The Blacklist Refugees » Episode 4.17 Requiem

Tuxie400 · 4/21/2017 6:23 pm

Tatiana wrote:
Bokenkamp in the EW interview said:

Is Katarina really dead?
Well, she went into the water, I don't know. I don't know how to answer that anymore. I'm sorry.

Well, if he doesn't know how to answer that, no one does. LOL I'd say he just didn't want to answer that question.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (4/21/2017 9:29 pm)

IowaWatcher · 4/21/2017 6:27 pm

As I recall, Mr. Kaplan was in med school at Northwestern.

Yes, that's an odd academic progression. It occurred to me that perhaps the writer has never been to college or around any pre-med or med students. When they leave pre-med or med school, they tend to go into other science-based occupations.

That part didn't work for me. Also, the part about knowing many languages didn't work for me, either. She came across to me as just being creepy, rather than creepy and brainy. I do work around bright engineers, some who have some social challenges.

Off the top of my head, perhaps Kate could've been born into a family who owned a funeral home, so she grew up around mortuary science and started to pursue that, but her father lost the business (and was supporting her in college), so Kate left college and went to live with relatives as their nanny and studied languages for fun at night school. She found that she was good with children and got a translator job somewhere and came to the attention of Red's handlers, who put her into a house as a nanny/spy. They paid for her college courses. That would work better if she originally lived somewhere like NYC.

We'll see what the May 1 deadline for the writer's strike does to programming. I think I'll start a new list of movies I want to rent.

lara1 · 4/21/2017 7:23 pm

Iowa Watcher #102 - I had questions about Kate's education as well, the switch from "pure sciences" and how that all fit in whatever period of time it was, and with the same overall question, i think - how/why did she progress to child psychology. It sounded like it may have been a rehearsed made up answer; combined with that she worked for diplomat families - well was it, at least initially, a cover? did someone (one of Katarina's handlers) suspect something about Katarina and place Kaplan in there? And when the whole thing blew up, she had to run for cover as well -

then again, it may just be exactly as we saw it. She had a genuine interest in child psychology and wanted to make a career as a nanny.

lara1 · 4/21/2017 7:33 pm

OK here is wild theory #1.

There was close focus on Kate, her migraines and her medication. Her migraines are so bad that they affect her vision, and she needs to lie down and rest to try to stave them off.

It reminded me of Red and his medication and how he had memory lapses and his vision was shaky and jarred when he was poisoned.

What if the gunshot (the second one to her head no less) has done some as yet unseen damage? Has it shifted the "truth" for Kaplan; skewered her reality, or has she forgotten things or has her point of view shifted - in other words is she "seeing" things in ways that they didn't happen, or in altered ways? She never had proper medical treatment or examination for any damage or potential issues resulting from the gunshot wound. And we are only seeing things from her point of view here.

Just a thought. Might just be a plot device for something else.

I haven't read any other boards yet for any other theories and when I re-watch the episode no doubt I will come up with at least one more wild theory! LOL

Last edited by lara1 (4/21/2017 7:35 pm)

lara1 · 4/21/2017 8:57 pm

OK so I went on some discussion boards and a few other people had a similar idea to mine in #104. A couple of other people have tied in the memories with the migraines - as in is there a difference in what kate remembers while she is sleeping/dreamingor wakes up to after resting to recover from a migraine?

i don't know about that but I suppose I was thinking, not in a very organized way, while I watched the episode last night, hey she is thinking some of these things after resting from her migraines. So maybe there's something in that, i don't know but I'll bear it in mind during my re-watch.

