The Blacklist Refugees » Who is trying to take down Red?

lara1 · 3/05/2017 1:16 pm

Honey west #60 - good point. Maybe it was the Cabal behind it all. And could it now be Laurel Hitchins as part of the current plot. We don't have any background on her do we.

I still like the idea of Jennifer/Elise at least being part of it.

Tuxie400 - I went over the scripts last night for Mako Tanida, Linus Creel, and parts of Monarch Douglas. I'm trying to find any scraps of clues as to Jennifer. We basically have around 3 sentences about her! LOL. Maybe there is something in Berlin or the other early Season 2 episodes. Or maybe Flora Segunda has more clues, but I couldn't see anything in the plot of that book other than what I've seen before. Nothing to link Jennifer to ballerina girl or to anything really.

I once had a very wild theory - wilder than usual, LOL!! - that Jennifer was Berlin's other daughter. And she bought into the Red killed Berlin's daughter story (so that would be Red killed her sister), and that is why she hates Red and she ran away as soon as she could, as Red would be "coming for her" (also). So in my wild wild theory she would still blame Red as she would not have been around to see the "truth" Red proved to Berlin. Well that would be a motive to go after Red.

But I could never tell one way or the other whether Berlin and Naomi knew each other previously. He just sneered at her, Mrs. Redd-ing-ton and Naomi's looks at him I couldn't to decipher. I always wondered how Lord Baltimore knew enough about Naomi - very specific information, both from the past and the present, in order to track her down. Who would know both of those? The Cabal could track her current movements but what about the past? And wouldn't that be the ultimate revenge for Berlin to get on Red.

Anyway I've gone off on a tangent. But I do think that Jennifer is a real possibility still.

Last edited by lara1 (3/05/2017 1:18 pm)

Tuxie400 · 3/05/2017 2:00 pm

I guess I'm one of the few people who has believed Bubble Girl, Ballerina Girl and Jennifer are all the same person I'm rethinking my Elise theory.

Elise was a mirror to Katarina in the fall episodes, much as Ressler was a mirror to Red in the Mako Tanida episode. She is a mirror as the spy girlfriend, the honey trap, the spy with many aliases. Why they connect her to giant bubbles and other symbols of girls we think are Red's daughters puzzles me. Maybe Honey West is right, and Bubble Girl is Liz (with dyed hair). So are they connecting the mirror of Katarina to the bubbles as Liz's unseen mother. ??? This is starting to make my head hurt.

Tatiana - I think Ressler is the mirror of Red as a man who suffered immeasurable grief, and suffered a drug addiction because of it.That's how I see them being connected. I also think before Red got tangled up in Katarina's web, he was probably very much the same sort of person Ressler is. But Red went to the dark side. I'm wondering if Ressler won't before this season is over.

Even if Elise doesn't turn out to be Jennifer, I think it's interesting that they are keeping her around.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (3/05/2017 2:05 pm)

Tuxie400 · 3/05/2017 2:08 pm

lara1 - You really should check out Tessa's Criminal Minds tumblr. She has thought for a long time that there were more people involvde in the Berlin attack. At one time, she thought it might be Katarina because Berlin went after Carla instead of Liz. Now she thinks someone else involved in Katarina's undercover activities may be targeting Red - another man who was led to believe he was Liz's father and who may have information that could harm him.

I don't think Berlin and Carla knew each other. That is a wild Jennifer Berlin theory. But with this show, who knows?

Last edited by Tuxie400 (3/06/2017 11:13 am)

Honey West · 3/05/2017 2:44 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
I guess I'm one of the few people who has believed Bubble Girl, Ballerina Girl and Jennifer are all the same person I'm rethinking my Elise theory.

Elise was a mirror to Katarina in the fall episodes, much as Ressler was a mirror to Red in the Mako Tanida episode. She is a mirror as the spy girlfriend, the honey trap, the spy with many aliases. Why they connect her to giant bubbles and other symbols of girls we think are Red's daughters puzzles me. Maybe Honey West is right, and Bubble Girl is Liz (with dyed hair). So are they connecting the mirror of Katarina to the bubbles as Liz's unseen mother. ??? This is starting to make my head hurt.

Tatiana - I think Ressler is the mirror of Red as a man who suffered immeasurable grief, and suffered a drug addiction because of it.That's how I see them being connected. I also think before Red got tangled up in Katarina's web, he was probably very much the same sort of person Ressler is. But Red went to the dark side. I'm wondering if Ressler won't before this season is over.

