The Blacklist Refugees » Episode 4.15, "The Apothecary" Discussion

Honey West · 3/04/2017 1:55 pm

Tatiana wrote:
Red's flat: thanks all for confirming the flat similarities. Aren't we lucky that Honey West has direct experience in filming to add her wisdom to our conversation? :-)

For some reason I think the more recent scenes in the apartment were shot with long shadows for effect. Did you see the shadows of the blinds across the walls? It had a more ominous feel to it, naturally.

"Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid" Ha! That's the first thing I thought of when you all brought it up. It was an amazing film, not so much for plot but for concept/production. It was all in black and white to imitate the Film Noir genre. They interwove original film of the 30's/40's into the 1982 movie with Steve Martin and Carl Reiner. The costume designer, Elizabeth Head, having designed so many of the costumes of the time, did so for the '82 production. She was a brilliant designer. Actually, she died prior to the opening of the film.

Once again, more irrelevant trivia from me, but interesting nonetheless ;-)
I had once dreamed of being a costume designer!

Hey, we are a good group with people who bring a lot of special interests/talents to the table! I think that's why I gravitated towards this group when I first discovered that TBL discussion groups actually existed. to be honest, I was never an official continuity person but I helped. At that time, pre-digital photography, we used Polaroids for reference. And in makeup it was important to have the same things look the same day to day. You can't have a cut or bruise suddenly jump half an inch in any direction. People notice! That said, I find that TBL production staff do an awesome job with their continuity! And I am picky! Plus I have always been a very visual person, those "spot the differences" puzzles have always been easy, and I am a very good proofreader. Except when I do typos, am in a hurry, or don't care right then. LOL!

The apartment is interesting. The only things changed were that maybe a photo was moved, which would be normal for someone looking at them and picking them up, the record albums, the correspondence and the plants had grown a bit. But looked like the same types of plants, and they are all healthy, Cattington is well taken-care-of, the desk is used. So someone is there often enough to take care of these things. This time I didn't see the cracked plaster on the wall or the crooked frame near the front door, which in Caul made me think the place was more of a time capsule. The place is clean and gets used. By Red or another of his "staff" don't know. The contents are old, but Red said he likes old stuff. Yet we know there is a spy cam, and a new flip phone ready to go in the drawer. The Fulcrum reader parts were stored there after retrieval, which was kind of interesting. Why not somewhere less personal? Anyway, I could go on, but you can see I am still trying to solve the puzzle of the flat with all of its clues that I am sure are there for a reason.

Tatiana · 3/04/2017 7:42 pm

Minor note which one of you probably already posted.

The apothecary designs poisons specific to an individuals unique medical/physical profile.
Yet Liz, in an effort to find the antidote, discovers that there is absolutely nothing, a blank slate, on Reddington's medical file.
She even says so to Cooper, I believe.
How is that even possible?
When Reddington surrendered in the pilot Cooper asks Ressler for verification that it's 'him'. 'Yes, we crossed him, tatoos, fingerprints.... ' or something to that effect.
Was his medical profile erased or did they have the wrong one, or is Ressler in on some kind of deep operative effort?
The end of this episode, Raymond says, only two people had access to that scotch, me and ... So it still could be that Raymond did it to himself.

Tatiana · 3/04/2017 7:47 pm

Anyway, I could go on, but you can see I am still trying to solve the puzzle of the flat with all of its clues that I am sure are there for a reason.

Honey West, it reminds me of the Highlights scene with Dembe!!! We are mad, crazy puzzlers in our family!

lara1 · 3/04/2017 8:47 pm

Honey West - thanks for checking on the flat. You know I was thinking after I wrote my post, I think it looked different because the camera angle was different - more straight on rather than at an angle, and the lighting was different too (I think someone else mentioned this). I did not know that you have hands on filming experience. Lucky you! I've always wanted to be involved on actual sets.....

lara1 · 3/04/2017 8:51 pm

Tatiana wrote:
Minor note which one of you probably already posted.

