The Blacklist Refugees » Episode 4.17 Requiem

lara1 · 4/21/2017 10:42 am

Tuxie400 wrote:
I don't think Kate is unhinged at all. Her main aim is to take Red and his violent world out of Liz's life. The shutting down of the task force and the arrest and conviction of Raymond Reddington is what she's trying to accomplish. She's willing to give testimony, and even sacrifice herself, to get him out of Liz and Agnes's lives.

Tuxie400 - yes for sure. But in doing so she's becoming a bit like Kirk- even Red - obsessed at all costs.

She's killed people/colleagues she's known for years if not decades, she's framed dembe and would have killed him had he been with Red in the cabin when it blew up.

I think there will be more collateral damage and (I hate to think this but-) that damage may spread to the task force. And I think, like Kirk, she may not be above using Agnes as a ploy. Maybe not jump off the roof with her but maybe something else. Kate is obsessed.

And it may be something like that which undoes Kate in the end - and turns Liz against her - the very person she is doing this for. Just imo of course.

lara1 · 4/21/2017 10:48 am

Tuxie400 wrote:
Honey West wrote:
lara1 wrote:
OK so why is Kate calling him the American? is she not American? just seems a bit odd.

Mostly I think that is to tie in with Katarina's journal entry about The American. Since they were in Canada, maybe she was differentiating him from the others? How many languages did Kate speak? For all we know she and Katarina could have been conversing in Russian. But I did catch that she referred to Alexander, not Constantin. But the newspaper article said she was married to billionaire "Constantine". So why call him Alexander to Kate?
Honey West - I noticed she called her husband Alexander too. It seems strange she wouldn't have called him Constantin.

Absolutely agree. That is odd

lara1 · 4/21/2017 10:50 am

Tuxie400 wrote:
Honey West and Patter - I didn't notice Masha holding her wrist. In fact, I kept wondering why she wasn't in more pain and why Kate wasn't tending to her wound.

Same here. I did not notice and why wasn't the wound dressed? That was a nasty burn. Need to rewatch of course!!

lara1 · 4/21/2017 10:53 am

Tuxie400 wrote:
Tatiana wrote:
I still think there's another side to this story. It does not make sense that Kate didn't know Red until after fire night. If we ever see the events through Red's perspective, I think we will see a completely different picture. It was interesting to see Katarina as being more fickle and careless about love. After Cape May she seemed so gentle and likeable. This filled out her character as a double agent/spy who betrays both countries and lots of men. The dynamic between Kate and Katarina is deeper than I had thought it to be.

Need to watch again lots of times! Wow, they really gave us some meat to chew on!
I agree that this Kateaina was very different from Cape May Katerina. But in this episode we see her through Kate's eyes. (Mr. Kaplan is emotionally not normal. I've always thought she might be on the Autism spectrum.) I didn't like this Katarina much. I found her comment about Raymond being an assignment and the affair to be "frivolous" to be very cold and calculating. And forbidding Kate from loving the baby - that was a bit creepy too.

Agree - and I thought she came across as a bit of a witch. Yes I mean with a "w" lol. But then again if she's been trained as a spy she wouldn't be warm and fuzzy I guess.

lara1 · 4/21/2017 10:58 am

Honey West wrote:
I think this show is full of people who were messed up since childhood who seem to have all found one another for some extremely toxic adult relationships.

Another thing with the Kate/Red meeting in the warehouse was that it seems to have taken place well after Red went criminal and was selling secrets. In our timeline that would have been around 1994, right?

I could not reconcile that. It says Kate disappeared in 1991 but not clear exactly when that was. At first I thought Red gave her the ability to disappear so that would have been 1991. But that makes no sense if he'd already built up criminal activity.

Tuxie400 · 4/21/2017 11:02 am

Honey West wrote:
Patter wrote:
One thing I didn't quite grasp is if Kate is actually Russian (or if it was just the actress' accent)? The beginning of the episode opens with a young Kate (maybe age 7-10) and she and the father appeared American.
Was Katarina hiding in Canada? Was that Summer Palace? And did Kat ever say the name of the man she fought with in the kitchen? Finally, did we ever see Kirk? At first that's who I thought the guy in the kitchen was.

Have a lot of questions!

Young Kirk is listed in the credits, so he was there.

Maybe Young Kirk's scene was cut.

Tuxie400 · 4/21/2017 11:07 am

Tatiana wrote:
Ok, I was trying to reconcile what Aram said about Kate's history and what we know from the episode. If Kate's mother died in 1962, how old do you think Kate is?

