The Blacklist Refugees » The Blacklist Episode 4.5 "The Lindquist Concern" Discussion

lara1 · 10/23/2016 12:17 pm

Observations on Re-Watch of Episode 5.

Well this episode was a symbols bonanza! haven't had that in a while. Here is what I saw/heard and some interesting connections too (well I think so, LOL!)

Ocean/Water/Related
- The first inventor that the Blacklister goes after has perfected a desalination process to convert “sea”water to drinkable water
- The doctor is in a tub of water and is being tortured with fish
- Red to Dembe: “fish him out of the tub” (really starting to wonder about all these Ahab references!!)
- Samar to Elise: hello - I hope you didn’t flood the apartment again
-“By the River” plays out the episode (haven't looked at the lyrics yet)

Pianos/organs/music/art
- The organ in the church - Red playing (wonder why they have moved from the grand pianos from Seasons 1-3; my guess is that the piano is associated with Red, not Krik)
- Red knowing the artist who is in charge of restoring the church

Church/religion-
-Kirk = church
-Red squatting in the church; church being restored
- Brimley to Red: the doctor has been baptized and is awaiting his confession
- Red: I usually have a devil of a time sleeping. but here I sleep like a babe in manger
- Stained glass window depicting “let the little children come to me”, prominent at start of episode and in the last scene when Liz delivers the DNA test (thanks to Tatiana and Tuxie400 for helping to identify the subject of the window scene)
- The magnesium battery worked on by Riley is referred to as the “holy grail” of energy

Children/welfare of children
- The stained glass window in the church (ties in with church symbolism)
- The Swiss staging point used for children smuggled out of France during WWII (and used by Red) - Oeuvre de Secours aux Enfants
- The baby (doll) in the test vehicle of the second inventor
-(connection between water and baby/children (the two inventors - water and the baby in the test vehicle? maybe a reach but- ref back to the baptism scene in season 3 and “drowning” in baptismal front in Season 2 (Ruslan Denisov). Maybe also tie in with Swan Lake and St. George (princess in the lake, if you think that Liz is the “princess”).

The four elements
.Various references, some obvious, some tenuous:
- Water - mentioned above;
- Fire - the car bomb, references in dialog: Silas plays a tape that says “for a surefire confidence booster”; Aram speaks of a “fire” suppression “agent”; someone refers to Silas’ demand as a “smokescreen”;
- earth - Liz references to Red no need for “scorched earth” approach; and land war in Asia
-air - Blacklister tries to kill Riley by carbon monoxide poisoning

Nuclear/Energy
- One of the inventors of the patent that Red wanted is from Santa Fe - home of Los Alamos and Manhattan project (I didn’t actually see this on the screen but social media and TBLE has it as Santa Fe)
- Riley, the second inventor is working on a solution for a magnesium battery

Names-
Vasily - name of the Russian attache. Wasn’t that also the name of the Russian cabal operative in Moscow who facilitated Karakurt’s entry into the US - I forget the agency name but its the same agency for the ring that both Berlin and Katarina had?
- Silas - clue to Red? n the novel “Silas Marner” , Silas is falsely accused of theft, was framed by his best friend, and Silas’ fiancee leaves him for his best friend - Silas leaves the village…hmmm. In the book, Silas also “adopts” a little girl whose mother has died in the snow. (Red framed for theft of the Fulcrum by a friend or someone else close??)

Interesting/Fun references
- Nice touch of Liz confronting Red in the "church" at the end about “lies” where the doctor had done his “confession” at the outset of the episode
- Additional references to baths- Elise to Aram about his apartment becoming a “bubble bath”; Cooper talks to Hitchens about wanting to avoid a “bloodbath” with Silas-
- Samar to Ressler about Elise: something about her “bugs” me - clue close up to Elise and Aram, and Elise’s earring which was also shown during her phone call with Samar - Elise tucks her hair behind her ear to reveal the earring. Probably a misdirect! LOL

The patent - I couldn't see any connection in the names. Both Los Alamos and the research triangle in Raleigh are research centers and among other things, research into biotech and bioscience which just ties into the overall Kirk illness theme. the individual names i couldn't really connect except tenuously to each of three religions but I don't think the names necessarily mean anything, only the research locations.....
Edited to include the reference to the fulcrum under "Names" - Silas

