LDJones wrote:

lara1 wrote:

LDJones wrote:

Assuming the skeleton in the suitcase is Katarina, that spoils the theory that Red is Katarina. So we still have Kirk's question to Red, "are you Elizabeth's father?" and his reply, "Elizabeth is my daughter." I thought the Red-as-Katarina theory might handle that, but now we need something else.

LD Jones, I couldn't hear what Red said to Dembe when they went to find the suitcase, but it sounded like a man's name.  however I really could not hear it, I just got that impression.  will have to wait for the transcript.....but it could be Katarina.
 

I'm pretty sure the phrase was "what we did to Katarina." Also, Dembe knows so much. Was he with Red that long ago? I thought his rescue as a teenager was more recent.

 
Dembe said "what you did to Katarina."

Okay. Wow! I finally finished reading the comments here. I was sort of following along during the commercial breaks and being careful,not to read ahead of where the show was. Not easy! Tempting!

We figured Liz had run a DNA test a long time ago. But since Red was still being much creepier I can totally buy her not wanting to know if the Devil was really her father. She wasn't ready to know for sure yet. But she was okay with trying to dig info out of him. When she came at him with "you lied to me" tonight he stood his ground, but he didn't deny it. The memory replacements were designed to make him dead to her and hide his identity. The most extreme way to "kill" himself in her mind was to make her believe that she had been the one to kill him. So when he said her father was dead, sure he was telling a lie, but he was also reinforcing what she thought she remembered. That would also explain his pained expression while she told him what she remembered and then his relief because it worked. This is making me think that he had the shooting her father memory implanted right before she shot Connolly. He didn't hire Krilov directly for that one and maybe it was Kate who did the hiring that time.

Red is Red. Look at how far back he really knows Cooper. The big reveal about Cooper was that he had also been in the Navy. Had we heard that before? I don't remember that little nugget of info. Sounds like that little rescue Red thing predates Kuwait. We've long suspected that Red and Cooper had an old connection. Sounds like they were both sort of wunderkinds. You know, from a lot of these stories about Red the spy, told by himself and others, it sure sounds like he wasn't very good at avoiding capture and torture.

I thought poor Dom was going to have a heart attack. Red did encourage him to go find Masha, though, if anything happened to him. I used to wonder if somehow Red and Katarina were half siblings, but it could also be that Dom helped raise Red, or spent a lot of time close to him when he was growing up. I still like to think he was Red's piano teacher.  . But if he was related to them, wouldn't Red and Katarina have known that? Then again, Katarina could have been raised by her mother and she was separated from Dom. Or something like that. Maybe Dom had two families? I think we will see more of him.

Aram and Samar. Awwww. They made that work in a very easy and cool,way. Janet shot herself in the foot and Samar played it cool. The kiss was a great payoff.

Ooh, Dark Donald! Hitchins ended up paying for Reven Wright, but she definitely pulled Ressler over the line with her when she died. Did he call Red for help or did he call Prescott himself? Can't wait to see how this story plays out!  

Kate kept telling everyone that she was old and tired, and I really think she was sicker than she let on. So her suicide wasn't too unexpected. I think we all figured someone was going into the water. Not surprised she had a contingency plan. She learned from the master of contingency plans. I did not expect her locker contact to be Tom! We've also long thought that he knew more about Red than he should have and that he was probably working for someone else. I think Liz is still,his assignment. Her pregnancy was not part of the plan, sort of echoing what happened to her mother. But I'm still up in the air about Tom's true motivations.

I don't see the Red as Liz's father issue being cleared up as ending anything. If anything it raises even more questions and storylines. The body in the suitcase is only the beginning. They've woven a very complex story web and I think some of those loose threads are going to be coming back into,play. Who knows, maybe we will eventually learn the answer to that greatest of mysteries - why Red has that buried
presidential limo!

The bones in the suitcase size issue? It's surprising how little room human remains can occupy. Anthropologists are always shown with fairly small boxes of complete human skeletons.

Anyway, that's it for tonight! I hope to rewatch in the next couple of days and look forward to,reading Jodi Walker's recap on this one!

Hi!  New poster. I've followed ya'll for a long time - from the other site.   Easy for me to say now, I know. But I've always thought Red was Red and he was Liz's father. I always took his denial as a metaphor.   anyway...