The child Kate in the beginning funeral scene looked anywhere from 7-9 to me. I guess the character is younger than the actress who plays her.

lara1 · 4/21/2017 11:09 am

Tuxie400 wrote:
lara1 wrote:
Tatiana wrote:
Serious continuity problem here.

Yes, and in Mato, when kate mentioned Annie and what happened to her, when Red said, you know I don't know, that I was away, it made it sound like they already were working together or something. It now sounds like all he meant was that was the period of time during which he was off the radar??
It's not a continuity problem if Red is Katerina. That's the only way it makes sense.

Tuxie400 - yes it would. And remember Kate talked about protecting Liz as Red asked her to all those years ago - twice in the Mato episode including before she was shot. Was Kate harking back to her initial days as super nanny?

It would also explain why Kate and Red were so emotionally close. If they did not have a bond to begin with. If she hated Red, not sure they would build up affection over the years. And Red calling her Kate

Need to rewatch the red/ Kaplan scene closely. Did you notice the camera focus on Red in that scene?

Then again there may be another explanation. We may get a few more crumbs dropped during the rest of the Kaplan episodes.

Last edited by lara1 (4/21/2017 11:09 am)

Tuxie400 · 4/21/2017 11:12 am

lara1 - I don't think Kate was behind blowing up the cabin. I think that was Mountain Man. I will agree with obsessed rather than unhinged to describe Kate. I don't know that she framed Dembe. He just happened to pour the poisoned Scotch. As we all said at the time, Red normally pours his own drinks. As for the others who were collateral damage, she views them as criminals and well worth sacrificing to save Liz and Agnes. They are her priority.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (4/21/2017 11:12 am)

Tuxie400 · 4/21/2017 11:16 am

lara1 wrote:
Honey West wrote:
I think this show is full of people who were messed up since childhood who seem to have all found one another for some extremely toxic adult relationships.

Another thing with the Kate/Red meeting in the warehouse was that it seems to have taken place well after Red went criminal and was selling secrets. In our timeline that would have been around 1994, right?
I could not reconcile that. It says Kate disappeared in 1991 but not clear exactly when that was. At first I thought Red gave her the ability to disappear so that would have been 1991. But that makes no sense if he'd already built up criminal activity.

I think she first dropped off the grid when she met Annie and moved to Texas. She probably changed her name and lived under an assumed identity then. People were after Katarina, and by association, Kate.

Tuxie400 · 4/21/2017 11:30 am

Mr. Kaplan is a weird and creepy character. I think her background - going from medical school dropout to super nanny is sort of strange. Didn't she say she worked as a nanny for diplomats? It would seem she liked a job where she could see the world.

Kate didn't seem flustered at all by Kaarina's altercation in the kitchen, and she seemed willing to do anything for Katarina. I get the impression, she may have been in love with Katarina in her odd, emotionless way. She did seem broken up about Katarina when she met Annie.

And speaking of Annie - she seemed out of Kate's league. What in the world attracted her to Kate?

LDJones · 4/21/2017 12:34 pm

Although it's not my favorite theory, what we saw last night would work if Katarina became Red. Suppose Liz did shoot and kill Red that night. Then Katarina on the phone from Cape May could have been saying good bye as herself. She had (excellent) plastic surgery and gender assignment surgery and came back to continue as Red. Works with her statement to Kirk, "Elizabeth is my daughter." And his statement to Liz in season 1 that he wasn't her father. Kate must have eventually known, hence her statement about Red putting infant Liz in her arms. Katarina looked like she was injured in the fire, hence the scars on Red's back. The way Red was lit in the scene with young Kate, showing only his eyes, us similar to camera shots of he and imaginary Katrain in the cottage at Cape May. And how much does Dom know? They certainly had a familial relationship. I know it's o ly a theory, but it helps so much make sense. (Although completely different body types!) And there are those women he's had affairs with. Oh well!

Tatiana · 4/21/2017 1:59 pm

Honey West wrote:
That's because "this" Katarina was the real Katarina and Cape May's Katarina was a product of Red's drugged out imagination and even he didn't recognize her. Maybe like Red with women, Katarina had the ability to make men feel like they were the center of her universe. Many faces to many people. Kirk's comment to Red that "you remember what she did, but not who she was."

I think you're right Honey West. I watched Requiem again this morning and the dialogue between Kate and Katarina is remarkably strange, very similar to the cadence and oddness of Cape May. TBL is a multifaceted story. And each character tells a different story. Like Red, Kate's perception is altered, except for her it's migraines, not opium.