Last edited by lara1 (10/23/2016 4:47 pm)

lara1 · 10/23/2016 12:31 pm

Questions on the Re-watch of episode 5

- Is Elise wearing an MIT T-shirt? hmmm
- Tom seems not to believe Kirk and seems to be worried that Liz believes Kirk - per his conversation with Ressler. Liz says she is in the middle between Red and Kirk and Tom and Kirk. I wonder why Tom also does not believe Kirk. I wonder if his aim is also to kill Kirk when rescuing Agnes, is this another motive for his taking his own actions?
- Ressler is in contact with Tom directly. hmmm At the end, Tom knew they did not get Agnes because Ressler called him. Really? Gives a bit of fuel to the fire of those thinking that Tom and Ressler have been working together for a while and Ressler may have been in on the "fake death". And is Ressler the mole? Not sure I subscribe to either idea but its interesting to ponder.
-Someone on the task force may be the mole - I remembered that Liz called in to the task force for surveillance footage, schematics etc of the place they thought Kirk would be in Geneva.

Last edited by lara1 (10/23/2016 4:37 pm)

lara1 · 10/23/2016 1:15 pm

Further thoughts on the DNA test. What if the results are false, but not because the test was swapped or the results swapped, but because of the DNA itself?

At question also is the age of the DNA test. Was there even reliable paternity DNA testing 25-30 years ago? I'm not an expert on this. But I think DNA test results, if they even existed back then, would be less reliable than now. Was there even such thing back then as a DNA test to "swap" results?

So - was the DNA testing done of of the swab of Liz' blood that Solomon took in 3.18?

What if - - that DNA test was more recent and done off of that swab that Solomon took (or other blood sample).

And what if - admittedly a big if - that test incorrectly points to a Kirk/Liz connection not because its planted (why would Kirk be after Liz/Agnes for stem cells if he didn't think that they really were his daughter/granddaughter)? What if the test points to the wrong conclusion because Liz's DNA had been changed to Kirk's years ago and so (based on the other DNA threads that I have read here) the blood test reveals a connection to Kirk, but her real DNA and ancestry, is to someone else, whose DNA does not appear in the DNA blood test? It might just be possible, if a stretch, if my most recent readings on DNA testing are correct. HMMM

food for thought on a Sunday afternoon!

Last edited by lara1 (10/23/2016 1:16 pm)

deadskie13 · 10/23/2016 5:24 pm

lara1 wrote:
OK no way I trust that DNA report. in an SVR file? and how did it get there and why didn't the Kremlin want it released in the first place???

I was also wondering about this, and figured if the Soviet Union is after Kirk, and if they had DNA evidence that proved Liz was his biological daughter--then why on Earth wouldn't they have tried to, at the very least, use her as leverage against Kirk when she showed up at the Embassy? If they want him that bad, I mean, it just seems like they would have at least tried to hash something out. ^-^

deadskie13 · 10/23/2016 5:27 pm

lara1 wrote:
saw a tweet where Kurt Kuenne says that the tune Red played on the organ was "Crime of Passion" - the same tune Dom played on the piano in Artax. Hmmm, so another link with Dom - and "Nick" (Red for those who haven't read my theory on Red and St. Nicholas - topic under "general discussion" section)

hmmm

I just re-watched The Artax Network a hot second ago, and looking at the drawing that's the same from this season, I'm wondering if it just isn't the dealy-o where little kids tend to draw the same thing over and over and over. And at some point in time, one of Liz's drawings got shoved in a trunk full of her mom's old stuff. Not necessarily relevant to the topic at hand. But, achem, yes. ::scurries::

deadskie13 · 10/23/2016 5:29 pm

Honey West wrote:
BBB #50 I pick none of the above. My prime suspect is Elise. She's come out of nowhere, pretends to be a ditz, is face timing Aram at work - a huge security no no - and I don't think she was sent by Red, after his remark to Cooper about fixing Aram up with someone. Red would have known if Aram had a girlfriend already, he knows almost everything, but especially about the Post Office people, especially after Anslo Garrick. So my money's on Elise being Kirk's spy.