So.. a few weeks ago when Fowler came up again. That conversation Red had with her always stuck with me. It gave me the impression that even Red didn't know what happened that night. So I found a little on it. still looking for formal/full transcript. But:

But Red shoots her anyway. As she sits there, bleeding, she says, “I know the truth, Red. About that night. About what happened to your family. Do you want to know the truth?” and he says, “More than anything in the world. But if you know the truth, Diane, then somebody else does too.” and shoots her dead

​Why does Red not know the truth?  (Sorry if this isn't the place to ask this one.. just the father reveal got me to thinking about that conversation).

 

Honey West - I couldn't wait to read your posts to see your conclusions. I agree with you that Red is Raymond Reddington and always has been. Liz IS Red's daughter. Red did lie to Liz - repeatedly. I tend to think the bones in the suitcase are Katarina's. Remember when Red was hiding that ax behind his back when he came back inside the inn in Cape May? I think he chopped up her body so it would fit in the suitcase. And I think Ressler's accidental killing of Hitchin will be a parallel of what happened with Raymond and Katarina. I think they were arguing and Red accidentally killed her. And I think it happened on fire night. I also think Kate's memories were wiped too, and that's why they seemed to be an alternate reality. But if Kate believed the flashbacks we saw, how would she know about Katarina's body being buried in a suitcase at Tansi Farms? How would it be "our" secret?

As for Dom, I'm with you. He was Red's piano teacher and mentor.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (5/19/2017 3:47 pm)

Honey West #123 - agree about Tom.  I've often wondered if what he has been doing has been one long plan this whole time, and that he is still on "assignment".  And so that would mean that Red has continued to be right about him.  the question is, who was/is he working for?  who did he call when he retrieved the case?  And was Kaplan involved with that person to any extent?  If those bones are Katarina, it can't be Katerina...which is a shame because I would have loved it if she came back.

Tuxie400 #127 - good observation about the axe at Cape May.  And I think some of us had observations about other "axe" references also.  Gives a very new meaning to the "Im sorry" Red says to Katarina at the end of Cape May., if that is what it represents.

I agree that would not line up with Kaplan's memories and if they were wiped how would Kate remember about the suitcase?  I also wonder if Kate disposed of the body - was that a "hidden" meaning of the scene in Cape May which focused on KR cleaning up and all of the blood being washed down the sink?  could be.  Or maybe just a reference that she was killed at Cape May.  IF she was - .

Its disappointing to me that Red has been lying to Liz the entire time, if that is the case - he always seemed so emphatic when he said "I have never lied to you."  

I need to re-watch because so much info was thrown at us and I want to watch faces as well as re-hear the words.

Red - called Liz "Masha" for the first time I think.

And what was Kate going to show Liz - where was she taking her?  And if it was to see the "suitcase", what purpose would it serve - in other words, why would the contents of that suitcase be the reason why Red came into Liz's life?

One thing that puzzles me is that Red had always seemed confident that Liz would never learn of his identity, despite many and every chance to get his DNA.  But now old DNA  reveals a match.  He could not have been prepared for that, but my big question remains how he could have been so confident that he could go back into her life and she never find out (i.e. through "current" DNA).
questions, questions. 

KiminTexas wrote:

Hi!  New poster. I've followed ya'll for a long time - from the other site.   Easy for me to say now, I know. But I've always thought Red was Red and he was Liz's father. I always took his denial as a metaphor.   anyway...

So.. a few weeks ago when Fowler came up again. That conversation Red had with her always stuck with me. It gave me the impression that even Red didn't know what happened that night. So I found a little on it. still looking for formal/full transcript. But:

But Red shoots her anyway. As she sits there, bleeding, she says, “I know the truth, Red. About that night. About what happened to your family. Do you want to know the truth?” and he says, “More than anything in the world. But if you know the truth, Diane, then somebody else does too.” and shoots her dead

​Why does Red not know the truth?  (Sorry if this isn't the place to ask this one.. just the father reveal got me to thinking about that conversation).

 

Welcome KiminTexas and great question!  Red almost always seems to know everything.  How can something so awful that happened so long ago still be a mystery to him?  Its true that Red isn't all-knowing but he does ask for help, not just from criminal colleagues but also from the FBI.  Berlin is a perfect example where Red asks Fitch and the Task Force for help.  Repeatedly the Task Force has helped Red in both professional and personal ways. Why is Red's own personal tragedy off limits?  Is it linked somehow to Katarina and the Suitcase Skeleton? Oooh that sounds like a book I'd enjoy reading in middle school...