Even if Elise doesn't turn out to be Jennifer, I think it's interesting that they are keeping her around.

No, I've thought that , too, that they might be the same, until I spun bubble girl off to being Liz. Anyway, most of the kids in my family start off so blonde that our hair was nearly white, then as we got older our hair darkens. We never turn into brunettes, but mostly auburns and medium browns and dirty dishwater blondes. But there are some pretty dark haired cousins, so there ya go, just depends on what was in the gene pool.

I agree that Ressler is probably most like Red in a lot of ways. It's funny they made that go even down to the same somewhat rare blood type.

And I'm also sure we will eventually see Jennifer, if we haven't already.

Tatiana · 3/05/2017 3:34 pm

"In The Architect, there is a scene where Elise is talking with Aram, and there is a kind of light/halo coming over her shoulder, and its white and very blue. you can see the still photo if you google elise and Blacklist

At the very very end of Mako Tanida, when Red is watching the ballet, and the ballerina shifts back from the girl to the woman in present day, that strong blue light (actually from the theater spotlight) is shown on Red. The similarities are amazing.

So I think Emma somehow represents ballerina girl, and Elise bubble girl, but there is also some symbolism around Elise relating to the ballet performance (the name of the school, the spotlight etc)"

Lara: I wonder too about this, especially because there's another 'halo' 'bright sunlight' image that keeps coming to my mind: the photo of Katarina with Liz on the swing; and the sunlight around Kate's head just as Red shoots her. Very vivid.

Tuxie400 · 3/05/2017 4:08 pm

Honey West - I started out as blonde myself. But by the time I was 5 years old, I was well on my way to becoming a brunette..I guess because we see Liz as dark haired in the swing photo, I never thought she would be the blonde bubble girl - unless her hair had been dyed to disguise her. I suppose that could have happened when Red took her from Katarina. But if so, why was her hair back dark by fire night?

lara1 · 3/05/2017 7:08 pm

I think if Bubble Girl were Liz, her hair had to have been dyed, because in the swing photo, the photos at the summer palace, the photo Kirk carried, and in Liz's summer palace memory recall, she has dark straight hair with bangs, if I remember correctly. Also I think on the blue ray dvd, the cut scene from Cape May with Sam and little Liz walking on the beach showed her as a brunette.

If her hair was dyed to try to "disguise" her after the fire, then the scene with Sam on the beach would have had her with blond hair. I can't remember the photos that Red looked at on her birthday, but I thought those were brunette - I can't remember though.

It still makes no sense to me that Red remembered bubble girl at Takoma Park where he said he raised his family, something bad happened there that he blew it up to help him forget it, and the measurements on the wall only go to 3 (esp if bubble girl was older than 3). Then again, there is no answer! LOL

When Red watches the home movies, that scene is cut to right after he comes back from the hospital where he was visiting Liz, holding her hand as she recovered from the killer virus in The Front. He's shown wearing the same clothes, same shirt, like he viewed the home movie after coming back directly from the hospital. That made me think bubble girl might be Liz, but then again it could be Red's "lost" daughter - the virus event where Liz was almost lost made him want to watch the home movie of his own daughter again.

I am hoping that all the similarities with Emma and Elise to bubble and ballerina girl means we will be getting another clue soon. Or are the clues already there within those episodes? LOL

Tatiana · 3/05/2017 8:03 pm

I wouldn't get too caught up in eye or hair color. Now if the child were African American and we were seeing an Asian, that would be a pretty clear indication they were two different people.

The more I think about it, the young girls all were similar: caucasian, blond/brown hair, usually wavy or even a little curly.

lara1 · 3/06/2017 11:17 am

Tuxie400 #63 - thanks for the pointer on Tessa's site. Sounds interesting. I'm not sure if I've seen that one before. I tend to avoid individual blogs, not sure why, I think maybe because I like to try to figure out my own theories based on how I experience what's on screen and script. I do dip into general discussion sites fro time to time though - like Blacklist Exposed.

I'm the same with films - I see lots of films and never read reviews beforehand - if I read the plot summary and it seems like something I would like, I go for it. But it has led to some disappointments and fraught arguments with others! LOL But thanks, I appreciate the info! The theories sound interesting!