I'm leaning towards her, too. She's just too good of a fit for the jig to not be up. ^-^ If she's not working for Kirk, I still think she could be a plant of some sort, for perhaps a future Blacklister-yet-to-be. Another "big gun" and such.

deadskie13 · 10/23/2016 5:36 pm

lara1 wrote:
The LIz/Red DNA confrontation - Interesting. Usually in the series when Liz angrily confronts Red out of the blue she has got some info and drawn incorrect conclusions. Except when she confronted Red about killing Sam. But there, Red did tell her the truth as difficult as that was. Here he says nothing which leads me to think that either Liz is wrong or Red thinks she is wrong. And when she says you lied to me, he does not say "yes". He says nothing. So either he is completely taken aback and buying time to work out how to handle this, or he knows Liz is wrong but doesn't want to tell her why she is wrong. All just my opinion of course.

One thing I always go back to, is way back in the series, when Tom tells Liz that Reddington's "tell" is his silence. I think Tom's gotten a lot of things about Red incorrect--but I always kind of sort of lean towards this as being the one thing he got right.

Figure Red has no trouble admitting terrible things--nor does he have an issue in giving simple responses of YES or NO when confronted with a direct question that he sees no way out of. His hesitation seems to always be when it's something he wants to avoid so much, that he freezes; he doesn't even have the thought-process to deflect with a changed topic, like he usually does--and that is almost always in direct regards as to Lizzy questioning if he is her father.

deadskie13 · 10/23/2016 5:44 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
Maybe I was just tired, but not much in this ep made sense to me. I never understood what the blacklister was doing. And was Hitchins just doing Reddington's bidding all along? Which invention did he want?

I could be completely wrong, but I froze the screen to try and grab as much info as I could, and this is what Hitchin forked over to Red:

Matthew--Hadj--Sante Fe
Sonia--Bloom--Raleigh

And then at the very bottom--and of course it cuts off all the info--you can see "Development and Application" on one line, and then "Gen..." on the second. My bet is, that incomplete word is "genetic". So I'm thinking between the virus heist and the invention deal, Red just snagged the cure to Kirk's genetic disorder.

deadskie13 · 10/23/2016 5:49 pm

lara1 wrote:
At question also is the age of the DNA test. Was there even reliable paternity DNA testing 25-30 years ago? I'm not an expert on this. But I think DNA test results, if they even existed back then, would be less reliable than now. Was there even such thing back then as a DNA test to "swap" results?

I grew up the only child of a single-parent, and I did the whole DNA test dealy-o when I was about six-years-old, and I'm closer to thirty-nine, than not. So yus! Quite reliable. At least I think so. Or else, shhh....don't tell my dad!

Last edited by deadskie13 (10/23/2016 8:39 pm)

deadskie13 · 10/23/2016 6:26 pm

A few more notes on this episode:

So I think Red is constructing the cure for Kirk's condition. And the reason being is, it'll be the leverage he was talking about, to get Agnes back. (I do, however, think that Red most certainly will not give the cure to Kirk, and that there's no way this will end well for Mr. Alexander. I do think Red will use it to save Skyler, though!)

Ressler working directly with Tom, is top-notch stuff. Because first off, it shows that Donald isn't seeing things in terms of pure black-and-white, now. And second of all, it's making him a better agent; it's slowly turning him into a Cooper, of sorts.

Liz tells Tom that their daughter is missing "because of Kirk's obsession with her". Because Liz realizes that Kirk is obsessed with her, not Reddington. I believe this is a significant break-through that kind of sort of coasted just beneath the surface, considering Elizabeth has been blaming Red a long time, for everything. But, here she is, taking the responsibility for this one. Whoo-hoo! Character growth! :D

No one besides Dembe and Red know exactly what happened to Mr. Kaplan. I believe when Red's other associates find out, it's going to cause them to take two-steps back, and tip-toe around him--where previously, everyone always seemed pretty comfortable in his presence.

