Patter and Honey West - I definitely think Elise is the spy. My comment about Brimley was mostly in jest. But something is going on with Samar. 

Honey West wrote:

The DNA report. So if this report is in a file from Russia about Kirk, and that was a good-sized file, how old is it? Is it specifically to prove Masha's paternity? Liz says it proves Kirk is her father. Does it spell it out or is she jumping to conclusions again? Red does his best not to react, but after she leaves, there is that little eye twitch that she got to him. Red stating that he has never lied to Liz. How are they going to resolve this? There'd better be a big payoff about that one of these days! The question of why Kirk was in Russia if the Kremlin hates him. Well, suppose Kirk is the Russian version of Reddington? On their most wanted list, living as a criminal to them. If Red can do it, why can't Kirk? Red and Kirk as the two sides of the same coin thing again. Red calling Liz the Mama Grizzly. (grin)

Honey West:  Exactly!  good points in your post, part of which I included again here.  And I like your thoughts on how Kirk could be the "Russian" "Reddington". Mirror images again....Here are some of my additional thoughts:  I think the Russian Kirk file itself is suspect,as is the "DNA" report  - then again I think the FBI file on Reddington is suspect also, for different reasons.  Again these are almost mirror images - the file on Kirk seems thick and almost too comprehensive (a DNA report on Liz, really?) whereas the FBI file on Red seems very thin.  Like not even any photos of him before his disappearance.  

The SVR file - Tom may or may not be working for Kirk but the Russian attache might have been.  Maybe Kirk wanted Tom to get that file.  Or Kirk may have substituted the contents or part of them (same as some theorize about the KR "journal").  If Kirk has someone like Halcyon (not necessarily Halcyon, just someone monitoring communications) he may have been told of Tom reaching out to the attache (or the attache could just be on Kirk's payroll, as apparently are a number of government officials around the world.)   Just food for thought.

The warehouse aftermath - Some loose ends - I loved the scene in the warehouse when Red speaks to Liz after the explosion.  Spader I thought was brilliant in that scene.  Red is genuinely starting to have doubts about Liz and which "side" she is on  (Though Red normally says there are no sides, only players, LOL).  Red is shocked/bewildered, trying to figure it out yet at the same time probably doesn't want to believe it was Liz though he knows he must consider that possibility.  't will be interesting to see where that goes next week.

The LIz/Red DNA confrontation - Interesting.  Usually in the series when Liz angrily confronts Red out of the blue she has got some info and drawn incorrect conclusions.  Except when she confronted Red about killing Sam.  But there, Red did tell her the truth as difficult as that was.  Here he says nothing which leads me to think that either Liz is wrong or Red thinks she is wrong.  And when she says you lied to me, he does not say "yes".  He says nothing.  So either he is completely taken aback and buying time to work out how to handle this, or he knows Liz is wrong but doesn't want to tell her why she is wrong.  All just my opinion of course.

The father question - Red seems pretty convinced that Kirk is not Liz's father.  But - if you think about it -  how can he really know this for sure?  Even if Katarina confided in Red as to who the father was, that's not foolproof.  So either there is something "complicated" about Liz's history, and Red knows the facts and/or was involved in it or ----  the obvious - that Red is her father.  But even that is not foolproof.  LOL

Red/Dembe/Brimley/Kaplan - yeah I think something major on that front is brewing.  We don't know the history between Kate and Dembe, which might be significant.  Why else would Dembe feel how he feels when he has not gone there before with others?  Does this lead to Dembe going back to the "scene of the crime".  But as someone else I think said, from that scene its more or less confirmed that Red shot to kill Kaplan - he tells Liz something like Dembe wants salvation for something where salvation can't be had....

All just food for thought on a foggy misty miserable afternoon here!

Last edited by lara1 (10/21/2016 1:03 pm)

Tatiana wrote:

Except it's not a diamond earring, its a bug!

I think you're right! What if she works for Panabaker, though? That lady knows a little too much, as well.

Tuxie400 wrote:

......

Is Red suffering from depression?  For these last three episodes, it's seemed to me like Spader is just phoning in those anecdotal stories. There's none of the familiar spirited enthusiasm when he tells them. Then I decided it's an acting choice on Spader's part. He is playing Red as suffering from depression. And why wouldn't he be depressed? He's still feeling betrayed and bereft from having two of the people he cares most about betray him. Also he must feel enormous guilt over  the baby's kidnapping. And when has any rival bested him so many times?  All of that could certainly cause depression.

