R. Reddington is the father of Liz, because it's just a cover? (tying in with the thoughts some posted here about Red still being under cover). Also - the burn marks on his back... they seem pretty severe... I think, I remember that back when Liz discovered the fire scene in her memory, we were shown a scene where she is guided out of the house by somebody. It didn't look like this person was hurt by the fire. So was it Red really? If Red says, that Liz shot her father and he's got the burn marks on his back... Maybe he was the one being shot and lying on the floor in the burning house. He was not dead though and still managed to escape, but not without being hurt by the fire. But he was using his "death" to slip into a cover and it would be a great danger to Liz, if somebody discovered that he is actually that man who officially died on fire night and that she's his daughter. He now sees himself as another man and therefore can "lie" to her saying, that he's not her father? Although I can still not think of any reason, why he wouldn't tell her - I mean, it would just be between the two of them, she's a grown-up and nobody would get hurt? One possible reason could be, that there's more about the death of her mother - maybe Red was somehow involved, didn't want her to die, but through his actions somehow there's a joint guilt? Or this other idea of there being actually two girls which have maybe been exchanged, which led to one being dead, etc. Maybe Kirk's real daughter? Katarina had two girls with two fathers? But then... did Dom know about it? In my opinion, there has to be some really really nasty stuff, which keeps him from telling her. What on earth could put her in even greater danger than she is already?

Ok - Just noticed, that I'm writing more questions than potential theories :-D. Sorry about that! I also apologize, if I mixed up things... I'm always trying to rewatch episodes, but I wasn't able to review all of them in so much detail as some of you do.  (whistling)

Honey West wrote:

I loved Dark Shadows! I used to literally run home from school every day to watch it, always missing the bit before the theme music. (we need a vampire emoji. LOL!)

Honey West - yes a vampire emoji!   I especially like the really old black and white episodes of Dark Shadows. 

If you also like "Murder She Wrote" - there was one episode based in Jessica's hometown in Maine, that was kind of an homage to Dark Shadows.  Complete with music and waves crashing on the rocks!  Funny I never watched the original series of Murder She Wrote but I love watching it now, though I don't have much chance to do so.  LOL