The apothecary designs poisons specific to an individuals unique medical/physical profile.
Yet Liz, in an effort to find the antidote, discovers that there is absolutely nothing, a blank slate, on Reddington's medical file.
She even says so to Cooper, I believe.
How is that even possible?
When Reddington surrendered in the pilot Cooper asks Ressler for verification that it's 'him'. 'Yes, we crossed him, tatoos, fingerprints.... ' or something to that effect.
Was his medical profile erased or did they have the wrong one, or is Ressler in on some kind of deep operative effort?
The end of this episode, Raymond says, only two people had access to that scotch, me and ... So it still could be that Raymond did it to himself.

Thank you Tatiana! I totally missed that. Your mention of "blank slate" reminded me of Tom talking to Agnes' doctor and saying that both he and Liz were blank slates....that is really interesting.

Yes there are fingerprints in Red's file and they did confirm the fingerprints when he surrendered (but oddly they never did this for Devry, right?).

Interesting you mention Ressler and whether he could be some sort of operative. I've always thought there is more to him than meets the eye as far as his contact with Reddington goes....but that is more of a gut feeling than backed up by anything, other than Anslo Garrick wondering how the heck Ressler could not have got Red in Brussels when Garrick gave him very specific information. And many other attempts by Ressler came to nothing. Pointing to Red's cleverness or deliberate misses? hmmm

Last edited by lara1 (3/04/2017 8:53 pm)

Tuxie400 · 3/04/2017 9:32 pm

Tatiana - I missed that about the blank slate on Reddington's medical records. But that doesn't surprise me much.

Honey West · 3/04/2017 10:23 pm

Tatiana wrote:
Minor note which one of you probably already posted.

The apothecary designs poisons specific to an individuals unique medical/physical profile.
Yet Liz, in an effort to find the antidote, discovers that there is absolutely nothing, a blank slate, on Reddington's medical file.
She even says so to Cooper, I believe.
How is that even possible?
When Reddington surrendered in the pilot Cooper asks Ressler for verification that it's 'him'. 'Yes, we crossed him, tatoos, fingerprints.... ' or something to that effect.
Was his medical profile erased or did they have the wrong one, or is Ressler in on some kind of deep operative effort?
The end of this episode, Raymond says, only two people had access to that scotch, me and ... So it still could be that Raymond did it to himself.

But in Anslo Garrick 2 they confirm that Red had been there because tests confirmed it was his blood. So they have something on him.

Tuxie400 · 3/05/2017 4:12 pm

Tatiana wrote:
Minor note which one of you probably already posted.

The apothecary designs poisons specific to an individuals unique medical/physical profile.
Yet Liz, in an effort to find the antidote, discovers that there is absolutely nothing, a blank slate, on Reddington's medical file.
She even says so to Cooper, I believe.
How is that even possible?

Tatiana - Liz was talking about the Apothecary not having Red's medical records. She noted that he had extensive records for Helen Dahle and others he'd provided poison for. I think the FBI has little more than his blood type on file.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (3/05/2017 5:11 pm)

Tatiana · 3/05/2017 4:25 pm

OH Tuxie, thank you for that clarification. That's a pretty big difference that it wasn't the FBI she was talking about but rather the Apothecary.
Wow, that makes it even stranger, and harder to deduct: Who DUNNIT?
So, how could the Apothecary design a unique poison for Reddington without Reddington's medical information? That's the Apothecary's MO.
Or does that point to something completely different?
Did the WHO DUNNIT get directions on how to make a poison without Red's medical info?
If that's the case, it would be someone who knows first hand all of Red's health information AND someone who would know what poison would work the best. So the WHODUNNIT would be a very very clever and highly and intimately informed person.

This is really making me think it was Red who ordered the poison.

I say this, not with a lot of confidence, but remember both Kate and Dembe have said Red has become more and more dangerous.

just my musings.