But I do believe the migraines have been focused on for a reason. Did she only have them after Red shot her? I don't remember anything about pills or migraines before, but we never saw much of her before.
It could be as simple as, hey, Kate still suffers from that gunshot all those years ago. I don't know

Last edited by lara1 (4/21/2017 8:59 pm)

Honey West · 4/21/2017 9:26 pm

Tatiana wrote:
Honey West wrote:
That's because "this" Katarina was the real Katarina and Cape May's Katarina was a product of Red's drugged out imagination and even he didn't recognize her. Maybe like Red with women, Katarina had the ability to make men feel like they were the center of her universe. Many faces to many people. Kirk's comment to Red that "you remember what she did, but not who she was."
I think you're right Honey West. I watched Requiem again this morning and the dialogue between Kate and Katarina is remarkably strange, very similar to the cadence and oddness of Cape May. TBL is a multifaceted story. And each character tells a different story. Like Red, Kate's perception is altered, except for her it's migraines, not opium.

Kate has had two pretty extreme traumatic brain injuries that we know of. I'm surprised she can remember where she put the truck keys.

But, the first gunshot resulted in the metal plate in her head. The second gunshot bounced off of that plate. Who was it that first said metal plate around here? You get the prize for best wild guess that turned out to be true!

It could be the migraines got a lot worse the second time around. And maybe Kate has more serious issues resulting from that. It could be that she is dying and so really has nothing to lose in her war with Red. She seems to be doing this to protect Liz and Agnes, not so much out of revenge for what he did to her personally. I would bet that if Liz and Agnes were not in the picture that she might not go after Red at all, but just quietly fade away.

Last edited by Honey West (4/21/2017 9:37 pm)

Tuxie400 · 4/21/2017 9:37 pm

lara1 wrote:
OK here is wild theory #1.

There was close focus on Kate, her migraines and her medication. Her migraines are so bad that they affect her vision, and she needs to lie down and rest to try to stave them off.

It reminded me of Red and his medication and how he had memory lapses and his vision was shaky and jarred when he was poisoned.

What if the gunshot (the second one to her head no less) has done some as yet unseen damage? Has it shifted the "truth" for Kaplan; skewered her reality, or has she forgotten things or has her point of view shifted - in other words is she "seeing" things in ways that they didn't happen, or in altered ways? She never had proper medical treatment or examination for any damage or potential issues resulting from the gunshot wound. And we are only seeing things from her point of view here.

Just a thought. Might just be a plot device for something else.

I haven't read any other boards yet for any other theories and when I re-watch the episode no doubt I will come up with at least one more wild theory! LOL

Your wild theory has been offered up by several people on other forums and tumblrs. I tend to take what we saw at face value. So far these memories seem the truest and most straight-forward of any we've seen on the show. They're not blocked or altered memories like Liz's of the fire regression. They're not coming out of opium, grief and depression like Red's Cape May ghost story.

I do think physically Kaplan is suffering the effects of Raymond's shot. Let's face it, she didn't get proper medical attention for the wound. The resulting complications may be what ultimately cause her death.

Tuxie400 · 4/21/2017 9:43 pm

Honey West said, "Kate has had two pretty extreme traumatic brain injuries that we know of. I'm surprised she can remember where she put the truck keys.

But, the first gunshot resulted in the metal plate in her head. The second gunshot bounced off of that plate. Who was it that first said metal plate around here? You get the prize for best wild guess that turned out to be true!"I thi

I think I was the one who first offered up the metal plate idea here. I was pleased to see this episode verified my theory as to why Kate survived Raymond's bullet.

RedIsMyCoPilot · 4/21/2017 9:49 pm

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but does anyone else here think KATERINA started the fire to get Liz back from Red?

Tuxie400 · 4/21/2017 9:58 pm

RedIsMyCoPilot wrote:
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but does anyone else here think KATERINA started the fire to get Liz back from Red?

I wouldn't put it past Katarina. But. at this point, who knows how the fire started. Maybe after Liz meets up with the memory doc in the episode after next, we'll know what really happened in that fire.

lara1 · 4/21/2017 10:20 pm

I have to admit I am confused by the whole metal plate thing. It looked to me like the plate was on the back of her head, whereas didn't Red's bullet hit her in the side of the head? And she was wounded in the face.

But i do agree the plate probably saved her from catastrophic injury. That's not to say there was no injury (same for the first shot also). I don't know anything about head injuries but is it possible that her judgment could have been affected.