 

Tuxie400 - that's an interesting observation on Red.  I didn't really pick that up but that is why its so great to have so many different postings and points on view and observations on here.  I like your idea -I will definitely have a look at that when I re-watch over the weekend.  I do think that Red is more "Red" than he was during the last few episodes of Season 3 and even the beginning of Season 4, but I like your observation because a lot must be weighing on his mind - besides the betrayal, his conflicted decision on Kaplan, Kirk besting him, Agnes in peril, now questions and maybe worries about Liz and Dembe as well.  Its like he is fighting a war on all fronts.    And is it a symptom of something larger going on, possibly with his mental state or overall health, as some of us discussed over the summer.  Or possibly some bigger problem/issue with Kirk or otherwise that Red knows about but we the audience don't, at least not yet.

Hey Honey West, yes you remember correctly there were a couple of rolling carts with the Reddington info in the pilot!  I always took them to be the 20+years of leads (or rather non-leads!) of the FBI and whoever else trying to find him, rather than concrete data on him, but it could be anything I guess.   

I really like the idea of Kirk as the Russian Reddington.  The only difference I can see is that Red was/is an internationally wanted fugitive so he had to be completely underground for all of those years.  Whereas Kirk fell out of political favor with the Kremlin and kept a low profile but was able to establish and grow "legitimate" and public energy companies globally, including in the U.S. which I don't think he'd be able to do if he were a known and wanted criminal (which he now is!).  Whereas Red instead went underground and developed a hugely profitably criminal empire.  But then that's just another way that the two are kind of like the mirror images of each other!    so - is Red really the non criminal and Kirk the criminal (originally).  And will both come full circle - so Kirk is now a criminal and wanted fugitive, and will Red ultimately revolve back to his (maybe) origin as non-criminal.  The 2 situations aren't entirely the same, but food for thought!

 

Last edited by lara1 (10/21/2016 6:32 pm)

Church stained glass window - I was wondering about this.  The window appears near the start of the episode (where Brimley comes in and Red is playing the organ) and its in the very last scene, above Red as he is eating and Liz confronts him with the DNA report.  Does anyone recognize the scene portrayed in the window?  there is a cross and 2 large angels featured prominently, along with what appears to be a male figure holding a child and various other figures.  Its not really a resurrection scene and I don't know what it is.  Now it may be the only such window in the church but I'm still wondering about it as they open and close the episode with it and there are 2 long close up shots of it.  Especially after realizing that "Kirk" means 'church".

For those who are interested, I attach a link to a page of the church website which has a picture of the sanctuary where the main church scenes were filmed, where you can also see the window.  The church is actually not that far from where I am based in NYC, I heard that they filmed a scene there (but I was not around at the time).  I believe that the church is currently undergoing restoration as it is in the scenes.  Just a bit of local detail I thought might be interesting!  (I could not find any info on the window itself on the website).  it looks like one other room they used is in the pictures too

http://www.westparkpresbyterian.org/room-pricing/pictures/
 

Last edited by lara1 (10/21/2016 11:09 pm)

Tatiana and lara1 - I agree that the stained glass image is a "Let the little children come to me" scene. It fits in with the staging area that Red said had been used for saving Jewish children during World War II. Very cool imagery to go with the "saving Agnes theme." I really appreciate the artistic and thematic tie-ins.

Wow! That's neat that you know that church. Thanks for sharing that tidbit. I haven't re-watched the episode yet, but I'll make sure to watch for that.

Iowa Watcher -

Is this your 'After Sephora' avatar? Very nice....
(Old men notice such things.)

I did some research on Ahab today and discovered something interesting.  I saw an episode of the Xfiles the other night and that episode happened to have several key themes in common with the BL, and Scully and Mulder made a reference to Ahab and Starbuck and I remembered Red saying in the pilot episode for the series that he is "Ahab".  .  

I'm familiar with Ahab/Moby Dick - and Red' s story as we progress the season is looking more and more like Ahab's obsession with and fanatical pursuit of Moby Dick, but I didn't recall looking up the actual name.  well.....

Ahab means literally "brother of the father".   !  wow.  Of course this plays into one of my theories, that Red took over the identity of his brother, but even without that, its really interesting.  Although would they really give us the answer in the pilot.....but then again how many were digging into that "mystery" when they first watched.....LOL

Did a re-watch today of Episode 4.  Picked up lots of symbols.  will post tomorrow.

Iowa Watcher # 95 - glad you enjoyed the church info.  And love your avatar!