I think Dembe's confession plants the seed in Red's head that he may have been wrong in his actions. I hope this opens the door for an eventual reconciliation of sorts. (I realize at this point in time, I'm hoping against hope--but I do so want Kaplan back in the picture, and back on Red's side.)

Furthermore, I think it's important to note that Dembe tells Red that he is praying for forgiveness. Red tells Lizzy that Dembe was praying for salvation. These things are not the same. I think Red was trying to make his own sort of peace while at the church, too--except Red mentions "salvation that will never come". So he's already cursed himself to being irredeemable.

At the same time, I think it's important to note that Red is comfortable in churches. I believe this points to him feeling like there's no salvation for him--but at the same time, that he's going to keep doing what he does, because it's for the greater good.

So the doctor up and tells Liz, "I can't defend everything he's done, but I can defend why he did it." When push comes to shove, if Lizzy's honest with herself, she can say the exact same thing about Reddington.

Also, the doctor goes on to state that Kirk is a "good man". We clearly know he is not. For all intents and purposes, the doctor seems sincere and legit in his opinion of Kirk. Let's point out that Red has never pretended to be a good person. Two sides the coin. I still think Kirk is full of beautiful lies, while Red is dishing out ugly truths.

Red saves the medical team, even though he most certainly doesn't have to. I like to think this points to Red slowly becoming less unhinged, and more Red-ish, so to speak. He isn't back to full capacity just yet, but at the same time, he isn't all out of control. Also-also, this may point to him creating a cure for Kirk's condition, on account of inheriting a built-in medical expert team.

One thing I enjoy immensely about The Blacklist, is the bit where it's not afraid to drag very important and prevalent issues into the light--and that it does so, without being preachy or wishy-washy or making light of the situation. Given as such, I tip my hat to Ressler and Samar's convo with the doctor Silas was pretending to be.

Ressler gave Tom the lead that he forked over to Liz, that allowed her to call Red and warn him about the set-up. Inadvertently, Donald just saved Red's life. If this chain of events makes its way back to either one of them, they're going to be kicking themselves for a very, very long time!

At the same time, the info on the flash drive they snag from Silas, goes like this: FBI-->Hitchin-->Red. So even when the Task Force takes a loss, as Ressler sees it, they end up winning. I know beforehand Cooper and Co. considered any win for Red to be a loss for them--but I think even though they're oblivious and/or unhappy about the outcome, it's still far less dangerous for Red to have all the info, than it would be for an unchecked Hitchin and Cabal to have it.

Hitchin's face when Red states his take in the whole deal, is priceless!

That being said, I think there's a clear lesson this season, and that is this: Red needs to learn that he cannot do this alone. Kate said it, Lizzy keeps saying it--and now Dembe is kind of hitting it home. I feel like at the start, maybe, it was fine for him to be in control and move all the puzzle pieces around on his own. But at some point in time, the picture got too big; too jumbled, and the person used to doing everything alone needs to stop pushing people away, and instead, pull those around him closer. And I love that, truly. This little twist in the game. Because for the longest time, it was about how much everyone could trust Red--and now, it's going to be about how much he can trust others. So much potential for character growth, that it has me standing on tippy-toes and everything! :D

David · 10/23/2016 8:11 pm

'DNA: I am not a scientist, but here's my amateur take: Alexander Kirk is not Liz' father. Instead, Alexander Kirk's deceased brother (shot by Liz) is the father. This could still tie Liz to Alexander Kirk's DNA. Alexander Kirk and his (possible) brother are Decembrists, and were involved in the attempt to take over Russia in the fall of the Soviet Union. They both have had hemophilia (which ran in the Romanov czarist family), and Liz's and Agnes' blood transfusions might temporarily help him. If all this speculation proves true, then Red would be telling Liz the truth that neither he nor Alexander Kirk are her father, and that Liz shot her father (the deceased brother).

Eastcoast · 10/23/2016 10:43 pm

Hello to all the new poeple if I have not said that yet!

deadskie13, you said,
Tom tells Liz that Reddington's "tell" is his silence. Yes!
which episode was that?

and

#103, I did the same thing and thats what I got too. I think the GEN is genetic
and he has a cure to offer kirk.