Tatiana · 3/06/2017 11:56 am

Lara: "I tend to avoid individual blogs, not sure why, I think maybe because I like to try to figure out my own theories based on how I experience what's on screen and script. I do dip into general discussion sites fro time to time though - like Blacklist Exposed.

Interesting, I'm the same way. My 'theory' is that I prefer a more 'scientific' method if you will of theories, i.e. let the clues lead you to a conclusion, don't let your conclusion dictate what clues you use. And I often find on individual sites a tendency toward theories which verge on fanfiction which I dislike.

Groups like this one provide multiple viewpoints. I can't tell you how many times all of you have had a different perspective that provided a wonderful insight for me. I think that's the fun of it all! And so far, none of us have been rigid about their own version, so it's been a delightful back and forth of ideas!

I do look at other sites for spoilers! AlyBlacklist has some of the best. It seems she vets them pretty well before she posts.

Anyway, I don't know any of you IRL, but I can't thank you enough for this lovely and sometimes lively dialogue! I'm currently a full-time wife, mother, housewife, etc. and this year experienced some significant losses so this is my safe haven for fun and yes, intellect

Tuxie400 · 3/06/2017 12:10 pm

I was watching Season 1's Wujing over the weekend and was really struck by a few things. Meera says about Wujing, "He was the second child, so they gave him away. He was invisible to his familly." Since we've been taking about all Red's possible daughters, I'm wondering if Liz was his second child, and she was in danger of being killed, so Raymond (and the rest of the family) had to give her away and make her invisible. Could the person/persons coming after Red be angry that Red broke that vow to keep her invisible? After all, Liz was just on national television again after her presidential pardon. Red does keep making her famous over and over again - exactly the opposite of invisible.

It's also interesting that Aram's biggest episode in terms of plot and screen time comes in an episode called The Architect. Aram made his first Blacklist appearance in Wujing, an episode that focused on saving the architect Henry Cho, who was a CIA asset. In that episode, Cho's child is in danger of being killed along with him and he covers the child with a tarp to make him invisible to the assassins.

Could the attack on Red, as mind bending as it is, be coming from a group of so-called good characters: Dom, Aram, Mr. Kaplan, and possibly Dembe working together? Have I lost my mind: Maybe. I know I've argued against Kaplan and Aram being suspects before, but now I'm rethinking it. Dom, Aram, and the Scotch are linked in the Artax Network.

Dom sort of likes Raymond, but holds him responsible for killing Katarina. Imagine how he must have felt when he saw news that Liz got a presidential pardon. He didn't even know she was alive. Raymond never bothered to let him know, and he never let him meet his granddaughter and great-granddaughter. What if the person who picked Kaplan up on the road was Dom? (I'm thinking Kaplan's related to Dom because she had that coat on like his when she left Mountain Man's cabin.) What if the two of them enlisted Aram to help them because they see Red as a serious threat to Liz and the baby. He hasn't "let her go."

The show has shown Aram's love for his friends before, many times. He even took measures to give up half his paycheck for Samar. Something has happened to change Aram's view on killing bad guys. Something that made him take up a bazooka and kill the architect. He's heard both Cooper and Ressler badmouth Red repeatedly this season, and he's Agnes's god father. I imagine Aram would take that job very seriously. Hearing Dom and Kaplan's sad stories might push him over the edge.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (3/06/2017 12:19 pm)

Tatiana · 3/06/2017 1:10 pm

Tuxie WOW!!!
What great insight!

Several of your comments really strike me:
1) the second child. I've wondered a lot about that. Elizabeth could be his second child or Elizabeth could be a child he and Carla took care of for part of the year. Either way, there's a lot to support that Red was 'father' to Elizabeth by caring for her upbringing.

2) Kaplan and Dom - I have never been able to get that out of my head, that suspicion that they are somehow related so your whole concept here is really compelling.

3) Wait there's more! I've been mulling about the 'architect' theme since we saw the 14th episode but for different reasons than you. I've been looking at all the books on the shelves in Red's flat. There's a book on Architecture and a book on Great Houses of America. That along with the reference to the Mid-Century Case Study House Kirk referenced in relation to Katarina adds to the architecture/architect focus. (The Case Study Houses Program, promoted by the magazine Arts and Architecture in 1945, represented the most important American contribution to the Mid-Century Modern architecture.
The main inspiration of the thirty six houses designed for the program, was the desire of a generation of architects to realize affordable and modern houses to satisfy the post war building boom.)

lara1 · 3/06/2017 1:49 pm

Tuxie400 #71 - interesting observations!