Honey West - I tend to also think that the memories are probably not altered. I think its more likely her judgement is impaired, or perhaps as you say, she does have some kind of injury that will ultimately claim her life. But since head injuries can affect memory (amnesia one example) I'm still going to re-watch the episode with that in mind (glutton for punishment, LOL! )

What I do think is more likely is that we don't have the full story or that katarina may have told a lie to Kate - not everything mind you but she may have wanted Kate to see what she "wanted" her to see, like Kirk. Manipulating Kate, perhaps for her own means, as she was trained to do. Maybe not.

But I think it would be a wild twist if at the end of this arc, Kate finds out that something Katarina told her was untrue, something she has based all of her actions on, in error (like Kirk). Maybe not!

Honey West · 4/21/2017 10:31 pm

For Tuxie400:

Honey West · 4/21/2017 10:33 pm

Well, one thing stood out for sure. What do Red, Kate, Kirk and Liz all have in common?
They all loved Katarina. And she seems to have loved all of them.

Last edited by Honey West (4/21/2017 10:34 pm)

IowaWatcher · 4/22/2017 8:00 am

Yes, Lara, it could be her cover story. I thought of that after I posted.

Yes, I also agree about the weird dialogue and the possibility that we're seeing unreliable memories, again. In a larger context, that gives the writers some outs if they need to wrap up the season or expand new story arcs. They built in several escape hatches this time that were missing in the baby arc. If that wasn't intentional, they still could be used that way: Mr. Kaplan just has some incorrect memories, as does Liz.

Normally, that would annoy me, but with a looming writer's strike and not knowing for sure whether the show will be renewed, I'd say that was necessary.

I'm studying plot structure right now because it's a problem for me in my longer fiction pieces. I know I couldn't plan a TV series like TBL! I admire what they have been able to do with it.

Honey West · 4/22/2017 9:04 am

I think a key clue was that Kate had previously worked for families of diplomats and government officials. I still don't buy the idea that she only met Red after the fire. She might have been more like Tom than we thought, hired to be placed in Liz's life in order to watch over her.

Tatiana · 4/22/2017 9:18 am

IowaWatcher wrote:
Yes, I also agree about the weird dialogue and the possibility that we're seeing unreliable memories, again. In a larger context, that gives the writers some outs if they need to wrap up the season or expand new story arcs. They built in several escape hatches this time that were missing in the baby arc. If that wasn't intentional, they still could be used that way: Mr. Kaplan just has some incorrect memories, as does Liz.

Normally, that would annoy me, but with a looming writer's strike and not knowing for sure whether the show will be renewed, I'd say that was necessary.

I'm studying plot structure right now because it's a problem for me in my longer fiction pieces. I know I couldn't plan a TV series like TBL! I admire what they have been able to do with it.

IowaWatcher - I consider anyone who embarks on fiction to be very courageous: I always feel like I'm in perpetual labor and the baby is no where near crowning

So far I have re-watched 'Dembe Zuma' and 'Requiem' twice and I'm in awe of the complexity of the plots, characters, and just plain fun they have with this production!

My favorite bits so far:
#8 When Kate finally gets into the hotel room she chalks out her target on the wall, an all male, crusty version of "I will survive" begins to play, she turns on the TV to an episode of blind and bumbling "Mr. Magoo" full blast, then hoists her heavy duty power reciprocating saw to her shoulder and demolition derby begins!

Glen's delivery: Maybe you can't rewind them toots, but I've got a team of Hindus running a server farm in Adams Morgan.

I just can't stop laughing.

On a broader scale, how were they able to successfully pull off Janet/Elise and Aram? Kate and Katarina working together? And a host of others.

Tatiana · 4/22/2017 9:26 am

Honey West wrote:
I think a key clue was that Kate had previously worked for families of diplomats and government officials. I still don't buy the idea that she only met Red after the fire. She might have been more like Tom than we thought, hired to be placed in Liz's life in order to watch over her.