Honey West · 3/05/2017 5:07 pm

Tatiana wrote:
OH Tuxie, thank you for that clarification. That's a pretty big difference that it wasn't the FBI she was talking about but rather the Apothecary.
Wow, that makes it even stranger, and harder to deduct: Who DUNNIT?
So, how could the Apothecary design a unique poison for Reddington without Reddington's medical information? That's the Apothecary's MO.
Or does that point to something completely different?
Did the WHO DUNNIT get directions on how to make a poison without Red's medical info?
If that's the case, it would be someone who knows first hand all of Red's health information AND someone who would know what poison would work the best. So the WHODUNNIT would be a very very clever and highly and intimately informed person.

This is really making me think it was Red who ordered the poison.

I say this, not with a lot of confidence, but remember both Kate and Dembe have said Red has become more and more dangerous.

just my musings.

Hmmmm, very interesting, Tatiana. Red was one of my first suspects, but his reactions to dying sure don't look that way. At the beginning we have Dembe asking what if something goes wrong, but that could be so many things! Then again, we really don't know HOW Red was planning to expose the traitor at that dinner, do we? But he couldn't do it unless they were all present and Marvin's little vaykay to Tahiti threw a wrench into the works. So was Red planning to ask them questions and trip up whoever did it? Or was he going to tell them parables until they couldn't take it any more and crack?

Tuxie400 · 3/05/2017 5:22 pm

Well guys I'm back to the first post on the Who Dunnit Thread - Kiss My Freckle's Aram Theory. While I don't think Aram would poison Red, I do think that Aram has Cooper's office bugged. His comments to Samar in Lippet Seafood Co. about traitor or moron echo what Panabaker called Ressler in Esteban, and it's just too coincidental that he has a picture on his computer of a cat with spilled Chinese takeout on it's head right after Red tells Cooper he can't just order up super criminals like Chinese takeout. But I think that's just Aram being nosy. (I sincerely hope that's just Aram being nosy.)

I'm starting to think maybe Red did poison himself to make himself look weak and see if the sharks would come for his blood. Maybe that's what Dembe thought was dangerous. Perhaps Red didn't think he would have such a profound case of amnesia?

I still think the attacks would be the work of a computer genius like Elise/Janet, either working on her own or with a group.

Honey West · 3/05/2017 5:37 pm

Tuxie400, don't forget that Aram knew that Cooper was sleeping in his office after the blow-up with Charlene.

Tatiana · 3/05/2017 5:43 pm

"Or was he going to tell them parables until they couldn't take it any more and crack? "
Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!

Oh what a tangled web we weave!

I'm sitting with the Red poisoned himself theory for the time being to feel it out a bit more. There's all sorts of reasons why it could be him. Yes, he's felt death all around him and for once he's afraid of it. Perhaps he's using a osteopathic type of approach: make it 'happen' so that it makes the body fight against it. I.e. create a highly believable 'poisoning' and see how Red's cronies react in order to draw out the true perpetrator. Marvin Gerard did not show up so Red didn't really have a 'scientific' experience of the evidence.
I have about a 30% confidence Red was behind the poisoning.

Despite the fact that the kitty video with take out on his head was so cute and so Aram, I find it a bit puzzling too. It wasn't until Miss Elise popped on the PO Planet that Aram started some virtual hanky panky. He's always been on the up and up at work, keep work and play separate. So the pic and the "can't order them up like Chinese take out" leaves a question mark in my mind.

lara1 · 3/05/2017 6:34 pm

So many theories!

I've toyed with the idea of Red doing this to himself, but I think that if he has, he doesn't realize it. Some thoughts:

- I think the look on his face at the end, he seems truly shocked/in disbelief, Marivn even says to him, are you OK Raymond - and Marvin usually calls him "Red"
- to me, Red seems genuinely frightened by what was happening. unless, of course, he planned it but didn't count on the amnesia kicking in

but it could be he has done this to himself - but doesn't remember that either. Or, his "other self" - speculate as to split personality or other identity coming to the surface - has done this, hence "our" Red has no knowledge of having done it

For much of the episode, before we figured out what had happened - i.e. the events of the prior night - there was an eerie sense of a Red twin or other duplicate having done these things. Red still doesn't remember this for himself, only what others have told him. So, I think if Red had done this to himself, he either doesn't remember that was the plan, or has no knowledge of it because another "self" had done it.