I've always wondered about the "second" child thing in Wujing. I do think that somewhere, somehow there is a hidden "second" child, and I think Flora Segunda also points us in that direction. Two Mashas, two Elizabeths, two daughters, something. And your idea of taking Liz away to make her "invisible" makes sense especially given Dom's comments to Red about backing out of Masha's life.

Your theory on someone being upset that Red may have reneged (well, I think we know he reneged on some promise to someone to keep out of Masha's life) on an agreement to stay out of her life, is interesting, especially considering that was what seemed to have so enraged Kirk about his "daughter".....when he saw her on the news with Red he became obsessed all over again and determined to get her and to take revenge on Red. Of course, he had additional motives re Red, but he was clearly enraged by how Liz had been turned into a "criminal" on the national news, by Red (in Kirk's view).

As for Kaplan/Dom, one of my thoughts was that Kaplan knew who picked her up (I'm almost certain she nodded and smiled like she knew the person) - anyway the fact that she was wearing a coat identical to Dom's in that scene was a clue I think - either Dom picked her up, or signaling a connection between Kaplan and Dom.

When I went back and watched ARtax recently, I looked for a pickup truck on Dom's property but couldn't see one....only a station wagon, or at least what looked like one. But he could easily have had a truck back there.

Very interesting parallels with the architect in Wujing and The Architect. Wow, it seems like whenever we get a new clue we need to re-watch a lot of the series again! LOL!

Tuxie400 · 3/06/2017 1:51 pm

Tatiana - You are right about architecture coming up in the fall finale with the case study houses. I hadn't thought about Red having those architecture books in his flat! Along the lines of architecture, I was just thinking how many times we've seen bay windows in the show: Liz and Tom's first home, the Takoma Park house, and Red's flat.

lara1 · 3/06/2017 1:55 pm

Tatiana #72 - interesting thoughts on the architect. And that book on Red's shelf. I wonder if that's why they showed us Red's flat again in that amount of detail. The case study house is another clue. OK, I'm so tempted to say that Red was an architect, LOL, and designed one of those houses! But I know that doesn't make any sense time-wise.

Well, if the flat really is Red's, its possible a close relative (father/mother) was one of those architects (fictionally) and maybe he even lived in that house, as some of us theorized. If the flat is not Red's, not sure.
But an intriguing connection!

Re #70, my thoughts also, we are great group. and its great to share ideas as many of us are deep thinkers, and we each bring to the table expertise in a different area, which is always helpful not to mention makes for great reading!

Honey West · 3/06/2017 4:28 pm

Tatiana wrote:
Lara: "I tend to avoid individual blogs, not sure why, I think maybe because I like to try to figure out my own theories based on how I experience what's on screen and script. I do dip into general discussion sites fro time to time though - like Blacklist Exposed.

Interesting, I'm the same way. My 'theory' is that I prefer a more 'scientific' method if you will of theories, i.e. let the clues lead you to a conclusion, don't let your conclusion dictate what clues you use. And I often find on individual sites a tendency toward theories which verge on fanfiction which I dislike.

Groups like this one provide multiple viewpoints. I can't tell you how many times all of you have had a different perspective that provided a wonderful insight for me. I think that's the fun of it all! And so far, none of us have been rigid about their own version, so it's been a delightful back and forth of ideas!

I do look at other sites for spoilers! AlyBlacklist has some of the best. It seems she vets them pretty well before she posts.

Anyway, I don't know any of you IRL, but I can't thank you enough for this lovely and sometimes lively dialogue! I'm currently a full-time wife, mother, housewife, etc. and this year experienced some significant losses so this is my safe haven for fun and yes, intellect

Ditto, Tatiana. I do the same things. This is the only discussion group that I read. Never go to any others. And why should I? I think we are the best for the back and forth and give and take of a real discussion group, and I love it! I also,look at alyblacklist for the same reasons. Things seem to be on the up and up there. And this is a safe haven. I think I would enjoy a face to face discussion with any of you! I just went back to work full time a couple of weeks ago. Need to pay off some bills and think about a new car, not because I love working! So this is now providing me with a nice break to read during my lunch breaks. (happy)

Honey West · 3/06/2017 4:29 pm

Terrific stuff, Tuxie400 #70! I will comment more later. Lunch is over!