Honey West - yes, I cannot fathom how they could pull off the "when you put her in my arms as a baby" deal without explaining it. Some go with the Katarina gender reassignment. Others the impostor theory. Both can be debunked.

So somehow TBL has to explain this discrepancy. I find it incredibly odd that Kathryn Nemec had so much high level experience in such a short period of time and somehow landed in Katarina's living room interviewing for a nanny position. The only rational explanation is that Kate is remembering through her own lens.

Here's why those theories can be debunked:

If Katarina became Red, then why did Dom immediately recognize Red? Plastic surgery has some shortcomings. And I'm not so sure Katarina/Red would have interacted with Dom in the way he did. THat's open for discussion though.

If Red is an impostor after the real Red died, then the same thing rings true. Dom would at least be suspicious.

Tuxie400 · 4/22/2017 10:40 am

Honey West wrote:
Well, one thing stood out for sure. What do Red, Kate, Kirk and Liz all have in common?
They all loved Katarina. And she seems to have loved all of them.

I'm not sure Katarina loved any of them except her daughter. She said she only loved Masha when asked about Raymond. While she told Kate she loved her, that could have been a manipulation to get her to make sure Masha stayed safe. I have no clue how she really felt about Kirk.

If the diary was real, KR lied to Kate about her feelings for Raymond. In it, she wrote she was in love with "The American." Some people at the time the diary was introduced thought the American was a third man Katarina was having an affair with, and Liz's real father. The Requem episode made it clear that Raymond and the American were one and the same. In his EW interview, Bokenkamp verified RR was the American, the blond man cavorting in the car with Katarina.

Here is the dialog about the affair.

Kate: Is he American?
Katarina: He's an assignment. Was an assignment. I don't know what he is. He's married.
Kate: Is it serious?
Katarina: It's frivilous ... Exciting ... Dangerous.
Kate: Do you love him?
Katarina: I don't know about love, Kate. In my job the only one I know I love is Masha.
Kate: Then you should end it with the American.

This shows Raymond was once an assignment, but was not any longer. I suspect Katarina was ordered to break off contact with RR but continued the affair anyway. Obviously she had feelings for him, but at that point wouldn't admit she loved him. I don't think she thought true romantic love was in the cards for her. And she said when Masha was abducted that she was never going to end up with Raymond. That's why she files the relationship away as "frivolous."

Last edited by Tuxie400 (4/22/2017 12:40 pm)

Eastcoast · 4/22/2017 11:15 am

well,
I have a lot to say but RL has been calling on me! So I will try to catch
up with you all tonight. .
We now know that Kate knew Mato from working for little N. His name was even mentioned.

The big puzzle to me they need to explain is how KR was such a myth?
I had this question a long time ago. We know that apparently Kirk
was looking for her and now we see her picture with an article in the paper in a small town.
Not just a paper, but it seams that it was in a lot of papers. It was big news that a billionaires wife
had disappeared. I got a screen shot of it, did say she was a bit of a mystery despite being married to him.

Well, off to real life for the day.....

lara1 · 4/22/2017 11:16 am

Tatiana and Homey West - my thoughts exactly on Kaplan's experience and esp with diplomatic families - she could see the world - as she said, and so it sounded like these diplomat nanny jobs were abroad; and let's not forget she spoke Russian as one of several languages. That could be a clue esp during the times she was working - end of Cold War.

The door had been left open that she was in the spying business and that was her cover.

Also I thought she was very quick to know in a highly specific way how to dispose of the body. And she didn't flinch. Sure Kate is very smart, thinks well on her feet and is very capable. But I still got the sense it wasn't her first rodeo. Esp after Katerina first said something to her like - there are proper ways/ procedures for doing such things, something like that. And Kate jumped right in with how she'd already handled it.

So imo, she'd either done it before, or was very good at handling the situation and in so doing, probably saved her own life. Training and/or experience in doing so? It does give me pause for thought. Just a theory.