And yet, Red hinted at his personal tragedy to Ressler (Mako Tanida) and to Liz (Luther Braxton - Hideous Fish).  Ressler himself was probably grieving too much to realize the significance of what Red said - or he didn't care.  Liz wanted to know more, but Red wouldn't budge.  Not sure if talking about it is too painful for Red (he clearly suffered when telling Madeline Pratt - almost couldn't get the words out) or he's afraid of appearing vulnerable to anyone but Dembe.  Maybe talking about it could put himself and others in danger or it could jeopardize his endgame.

Its so neat how one question or suggestion can trigger so many ideas!  One of the reasons why I love this site and everyone who posts here

Last edited by Colleen (5/19/2017 11:17 am)

Patter wrote:

If I were Kaplan and really wanted to dismantle Red I would have worked in reverse. From the looks of it, Red had no one guarding Tansi Farms. I'd expose suitcase body with the 86 others and let Julian Gale do his thing. He'd summon Liz in to take a look at the name on the address label and she'd call Red all, "there's a suitcase here for me with bones". .... Then as Kaplan I'd remotely tear apart Red's empire and cut off all resources. 
Another thought...
If everyone is who they are they are (no imposters, no 2nd girl) how does Liz being Raymond's daughter change the story. Or does it not change it at all? Many of the blacklisters knew a connection, just maybe not the whole connection. Does this put her at more risk? Why is she so important? That's where I'd like to see the story go. Put some puzzle pieces together for us.

I think your strategy would have been a good one for achieving Kaplan's goal of taking Red down AND getting him out of Liz's life. But the showrunners' goal was to give us the suitcase full of bones as a tantalizing mystery for Season 5.
 

Patter wrote:

If I were Kaplan and really wanted to dismantle Red I would have worked in reverse. From the looks of it, Red had no one guarding Tansi Farms. I'd expose suitcase body with the 86 others and let Julian Gale do his thing. He'd summon Liz in to take a look at the name on the address label and she'd call Red all, "there's a suitcase here for me with bones". .... Then as Kaplan I'd remotely tear apart Red's empire and cut off all resources. 
Another thought...
If everyone is who they are they are (no imposters, no 2nd girl) how does Liz being Raymond's daughter change the story. Or does it not change it at all? Many of the blacklisters knew a connection, just maybe not the whole connection. Does this put her at more risk? Why is she so important? That's where I'd like to see the story go. Put some puzzle pieces together for us.

On the face of it Patter - yours is the perfect solution - IF THE SEASON WOULD HAVE ENDED LAST NIGHT!

That said, it would have put too much load on Diceman Gale's platter - and too easy for a financially injured Reddington to thwart one feisty investigator (either via bribery or other form of instant death).
By handing off the Tanzi Farms suitcase to Tom Keen - the world is no longer Red's oyster. Now, Tom becomes the new Mr. Kaplan - Liz is caught in between the firepower of Red vs.Tom and Gale becomes just another side angle nuisance!

I thought it interesting that the suitcase seemed dated, but not old. It certainly hadn't been buried directly in the ground. I don't think it was buried. So Kate dug up the bones and put them in this older, but new looking suitcase and addressed it to Elizabeth Keen at her D.C. Address. Which is presumably also Tom's address. So if the plan was to have Tom retrieve it, why did it need to be addressed at all? Unless that was also a backup in case it wasn't Tom who picked it up? I'd love to know who he was talking to. Had to be an associate of Kate's, maybe just whoever she designated to get the suitcase delivered to Liz. But it also wasn't locked or sealed, so was it intended for Tom, or whoever, to open it? Or did he just do that on his own? How much does he know?

I also don't think the imposter theory is totally dead, but if current Red is an imposter then he has lived as Reddington at least since his Academy days, I would think. There are ways to alter ones DNA, too, so maybe his current DNA might not totally match, so that's why they went back to the old bloody shirt evidence. And how did Cooper know it was there? Was it from that operation that he told Liz about where Red was captured and tortured? So many new questions!

Honey West #137.  Great observation.  So maybe the remains had been buried but not in the suitcase.
Although Red does say to Dembe they need to find that "damned suitcase".  So maybe its meant to look like its been buried after all.  Another thing I need to look at on re-watch.  LOL