Colleen · 3/06/2017 4:38 pm

Tatiana wrote:
Lara: "I tend to avoid individual blogs, not sure why, I think maybe because I like to try to figure out my own theories based on how I experience what's on screen and script. I do dip into general discussion sites fro time to time though - like Blacklist Exposed.

Interesting, I'm the same way. My 'theory' is that I prefer a more 'scientific' method if you will of theories, i.e. let the clues lead you to a conclusion, don't let your conclusion dictate what clues you use. And I often find on individual sites a tendency toward theories which verge on fanfiction which I dislike.

Groups like this one provide multiple viewpoints. I can't tell you how many times all of you have had a different perspective that provided a wonderful insight for me. I think that's the fun of it all! And so far, none of us have been rigid about their own version, so it's been a delightful back and forth of ideas!

I do look at other sites for spoilers! AlyBlacklist has some of the best. It seems she vets them pretty well before she posts.

Anyway, I don't know any of you IRL, but I can't thank you enough for this lovely and sometimes lively dialogue! I'm currently a full-time wife, mother, housewife, etc. and this year experienced some significant losses so this is my safe haven for fun and yes, intellect

Hello to All - sorry for not posting in a while - but I wanted to give Tatiana a sincere THANK YOU for perfectly expressing how I and many others feel about this site. What a great bunch of people are here!

Tuxie400 · 3/06/2017 6:09 pm

Well I have to admit I got my own tumblr just because I wanted to discuss things with Tessa, and that was the only way I could reach her. She posted a couple of summers ago on the Blacklist Support group, but then got her own tumblr blog, and, as far as I know did not return to our group. Tessa has had some amazing insights into fire night, wearing plaid, and other aspects of the Blacklist over the years. She's totally into parallels,mirroring and symbols. Some of her theories are pretty wild, and I certainly don't subscribe to all of them. My tumblr blog, should anyone want to check it out, is under the name Irondestinypolice. It's the name tumblr gave me, and I liked the weirdness of it, so I kept it. I have the photo of Aram's cat picture on there that we were talking about. I reblogged it from someone else.

I do love this group dearly, but when there aren't new postings, I go in search of other theorists. It's a bad, bad addiction. LOL

Last edited by Tuxie400 (3/06/2017 6:37 pm)

lara1 · 3/08/2017 12:52 am

OK, I have been thinking about this again because Red's cruise line deal popped into my head for some reason tonight! LOL. So I'm thinking the person or persons trying to take down Red had to know certain things. This pulls together several of our thoughts. I don't have the answer, but maybe setting it out in the following way will be helpful. Of course it may not be related to any of this! (Just a note - if you are trying to read this on a phone, it is long!)

1. Whoever hired Isabella Stone to approach Natalie Luca to blackmail her into infecting Zach Smoll had to know about Natalie Luca and her illness Since Natalie was essentially kept as a human guinea pig by Hawthorne Labs/Logistics, the only people who could know about this had to either be affiliated or know of Hawthorne's work; or know what happened to Natalie way back in Moldova. WE have no clues whatsoever to the latter. For the former, Howard (in Redemption) has discovered that Scottie is involved in something called Whitehall. Whitehall is the part of Hawthorne that was working on trying to weaponize the illness that Natalie had. So the question is, who else, other than Scottie, who we have seen, knows about Hawthorne/Whitehall? Anyone?

2. Zack Smoll. Now this is what got me thinking. Smoll's death seems to have been timed very specifically to disrupt Red's cruise line deal. So who knew about that? Other than the people who were in the room when Red told Smoll about it? Baldur may have come to know about it by approaching the cruise line's owner with a similar deal to what Red had done, then was able to jump in when Red's payment did not come through. Baldur told Red that he did not kill Smoll, just moved on a business opportunity, and Red believed him. It seems to me that only a small circle of people would have know that Red was about to do that deal. And who had authority to move Red's funds? the 11 invited to dinner....and?

3. The poison. As we've discussed a lot, someone would need to know Red's medical history. Yet no medical history was found with the apothecary. Additionally, we thought that if it is an allergy, something more basic, like a cat allergy or other allergy, could be known to a wider group of people. It puzzles me that no medical history was found with the apothecary though. Also, the person would have to know how to contact the Apothecary.

