The Blacklist Refugees » The Blacklist is part of a Chess Game Red is Playing

lara1 · 3/13/2017 5:13 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:

Tatiana I love that one with the reflection in the water. Also this one where the board is reflected in his sunglasses. In the main shot, there's a stone mermaid in back of him. The mermaid is also a fairy chess piece.

Tuxie400 and Tatiana - Loved both of these too! And my favotite image ( other than the piano) - the mirror!

Tuxie400 · 3/13/2017 5:19 pm

Lara - I think Christmas is in the story not because of Chess, but because of Alice in Wonderland. Author Lewis Carroll, real name Charles Dodgson, gave the book to Alice Liddell (the model for Alice) as a Christmas present. I just read that today. By the way, Alice Liddell's married name was Hargreaves. In the preface of the book, the author refers to Alice's older sister, Lorina, 13, as Prima. Alice, 11, was called Secunda (second) and Tillie was called Tertia.

I think Red is likely the King on his board. Many of the other Blacklisters could be traditional pieces: pawn, rooks, bishops, knights, etc. I don't think they started out with fairy chess idea - just chess as it related to Through the Looking Glass.

I read some disturbing things about Charles Dodgson and the Liddell girls today that made me very sad and sick. I hope to goodness this is not the Red and Liz connection. It would be far more objectionable than if Red were Katarina.

lara1 · 3/13/2017 5:28 pm

Tuxie400 # 42. I think you are right about traditional chess as there were strong clues to that very early on. Maybe the fairy chess pieces symbolize secondary moves and characters, pieces to the overall l story and strategy rather than key pieces I wondered about st nick as you mentioned a st george piece, and those two are the two icons in the flat

Very interesting info on the three sisters and especially that alice was called segunda. Together with the flora Segunda book it has got me back thinking again that Liz is the second daughter, or second "Elizabeth" - whatever that may mean!

Last edited by lara1 (3/13/2017 5:30 pm)

Tuxie400 · 3/13/2017 6:59 pm

lara1 - I didn't mention a St.George piece. There are dragon pieces though. Oh, now I see Colleen and I were posting at the same time. She listed dragon and was thinking about St. George.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (3/13/2017 7:10 pm)

Tatiana · 3/13/2017 9:46 pm

There are different styles of chess sets. Lewis Carroll's illustrations depict what's called a St. George set which was commonly in use until the Staunton set which became used in the mid to late 1800s.

Last edited by Tatiana (3/13/2017 11:05 pm)

Tuxie400 · 3/13/2017 10:59 pm

I was just rewatching Cape May and remembered there is a fairy chess piece called the Taxi! So there's another one for Season 3.

There's lots of chess board imagery in Cape May:
Beamed ceiling forms squares
Checked curtains
Green and white checked chair
Black and white tile walls in the kitchen
Square ceiling tiles in kitchen
Guy in the red plaid shirt
lattice work roof in the gazebo

Last edited by Tuxie400 (3/13/2017 11:49 pm)

lara1 · 3/13/2017 11:32 pm

Tuxie400 #44 and Tatiana #45 - St. George - I read a bunch of posts too quickly I think, on the bus out of town today.
LOL. But it is interesting that there is a dragon piece; and that Lewis Carroll's illustrations portray a St. George chess set....hmmm. So now I'm wondering whether that St. George icon in the flat is pointing us to chess, or whether its pointing us to the various symbols surrounding St. George (princess, water etc), as many of us first thought.

Speaking of the flat - and just getting back to the Cheshire Cat - I can't find which thread that conversation is in - but I noted that in the book, Alice first meets the cat in the kitchen of the house of the Duchess. And in the series, Liz first meets the cat on the kitchen ledge in the flat. So is this another pointer that the owner of the flat is female - I think at least some of us, including me, speculated that the flat may have belonged to Katarina. This reference to the Duchess' kitchen is pointing me more in that direction.

And lastly - I read tonight that Alice's Adventures in Wonder Land was originally titled Alice's Adventures Underground (!) which makes sense given all of the references we have to people being under ground, and the ground/earth in general.

Last edited by lara1 (3/13/2017 11:33 pm)

Tuxie400 · 3/13/2017 11:55 pm

You know, even though I've repeatedly said I thought the references to royalty were because of chess, I think Red will end up having that Russian connection. I always thought the flat was Katarina's, but I've come across something today while researching that makes me think otherwise. I'm not ready to talk about this discovery just yet But I do think Russian ancestry will bear out, and there likely will be a connection to the Tsar. I'm uncomfortable with this connection I've made. Sometimes we're not prepared for what we find down these rabbit holes.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (3/13/2017 11:57 pm)

lara1 · 3/14/2017 12:00 am

Tuxie400 #48 - it could be both. That there is a royalty angle to the story - given all of the Russian clues that hit us in nearly every episode - the red and white themes throughout - even Rostov was a name associated with royalty and the province of Rostov - and maybe the chess is part of that and how it is playing out, it is all connected. And then there are the playing cards - King of red Diamonds, right? and the connection to the books.

I've long thought Red was Russian - it is more of a gut feeling though - there are clues, but nothing that really is obvious in a "hit you over the head" kind of way. His name and nicknames others give him, for example. I did a post back on the old site with my reasons, but I can't find it....

Last edited by lara1 (3/14/2017 12:04 am)

Honey West · 3/14/2017 12:08 am

I have wondered if Red was really Russian. Maybe not A Russian, but has Russian ancestry. Either that or he spent some childhood years there. One of my earliest theories was that his father was some sort of diplomat who was posted to St Petersburg. Like I said, an EARLY theory.