Lara1,and deadskie13,

That file just bugs me!
Something old and something new yet so thin...
It had been updated that morning to say Kirk had been in Russia,
and Had a DNA report in it from when? Who puts a persons DNA report of
their children in those? Almost makes you wonder if it came from Kirk somehow? Maybe that guy contacted him first?Maybe he wanted that to be seen by Tom so he could show Liz. He also might have wanted to see if she would warn Red or not.

So, We know the Mole is the post office from the promo.
So many ways the writers could lead us on this.
Samar is mad, so could be her...
Aram with a girlfriend all of a sudden so it could be her...
Could be Hitchens since she knew just when to pop up and everything that was going on.
She might have thought she was getting Red out of the way. The look on her face was most delightful!
And I said before that I still think the Artax Network is running because we heard the term "team Leader" again.
Hitchen would have no problem helping them get into the system to hear everything. She had Total access!!

lara1,
they had DNa testing back then but it was not as good as it is now.

Honey west...
You mentioned the Chimera effect. That was weird becasue it is not something that comes up very ofen and
I was explainging this to someone a few weeks ago that never heard of it. We were discussing how people get off things because of DNA evidence and I said what if they had 2 sets of DNa? It does make you wonder??

This brings me to something i wanted to mention a while back about what Diane Fowler said and keep forgetting.
Not sure if it has been mentioned.

I think to keep Liz safe he might have had those reports faked at one point, or could have had Lizzies DNA tampered with so that she couldnt be easily connected to him.

It would be a long shot, but I was also wondering if Reds family were killed or if they put fake people there and he thought it was them like we saw the Alchemist do.
It was just odd for Diane Fowler to say that knew what happened to his family as if
he didnt know they were probably dead.
For all we know they were Naomi and Jennifer and they made him belive they were dead.
I was thinking that after he saw her picture in that file and he told Liz, She was his wife.
Liz also tells him that they were put in protective custody. He didnt look like he knew that.
They apparently had no contact because she was telling him she had not said anything about him or Elizabeth.
Not just because they said how they had changed, to which I thought who wouldn't in that many years, but that slap seamed a long long time comming!

And, my last thing tonight is...I didnt see anyone else mention it so if they did I didnt see it and sorry to repeat anything.
But Did anyone else notice that when Red woke Dr.Reifler up in the last episode the first thing the Dr. says is
'I don't understand, Skyler Ayers is doing fine? '
So am I to gather that they already knew each other and Red has something to do with his treatments?
Or did I miss something?

Last edited by Eastcoast (10/23/2016 10:48 pm)

lara1 · 10/23/2016 10:44 pm

deadskie13 - thanks for sharing all of your thoughts! I do like reading your insights on things.

on #110 - I like your idea that Red is building a case to get a cure for Kirk - not that he will give it to him - and that he might give it to Skylar (that would be the "old" Red back with us) - and that maybe he will even use the doctor's medical team to do so. I agree with you on the patent - something to do with genetics, genomes, some kind of biotech thing. well that's my best guess now

I also like your idea that Red may come to realize that he needs to pull people closer to him, not push them away, in that he needs help with the complexity of what the global puzzle has become. It makes me think back to that comment to him by Liz at the end of Earle King - something like, You are so damaged. You can't accept help from anyone. then she says something like he should say thank you. Well in Ep 5, he does say thank you, without prompting, for saving his life. Although at the same time, I think Red was looking for Liz's help to get the "map of doom" under control and he hasn't really got that since he showed it to her, really.

I like your avatar!

Separately - a small piece of me wonders whether Liz did tip off Kirk after all, then regret her decision and change her mind as she did in Season 1 when she set up Red to be re-captured by the FBI, then realized she had made a mistake and goes to warn him. Maybe in warning Kirk she didn't realize that Kirk, instead of just avoiding the arranged meeting place, would actually set a trap, and something that Kirk or Tom or both of them said made her realize that was what had happened and she then called Red. Not sure that really was the case, but a small part of me does liken it to that scene in Season 1. I hope not!

Tatiana · 10/23/2016 11:09 pm

Deadskie: Who is Skyler?
Love your synopsis! "beautiful lies; ugly truth" that was a fantastic sentence!