4. The flat. Related to #3, who knows about the existence of Red's flat, owned under an alias. I think anyone who knew could have got into the flat (but perhaps the surveillance camera captured it?? - but is that with Dembe), the question I think is, who knew about the flat?

5. The ICU doctor. Now here's an interesting thing that occurred to me. The doctor tells Red that he has 24-48 hours, yet supposedly had no idea what the poison was, so how could they know the ultimate impact? Perhaps this was based on the progress of the effects of the poison.

6. Cooper. No I don't think it was Cooper, but someone a few days ago theorized that the person after Red could be angry that Red perhaps broke an agreement never to go near Liz. Yet he did, and she ended up on national news several times, her reputation in tatters. Interestingly, the person behind this used Isabella Stone, and is trying to destroy Red's reputation, make him look weak and ineffectual, and plant seeds of doubt within his inner circle. Additionally when Cooper recently chewed out Red, he basically berates him for having destroyed Liz's reputation and having no real way to put things right. So I think this theory has credence.

So, in summary the person responsible may have the following knowledge/motive

1. Know specifically about the cruise line deal
2. have knowledge of and be able to access Reds accounts
3. Know about Natalie Luca's illness.
4. Know about the existence of the flat and its location.
5. Know Red's medical history and/or any allergie and know of and be able to contact, the Apothecary
6. Have motive to destroy Red's reputation, by making him look weak and ineffectual, under attack and unable to resolve it or defend himself, and cause him emotional pain (close associates i.e. Stratos dying) as well as physical suffering. And make Red seriously doubt who he can trust. And possibly frame the person he is closest to, Dembe, causing more emotional distress.

Kaplan - # 4, possibly #2, probably #5 - not sure she would know how to contact the apothecary
Dembe - #1, #4, possibly #2, Probably #5 - ditto on the Apothecary
Elise/Janet - #2, possibly (though hacking), I don't see her knowing anything else, except, if she is Jennifer, possibly #5. Apothecary?? maybe, through dark web contacts
Aram - #2 (through Anslo Garrick "test" from Red, and potentially hacking). Would not know Red's medical history so even if he could contact the apothecary through the dark web, would he know what to ask for?
Liz - #4, possibly #1 (not sure if she was within earshot when Red talked to Smoll about it)
Unknown Big Bad - #2, #3, possibly #5. #4 if surveilling Red, possibly know the Apothecary

Motive (not saying I agree with any of these just setting out some possibilities)

1. Kaplan - maybe, but she didn't seem bent on revenge
2. Dembe - maybe for Red killing Kate, but I don't see him killing Red plus how would he know about Natalie Luca?
3. Elise/Janet - no motive unless is Jennifer or connected or employed by Big Bad. If Jennifer, possibly feels betrayed by Red in some way for having messed up her life.
4 and 5 - I can see no obvious motive for either
6. Unknown Big Bad - government or other conspiracy to get rid of Red to either take over his business empire or otherwise for past transgressions; or see him as a threat. Or its personal - someone who is upset at Red breaking an agreement to not have contact with Liz Could be anyone - Katarina, Liz's "real" father (if you believe Red is not her father, or that her father survived being "killed", unbeknownst to Red).

Of course Red may have arranged his own poisoning in which case, we can remove #4 and #5. Which may widen or narrow the list of potential suspects! LOL!

For any of these to work, I think some sort of surveillance ability is needed.

Any other likely suspects? thoughts? Other than that its time for me to get some sleep!

EDITED to add: I didn't include Marvin Gerard. I don't think he is a serious suspect. Either, he is innocent collateral damage (ie it just happened that he couldn't make the meeting and sent the bottle of wine and its all a huge misunderstanding/coincidence (but there are no coincidences!ha) ) or someone set it up to look like him. In which case, we would need to add a sixth tiem to my list of things the person/persons would have had to know - that Marvin had the Tahiti trip planned, it conflicted with the dinner, and he planned to send a bottle of wine. And I don't think anyone could have possibly known that except for someone surveilling REd and all of his associates' activities - and that person/persons would have had to know about the dinner - same answer - big surveillance. And Red was on the verge of shooting Marvin. If so, the person/persons would have taken out another close associate of Red, again causing Red emotional distress when he would ultimately discover that Marvin was innocent.

All just thoughts and theories of course!

The end. For tonight. LOL

Last edited by lara1 (3/08/2017 1:40 am)