Well those are my thoughts for now.

Last edited by lara1 (3/05/2017 7:11 pm)

lara1 · 3/05/2017 6:54 pm

interesting points about the cat and the Chinese take out box. I still have a hard time believing Aram was involved unless its a 180 for the character (which is possible, LOL!).

Was that picture in The Architect or in The Apothecary, I can't recall. Maybe its a clue that someone other than Dembe/Red was in the flat, or again pointing to the cat as the source of the allergen. Its interesting that the Apothecary didn't have Red's medical history. If it was based on the cat allergy, maybe he didn't need it. Or, another thing to point to Red having ordered the poison himself, that some have mentioned.

lara1 · 3/05/2017 6:56 pm

You know I just had a thought. Like "Murder on The Orient Express" suppose it was all of them at the dinner who did it? LOL, that scene also reminded me of Christie's other story "And Then There were None", where I think 10 people were gathered and they were being killed off one by one, and they tried to figure it out over dinner. there would be more similarities to that, if one by one they started being killed.....

Honey West · 3/05/2017 7:09 pm

Tatiana wrote:
"Or was he going to tell them parables until they couldn't take it any more and crack? "
Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!

Oh what a tangled web we weave!

I'm sitting with the Red poisoned himself theory for the time being to feel it out a bit more. There's all sorts of reasons why it could be him. Yes, he's felt death all around him and for once he's afraid of it. Perhaps he's using a osteopathic type of approach: make it 'happen' so that it makes the body fight against it. I.e. create a highly believable 'poisoning' and see how Red's cronies react in order to draw out the true perpetrator. Marvin Gerard did not show up so Red didn't really have a 'scientific' experience of the evidence.
I have about a 30% confidence Red was behind the poisoning.

Despite the fact that the kitty video with take out on his head was so cute and so Aram, I find it a bit puzzling too. It wasn't until Miss Elise popped on the PO Planet that Aram started some virtual hanky panky. He's always been on the up and up at work, keep work and play separate. So the pic and the "can't order them up like Chinese take out" leaves a question mark in my mind.

Don't forget the time he told Liz, somewhat conspiratorially, that he had downloaded the whole season four of Doctor Who onto the server. I suspect that wasn't exactly "company policy".

Honey West · 3/05/2017 7:12 pm

lara1 wrote:
So many theories!

I've toyed with the idea of Red doing this to himself, but I think that if he has, he doesn't realize it. Some thoughts:

- I think the look on his face at the end, he seems truly shocked/in disbelief, Marivn even says to him, are you OK Raymond - and Marvin usually calls him "Red"
- to me, Red seems genuinely frightened by what was happening. unless, of course, he planned it but didn't count on the amnesia kicking in

but it could be he has done this to himself - but doesn't remember that either. Or, he "other self" - speculate as to split personality or other identity coming to the surface - has done this, hence "our" Red has no knowledge of having done it

For much of the episode, before we figured out what had happened - i.e. the events of the prior night - there was an eerie sense of a Red twin or other duplicate having done these things. Red still doesn't remember this for himself, only what others have told him. So, I think if Red had done this to himself, he either doesn't remember that was the plan, or has no knowledge of it because another "self" had done it.

Well those are my thoughts for now.

He gives a pretty good shudder when the doctor tells him he is dying. And I think if he had planned this, he would have done a better job of building in safeguards, there was too much left to chance. If he hadn't heard LouLou banging around in the trunk, he wouldn't have had her to help him. And she did save his life.

lara1 · 3/05/2017 7:15 pm

interesting thoughts HW. Maybe we have been getting small glimpses of another side of Aram we don't know much about. Including his skill with a bazooka!

Tatiana · 3/05/2017 7:50 pm

I've been meaning to bring this up, but the spilled oranges in Marvin's fiancee's home... oranges in crime movies/tv mean death (a la Francis Ford Coppola's The Godfather). I never watched Mad Men but I thought I heard somewhere they used oranges for a 'fake death' symbolism. Anyone know about that?