Lara - another Christmas reference! "I usually have a devil of a time falling asleep, but here I sleep like a babe in the manger"
Great catch on "Silas" Marner. Very compelling parallel!

Isnt it possible Red and Kirk are brothers?

deadskie13 · 10/23/2016 11:27 pm

David wrote:
'DNA: I am not a scientist, but here's my amateur take: Alexander Kirk is not Liz' father. Instead, Alexander Kirk's deceased brother (shot by Liz) is the father. This could still tie Liz to Alexander Kirk's DNA. Alexander Kirk and his (possible) brother are Decembrists, and were involved in the attempt to take over Russia in the fall of the Soviet Union. They both have had hemophilia (which ran in the Romanov czarist family), and Liz's and Agnes' blood transfusions might temporarily help him. If all this speculation proves true, then Red would be telling Liz the truth that neither he nor Alexander Kirk are her father, and that Liz shot her father (the deceased brother).

That's a very interesting thought! Figure we've considered Red to be Lizzy's uncle, but it's also plausible Kirk could be. And, that he's just pulling the father card to add insult to injury; if he can't find Red to kill him, then at the very least, he can seek to discredit Red's relationship with Liz.

I almost feel like Lizzy's father has to be Red at this point in time, though. I mean it wouldn't be unlike the writers to deliberately point us in such a direction, only to pull a fast one. It's just that it'd be a great disappointment if Kirk were her biological father, and it would come out of nowhere if they tossed some unknown third-party into the mix, this late in the game. That being said, your theory could work, though!

lara1 · 10/23/2016 11:28 pm

Tatiana wrote:
.....

Lara - another Christmas reference! "I usually have a devil of a time falling asleep, but here I sleep like a babe in the manger"
Great catch on "Silas" Marner. Very compelling parallel!

Isnt it possible Red and Kirk are brothers?

HI Tatiana, thanks for that! How could I miss that was a Christmas reference in addition to a church reference. Wow I am really starting to think this St. Nicholas/Red link could lead to something. That is kind of an, uh, obvious clue if there ever was one! The trick is in figuring out what the "Nicholas" link is truly pointing toward....

I think Red and Kirk being brothers could be awesome and lead to more drama - and maybe explain the DNA results - but I think someone asked one of the show's producers or creators, way back when Kirk first appeared on the scene...with that dialogue about having a gun in Reds mouth....if they were brothers and the answer was no.

So do we believe them - or maybe - half-brothers then (that would continue the sort of opposite mirrors of each other theme)...

food for thought!

Last edited by lara1 (10/23/2016 11:30 pm)

deadskie13 · 10/23/2016 11:48 pm

Eastcoast wrote:
deadskie13, you said,
Tom tells Liz that Reddington's "tell" is his silence. Yes!
which episode was that?

Oh, goodness! I don't remember the specific one. I want to say it's towards the end of season 2--after Elizabeth gets ticked off at Red for not answering questions about her mom (after she goes to his flat), but before the whole Karakurt deal.

Eastcoast wrote:
#103, I did the same thing and thats what I got too. I think the GEN is genetic
and he has a cure to offer kirk.

I was afraid I was going to accidentally leave someone out! Sorry! But I think we're right--between the virus and the genetic invention of sorts, I'm willing to bet Red has already pieced together the missing info Kirk needs to fix his condition. Which is very Reddington, indeed. Figure Kirk may have been besting Red these past few episodes--but Red's going to get the final checkmate!

Eastcoast wrote:
Lara1,and deadskie13,

That file just bugs me!
Something old and something new yet so thin...
It had been updated that morning to say Kirk had been in Russia,
and Had a DNA report in it from when? Who puts a persons DNA report of
their children in those? Almost makes you wonder if it came from Kirk somehow? Maybe that guy contacted him first?Maybe he wanted that to be seen by Tom so he could show Liz. He also might have wanted to see if she would warn Red or not.