So, is Red the King of his chessboard or is he the player moving the pieces but is not part of them?

And we know the Cheshire Cat is Mr. Cattington.

lara1 · 3/14/2017 12:13 am

HW - that is exactly what I was thinking when I read a bunch of posts in this thread earlier today. Is Red just the grand chess master, the maker of the moves and strategist, or is he a chess piece and will be the last one left standing? i.e. are the chess references literal (well, literal in a way) or symbolic?

Honey West · 3/14/2017 12:21 am

lara1, I was thinking that maybe these chess, Alice, etc. things are maybe just a blueprint for the show, part of it's "bible". But you never know, it could be a guide or it could be the main plot thread.

Honey West · 3/14/2017 12:27 am

Well, let's try these emoticons for awhile. I see there's a clock, a cat...a martini!

lara1 · 3/14/2017 12:32 am

Thanks HW.

and with that I am off to sleep. We are having a major blizzard here very shortly. They have declared a state of emergency and even cancelled school for tomorrow two days out (which is unusual).

Perhaps I will have more inspiration as I shovel snow tomorrow.! LOL.

Tatiana · 3/14/2017 8:50 am

Tuxie - I'd be very very interested in learning about what has tipped you off to thinking Raymond is Russian.
I have to say, I've never believed Red grew up in Michigan. When he says everything about me is a lie, I have to believe it. And frankly, I've often thought he must be Russian or grown up in Russia. One of the books in his quirky little apartment is "Checkov" as in Anton Chekov the writer and it's in Russian. It's among all the American Architecture and Art of the Impressionists books. For some reason when I figured that out it brought back the idea of Red's Russian involvement again.

I'm prepared for a weird, uncomfortable reveal. The combination of Jon Bokenkamp saying he has to convince the networks to go with it and James Spader makes me think there are few limits.

Anyway, I've really been enjoying looking at screenshots of the most detailed and, I think, important scenes. Certainly the apartment holds lots of clues.

Lara - good luck with the weather. We got the snow yesterday. This morning on the news they said it was miserable in NYC because in addition to the snow, there was spitting sleet and high winds. Yuck. I can't imagine walking downtown in those conditions. Sounds like everyone is working from home!

Tuxie400 · 3/14/2017 8:51 am

lara1 - Stay safe in your blizzard! We had unexpected snow here over the weekend.

Tatiana · 3/14/2017 9:06 am

lara1 wrote:
Speaking of the flat - and just getting back to the Cheshire Cat - I can't find which thread that conversation is in - but I noted that in the book, Alice first meets the cat in the kitchen of the house of the Duchess. And in the series, Liz first meets the cat on the kitchen ledge in the flat. So is this another pointer that the owner of the flat is female - I think at least some of us, including me, speculated that the flat may have belonged to Katarina. This reference to the Duchess' kitchen is pointing me more in that direction.

I distinctly remember that kitchen, Lara, because I was struck with envy at the gorgeous brass pots hanging from the ceiling!!! lol

Tatiana · 3/14/2017 10:07 am

Checkerboard AND a clock showed up on my Tumbl feed :-D

https://68.media.tumblr.com/4057dabfc6f1db3ddb99efa0d852bf51/tumblr_oms7afxdpT1qc697wo9_540.png

lara1 · 3/14/2017 1:49 pm

Tatiana and Tuxie400 - thanks for your kind thoughts! Roll on, Spring! LOL

I'm just dropping in for a quick comment, back later - but Tuxie400, the Russian thing got me thinking again last night. so much has happened since I wrote my comments, I think it was at the end of the summer, after my binge watch, on the Red Russian "clues" I may have picked up in my re-watch, and with the change in emphasis in this season, that kind of got pushed to the background.

But - and I may have written this on the Christmas/St. Nick thread here, one of my biggest beliefs is the connection between Red and St Nick - the clues are everywhere, in various guises, even with "Nick's Pizza" calling. Sounds silly, but I think its that pervasive.

So - I got to thinking this again last night - and have connected, at least in my mind, St. Nick/Red/ and the last Tsar - Nicholas. Again, I may have written this on the Christmas/St. Nick thread, or my "Red is Russian" thread on the old site. But I'm going to look into this some more when I have a bit of time. What if the Christmas/St. Nick stuff is pointing to that?

Just an idea - and the ghost of Christmas past - Red - the last tsar, Nicholas? (Not that Red is the last tsar, but there is a connection...)

Last edited by lara1 (3/14/2017 1:51 pm)

Tatiana · 3/14/2017 2:01 pm

Tuxie - In watching some episodes again, it is clear there are certain themes or 'symbols' which show up time and again: clocks; chess/checkered patterns/chess pieces/chess plays; St. Nicholas/Nick/Christmas; Russia; royalty; prima ballerina/ballet/dance.

Ordinarily I am very skeptical of this, but almost all episodes are set in gray, black, white, forms, etc. more or less monochromatic with very little color unless it is natural. Think of the all white apartment which Red uses to draw out his new cleaners. Or think of the Post Office with its battleship grey. When a color or prop appears that is outside of that basic background, it is meant to provide some meaning.

Getting back to your point, though Lara, we had often wondered if Liz was important because she was the descendant of Nicholas and Alexandria but we'd dropped the idea for several reasons. I don't think anyone in blogsphere/discussion boards had brought up that it was Red who was perhaps a descendant of Czar Nicholas. Very interesting.

I would think then if he were part of Imperial Russia, then he would be counter to Katarina? Lots of interesting implications.