HW you always bring me back to reality. Yes, Red's shudder when the doctor tells him he's dying. And without LouLou he would have surely died.

And I chuckled remembering how Aram said he taped Dr. Who :-D  Benevolent actions of course. It would be incredibly disappointing if they used Aram as the guy who tried to kill Red since it is so inconsistent with his character.

 

Tuxie400 - I haven't heard of the oranges symbolism thing.  But there must be something to it.  It did strike me as a bit odd the way those oranges had fallen to the floor, except I thought that's where Red first collapsed and Dembe realized he had to get him to the ICU.  But the oranges angle is interesting.

Last edited by lara1 (3/05/2017 8:07 pm)

lara1 - Aram's cat picture with the Chinese takeout was in the Isabella Stone episode.

Tatiana - I would say the spilled oranges are an homage to The Godfather.

"No, Red's reaction to being poisoned goes along with Eisendrath's comment about it not being about whether Red lives or dies, but what happens while he thinks he is dying. He is definitely changing. It's a slow progress, but the first thing is his new realization that he does care if he lives or dies. Liz and Agnes are the catalyst for this change. The big question now becomes is it too little too late? And how will it affect his thinking and decision-making going forward? Will it turn out to actually put them all in greater danger or will it be the key to saving them all?"

Superbly stated, Honey West.

Regarding film, I was fortunate that my own mother studied graduate level film and then taught (her undergraduate work was in literature) so we often had long, lively conversations about current film or tv. I would have to think that in her heyday she would have loved The Blacklist <3 and I would have loved talking with her about it.

It seems that "it not being about whether he lives or dies" is kind of a modus operandi for TBL? They have told us, it isn't the nature of Elizabeth and Raymond's relationship in the past that matters, so much as how it develops in the present; it isn't about whether he lives or dies, it's how he's evolved from being ruthlessly careless to forming a fear of death because of ... life and love. 

I also think of the episode when he and Liz are hiding out in a theatre, he gets up from the 'sitting room' to retire for the night, opens the door, and yet we see that the ceiling is open and the wall a mere 'prop' if you will. TPBL were reminding us at that time that there is still a reality present, a consciousness of the relationship between audience and performer/producer/production, etc. which is dynamic and alive. And it reminds me, in any event, that there is a consciousness or perhaps a coming to consciousness of the characters to who they are and who they are to become. I think particularly of Red who clearly experienced a personally catastrophic event in his life of which he has minimal knowledge and how that has made him 'like the farmer who loses everything' or the 'hideous fish'. And Elizabeth who is not conscious of a personal tragedy, who is raised by a loving, albeit absent, father, but whose past is pocked with amnesia and replaced with false memories. How will coming to a consciousness change her? 

 

Cool, Tatiana and Tuxie400.
I think you have put it quite nicely, Tatiana. That is what it's all about. Relationships, present and future. The past "doesn't matter". It has shaped who they are and were at the beginning, but exactly what[ happened "doesn't matter". It's about going forward. That's what Red meant when he told Kirk "it doesn't matter" whether or not he was Liz's father. The past is the past, choices cannot be un-made.

Lots of inspired thoughts, Honey West, Tatiana, and Tuxie400.

The past is the past, choices cannot be un-made, that reminds me of the "some things can't be forgiven" arc of episode 3.  Where Liz says, and then Red agrees, that forgiveness can't change the past, but it can change the future.  I forgot exactly the person Red said that to, but I wonder if that will play into the Kaplan betrayal story, and the choices made by both Kaplan and by Red.

Tatiana #284 - sorry about that!  I was flipping back and forth between topics.

On the oranges - although I did not pick up on any symbolism with the oranges, that scene did remind me of a medieval painting (still life), maybe in the style of Vermeer, the way the oranges were arranged, carefully with the papers and the drape of the tablecloth.  