Mm. I don't know if that would be too much or not. For Kirk to have thought that far ahead, I mean. It's feasible, certainly. And while I like that Kirk has been able to go toe-to-toe with Red, and has even managed to get the upper-hand a couple of times, I somehow see Red as more of the strategist than Kirk. I don't know. I guess, because of Kirk's condition, I see him as someone who takes a backseat more often than not. Kind of like how Luther Braxton accused Red of not getting his hands dirty (which, boy was he wrong!). And so I think Kirk has been scrambling a bit, instead of plotting. He's good at hiding, I mean--but that's about it.

Eastcoast wrote:
So, We know the Mole is the post office from the promo.
So many ways the writers could lead us on this.
Samar is mad, so could be her...
Aram with a girlfriend all of a sudden so it could be her...
Could be Hitchens since she knew just when to pop up and everything that was going on.
She might have thought she was getting Red out of the way. The look on her face was most delightful!
And I said before that I still think the Artax Network is running because we heard the term "team Leader" again.
Hitchen would have no problem helping them get into the system to hear everything. She had Total access!!

Oh my goodness! Wouldn't it be amazing, if it was Hitchins? Wouldn't it be absolutely glorious to see Red exact such sweet revenge? We haven't had that in awhile!

Eastcoast wrote:
This brings me to something i wanted to mention a while back about what Diane Fowler said and keep forgetting.
Not sure if it has been mentioned.

I think to keep Liz safe he might have had those reports faked at one point, or could have had Lizzies DNA tampered with so that she couldnt be easily connected to him.

It would be a long shot, but I was also wondering if Reds family were killed or if they put fake people there and he thought it was them like we saw the Alchemist do.
It was just odd for Diane Fowler to say that knew what happened to his family as if
he didnt know they were probably dead.
For all we know they were Naomi and Jennifer and they made him belive they were dead.
I was thinking that after he saw her picture in that file and he told Liz, She was his wife.
Liz also tells him that they were put in protective custody. He didnt look like he knew that.
They apparently had no contact because she was telling him she had not said anything about him or Elizabeth.
Not just because they said how they had changed, to which I thought who wouldn't in that many years, but that slap seamed a long long time comming!

All of this is certainly plausible--but I really don't think Jennifer is Red's daughter, at all. He even said as much, to Elizabeth--"What makes you think she's my daughter?" And so I think the question as to who Red's daughter(s) is/are and what happened to her/them, is further down the rabbit hole, still. I do think Red could have very easily manipulated Liz's genetic profile to keep certain things safe.

Eastcoast wrote:
And, my last thing tonight is...I didnt see anyone else mention it so if they did I didnt see it and sorry to repeat anything.
But Did anyone else notice that when Red woke Dr.Reifler up in the last episode the first thing the Dr. says is
'I don't understand, Skyler Ayers is doing fine? '
So am I to gather that they already knew each other and Red has something to do with his treatments?
Or did I miss something?

I didn't pick up on that! I'll have to give it a go at catching it, upon the next viewing.

Good stuff!

deadskie13 · 10/23/2016 11:58 pm

lara1 wrote:
on #110 - I like your idea that Red is building a case to get a cure for Kirk - not that he will give it to him - and that he might give it to Skylar (that would be the "old" Red back with us) - and that maybe he will even use the doctor's medical team to do so. I agree with you on the patent - something to do with genetics, genomes, some kind of biotech thing. well that's my best guess now

Old Red? Yes, please!

lara1 wrote:
I also like your idea that Red may come to realize that he needs to pull people closer to him, not push them away, in that he needs help with the complexity of what the global puzzle has become. It makes me think back to that comment to him by Liz at the end of Earle King - something like, You are so damaged. You can't accept help from anyone. then she says something like he should say thank you. Well in Ep 5, he does say thank you, without prompting, for saving his life. Although at the same time, I think Red was looking for Liz's help to get the "map of doom" under control and he hasn't really got that since he showed it to her, really.

I'm hopping all of that changes, once Agnes is back safe, and Kirk is dealt with. I'm very much looking forward to when Red gives Lizzy her full pardon from the (future) President. That's going to be such a great moment between them! And hopefully, it'll repair a lot of the damage that's been done.

lara1 wrote:
I like your avatar!