Tuxie400 · 4/21/2017 2:33 pm

Tatiana wrote:
Honey West wrote:
That's because "this" Katarina was the real Katarina and Cape May's Katarina was a product of Red's drugged out imagination and even he didn't recognize her. Maybe like Red with women, Katarina had the ability to make men feel like they were the center of her universe. Many faces to many people. Kirk's comment to Red that "you remember what she did, but not who she was."
I think you're right Honey West. I watched Requiem again this morning and the dialogue between Kate and Katarina is remarkably strange, very similar to the cadence and oddness of Cape May. TBL is a multifaceted story. And each character tells a different story. Like Red, Kate's perception is altered, except for her it's migraines, not opium.

Tatiana - I agree with you about the strangeness and the cadence of the dialog between Katarina and Kate. The migraines may be altering Kate's perception somewhat. Good observation!

lara1 · 4/21/2017 4:45 pm

LDJones #92 - Yes, I think the Mom theory is the easiest fit. Although for me the medical/science issues and things like physicality are issues. Also, if Red is Mom then some of the actions and dialog of Red with Liz particularly in seasons 1 and 2 are a bit strange. I also don't think some of the prior dialogue holds up, including some of what is in Cape May and Artax.

It also doesn't explain Naomi and her interactions with Red although it might explain why Red feels no real connection with Jennifer - as Katarina would have had no connection whatsoever with her, it would appear.

Also still unexplained are things like ballet girl and bubble girl, but those references could go many ways.

It may be that there is another explanation - something we haven't seen - maybe Red (or someone else) arranged for Kaplan to enter that household, maybe even watch Katerina. Maybe her "diplomatic" work was a hint. And I can't recall where Kaplan said she went to medical school - was it the US? how then did she end up on an island in Canada? If Red did "hire" her, then maybe Kaplan went against him once things went South, or she could have just developed a real and lasting affection for both Katerina (I sensed that undercurrent) and Masha/Liz.

Still the Mom theory is definitely viable. A re watch is definitely on the cards!

Last edited by lara1 (4/21/2017 4:47 pm)

lara1 · 4/21/2017 4:50 pm

Tuxie400 #91 - Yes, I thought it was strange that Kate didn't seem in the least bit flustered by what happened in the kitchen. Katarina said she thought of killing her but we see Kaplan talk her way around that one. And she knew how to do that.

So it does make me think if we have the full story on Kaplan, or just most of it - did they leave us a little bit of mystery - or not?

Last edited by lara1 (4/21/2017 4:50 pm)

Tatiana · 4/21/2017 5:14 pm

Some thoughts -

1. Continuity - Kate seemed from the outset like she knew Katarina was a spy. She reacted to everything Katarina did in a indiscreet way, no questions asked. But Katarina also gave her the love she missed out on from her mother when she died when Kate was quite young.

2. How many degrees can you get? Kate went to Med school, then got a masters in Childhood Development. Plus she was nanny to 7? (or 6?) children, all with parents who are high level diplomats. I have to rewatch this to count it all up, but she would have been maybe 30 by this point. Her mothers funeral was 1962 and she looked to be 8? years old?

3. Mom/gender reassignment theory - Dom knew Red immediately. The last time he saw Red was presumably the night of the fire. Could Katarina really have surgery to match her face so perfectly like Red's? Does the dialogue between Red and Dom make sense in the context of Katerina into Red theory.

Tatiana · 4/21/2017 5:18 pm

Oh yeah.

Kaplan's wedding ring. She didn't wear it at all in the flashbacks. I had thought she might have exchanged rings with Annie, but so far, there is no explanation.

Tatiana · 4/21/2017 5:28 pm

Bokenkamp in the EW interview said:

Is Katarina really dead?
Well, she went into the water, I don't know. I don't know how to answer that anymore. I'm sorry.

Red was the man who kidnapped Masha when she was young?
Yes, that's who we saw in the relationship and in that car. Yes, that is true.

Colleen · 4/21/2017 5:55 pm

Tatiana wrote:
Oh yeah.

Kaplan's wedding ring. She didn't wear it at all in the flashbacks. I had thought she might have exchanged rings with Annie, but so far, there is no explanation.

Oooh Tatiana! Good point about the ring! I don't think that is a clue the writers would have forgotten, especially since Tom and Liz made a fuss about Katarina's ring matching Berlin's ring. I remember Blacklist Support Group posted side by side photos of Kaplan's and Katarina's rings and they were not a match.