It reminds me of a painting we had all discussed back on BSG, it wasn't Vermeer but an artist whose style was similar.  I am trying to remember that, because we had figured out possible symbolism in the painting, I believe it was around double identity, or two names/aliases, having to do with both the subject matter of the painiting and the history of it.  So I wonder whether its relating back to that in any way.  

I just thought it was very artistic the way that scene was set up, rather than the random chaos you would have if it were say, the result of a struggle.

lara1 wrote:

Tatiana #284 - sorry about that!  I was flipping back and forth between topics.

On the oranges - although I did not pick up on any symbolism with the oranges, that scene did remind me of a medieval painting (still life), maybe in the style of Vermeer, the way the oranges were arranged, carefully with the papers and the drape of the tablecloth.  

It reminds me of a painting we had all discussed back on BSG, it wasn't Vermeer but an artist whose style was similar.  I am trying to remember that, because we had figured out possible symbolism in the painting, I believe it was around double identity, or two names/aliases, having to do with both the subject matter of the painiting and the history of it.  So I wonder whether its relating back to that in any way.  

I just thought it was very artistic the way that scene was set up, rather than the random chaos you would have if it were say, the result of a struggle.

Agreed. It very much was a work of art.

Initially I thought of the painting over the fireplace in Red's flat, but that one is "Woman Giving Money to a Servant Girl" by Pietr de Hooch and there are no oranges ;-).

I have a lot of thoughts about art, literature, collections in the flat that I'm mulling about. 
If you think of which painting or episode it was, let me know. There's SO much to look at.
 

Tuxie400 #296 - thanks for that!  I remember now.  So another betrayal.  hmmm

Honey West wrote:

Tatiana wrote:

Red's flat: thanks all for confirming the flat similarities. Aren't we lucky that Honey West has direct experience in filming to add her wisdom to our conversation? :-)

For some reason I think the more recent scenes in the apartment were shot with long shadows for effect. Did you see the shadows of the blinds across the walls? It had a more ominous feel to it, naturally.

"Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid" Ha! That's the first thing I thought of when you all brought it up. It was an amazing film, not so much for plot but for concept/production. It was all in black and white to imitate the Film Noir genre. They interwove original film of the 30's/40's into the 1982 movie with Steve Martin and Carl Reiner. The costume designer, Elizabeth Head, having designed so many of the costumes of the time, did so for the '82 production. She was a brilliant designer. Actually, she died prior to the opening of the film.

Once again, more irrelevant trivia from me, but interesting nonetheless ;-) 
I had once dreamed of being a costume designer!

 
Hey, we are a good group with people who bring a lot of special interests/talents to the table! I think that's why I gravitated towards this group when I first discovered that TBL discussion groups actually existed. to be honest, I was never an official continuity person but I helped. At that time, pre-digital photography, we used Polaroids for reference. And in makeup it was important to have the same things look the same day to day. You can't have a cut or bruise suddenly jump half an inch in any direction. People notice! That said, I find that TBL production staff do an awesome job with their continuity! And I am picky! Plus I have always been a very visual person, those "spot the differences" puzzles have always been easy, and I am a very good proofreader. Except when I do typos, am in a hurry, or don't care right then. LOL!

The apartment is interesting. The only things changed were that maybe a photo was moved, which would be normal for someone looking at them and picking them up, the record albums, the correspondence and the plants had grown a bit. But looked like the same types of plants, and they are all healthy, Cattington is well taken-care-of, the desk is used. So someone is there often enough to take care of these things. This time I didn't see the cracked plaster on the wall or the crooked frame near the front door, which in Caul made me think the place was more of a time capsule. The place is clean and gets used. By Red or another of his "staff" don't know. The contents are old, but Red said he likes old stuff. Yet we know there is a spy cam, and a new flip phone ready to go in the drawer. The Fulcrum reader parts were stored there after retrieval, which was kind of interesting. Why not somewhere less personal? Anyway, I could go on, but you can see I am still trying to solve the puzzle of the flat with all of its clues that I am sure are there for a reason.

Except for Liz's scar ...what happened to that?!