Aww, thanks! The Sadie monster sometimes likes to moonlight as a T-Rex.

lara1 wrote:
Separately - a small piece of me wonders whether Liz did tip off Kirk after all, then regret her decision and change her mind as she did in Season 1 when she set up Red to be re-captured by the FBI, then realized she had made a mistake and goes to warn him. Maybe in warning Kirk she didn't realize that Kirk, instead of just avoiding the arranged meeting place, would actually set a trap, and something that Kirk or Tom or both of them said made her realize that was what had happened and she then called Red. Not sure that really was the case, but a small part of me does liken it to that scene in Season 1. I hope not!

I hope not, too! I'm going to let her be innocent until proven guilty, on this one. It seemed to me like she forked over the information of the trap as soon as she got it, though. So we may be pretty safe on this one.

deadskie13 · 10/24/2016 12:15 am

Tatiana wrote:
Deadskie: Who is Skyler?
Love your synopsis! "beautiful lies; ugly truth" that was a fantastic sentence!

Lara - another Christmas reference! "I usually have a devil of a time falling asleep, but here I sleep like a babe in the manger"
Great catch on "Silas" Marner. Very compelling parallel!

Isnt it possible Red and Kirk are brothers?

Skyler is the little boy from last week's episode, who has the same blood condition as Kirk. The sundae meeting and such.

I think one of the on-going problems that Liz and Red keep facing, is the whole deal where she wants this fairytale kind of life--but at the same time, she's adamant on discovering the truth. And, she kind of doesn't realize that she can't have both. Not at the same time, at least. And Red, he knows all of that. He gets it.

And so it kind of is like this paternal relationship, where you're a little kid, and you see your parents eating a bag of chips--only they're salt and vinegar chips, and not the sort that you're used to. And you beg and beg and beg for one--and they keep saying no, you're not going to like it. But you're stubborn, and you know what you want--and so the second they're not looking, you have at it. And it's not what you expect, and it's not what you wanted, and no matter what you do, you can't get the taste out of your mouth. And then in your own stubbornness, you turn on your parents, and act like it's their fault--like they somehow tainted all the chips in the world to be salty and sour and gross; like they tricked you into thinking something would be great, despite them deliberately telling you it would not.

And anyways, it's a terrible analogy, truly--but I think that's how it keeps going for Red and Elizabeth. And granted, the whole deal could be avoided--or at least alleviated--if Red would explain why those answers would be so terrible to have. But he doesn't. So she keeps on thinking there's going to be some sort of wonderful pay off.

Kirk, on the other hand, is all no-no-no! You're right! There are only good chips in the world! And that, my friend, is a lie. (But everyone knows the salt and vinegar ones really are the best.)

I could be wrong--and I am terrible at keeping up with and/or referencing interviews and such--but I want to say the creators stated Kirk and Red are definitely not brothers. I thought that once upon a time, too.

Last edited by deadskie13 (10/24/2016 12:26 am)

Honey West · 10/24/2016 3:52 pm

deadskie13 wrote:
I think to keep Liz safe he might have had those reports faked at one point, or could have had Lizzies DNA tampered with so that she couldnt be easily connected to him.

So far he's only admitted to tampering with her memories. Who knows what else they tampered with. It wouldn't be too far-fetched to think they also tampered with her DNA at the same time. If they are only using blood samples for the DNA tests then it would be quite possible to fake out whoever was interested in the results. I think if they did a cheek swab or used anything other than blood it might show a different and correct result. And this did supposedly take place late 80's/early 90's, not the Stone Age, so these things were known and used. I think the first DNA testing was done in the 50's or earlier. The tests are more accurate and more quickly done nowadays, but that was a matter of having faster data processing systems today.

deadskie13 wrote:
He even said as much, to Elizabeth--"What makes you think she's my daughter?"

I believe they were referring to Zoe, weren't they? Liz thought he was looking for Jennifer, but Red knew she was Berlin's daughter, and that's who he was looking for. He let Liz think what she wanted to. As for Naomi, I think she was in on whatever was going on. Whether she was happy about it, I don't think so. At the very least, her husband had been having an affair with the little girl's mother. And she was being asked to keep that secret or maybe even help care for Elizabeth. He definitely deserved that slap.

Excellent observations everyone! I was out all day yesterday so I didn't get to read everything until today.