The Blacklist Refugees » Episode 4.15, "The Apothecary" Discussion

Tuxie400 · 3/02/2017 12:50 am

lara1 - Maybe the Harbormaster speech was about Jennifer. But I really don't think Red knew where Carla and Jennifer were. I think he stayed away from them to protect them. Perhaps he was like Isabella Stone's husband. What I don't understand was why Jennifer was afraid Red would "come for her someday." Did she fear him for some reason, or just hate him because she thought he was a traitor to his country.?

Tatiana · 3/02/2017 10:30 am

Rewatched Apothecary last night - wow! Did any of you get that opening scene between Red and Dembe? Re-Watching it puts a whole new spin on their dialogue:
[ Tropical music playing ]
[ Red’s secret flat ] [ Dembe uncorks a bottle of Scotch ]
Dembe: Raymond. Are you sure about this? Bringing them all together in one location. It’s dangerous. [ Scotch pours ]
Red: One of our most trusted confidantes intends to do irrevocable damage to the organization. Needs to be confronted swiftly.
Dembe: It’s dangerous.
Red: [ Swallows, exhales ] There’s a traitor in the family. I intend to find them.
Dembe: And if something goes wrong?

Dembe: And if something goes wrong?

Why would Dembe say that? If Red is just getting his closest team members together, why would something go wrong?

Mr. Solomon, Concl.Tom: Liz, you can do this. When you wake up, I’m gonna take you away from here. We’re gonna be lying on a beach under the sun. Just you, me, and our little baby girl. I promise you.[ Wheezing ]Liz: If things go sideways, you’re gonna take our baby to that beach, right?Tom: Don’t say that. They won’t go sideways. We have too much to look forward to.
Tom: Liz, what’s wrong?Liz: My chest.Tom: Hey, she can’t breathe.[ Crying continues ] [ Beeping continues ]Mr Kaplan: Give me the baby.Tom: What’s wrong with her?Nick: O2 levels are dropping. Get her some oxygen.

Similar in a way. Both gasping for breath. Both partners (Dembe and Tom) saying something to the order of, it's too dangerous, what if things go sideways?

Do we have evidence to think Red set this whole thing up as a ruse?
I think it's a definite possibility, although maybe not the real answer.

We replayed that opening scene over and over again because we can't see any other reason why Dembe would caution Red so much. He doesn't usually unless he has grave concerns.

On silly note: we've discussed how Raymond must have some kind of respiratory deficiency which the poison targeted. I couldn't help but laugh remembering this scene:

Kirk: Since we have a history together, I’ll give you the choice. Would you prefer to suffocate or to have a heart attack?Red: You’re not gonna kill me.Kirk: And why is that? Because that means I’ll die, too?Red: Dying isn’t so bad. I did it once in Marrakesh.Kirk: Suffocation. You talk too much.Red: Perhaps I should listen more.

Here's another breathing, respiratory reference... co-eenkydink?

Tuxie400 · 3/02/2017 11:04 am

W'ow, Tatiana! I hadn't connected Red's respiratory distress with Liz's, but there certainly is a parallel. I think it's a clue, but I'm not sure toward what. Here are some possibilities:

1. Mr. Kaplan was responsible for both.
2. The person responsible wanted Red to suffer in the same way Liz had. (A friend of Liz or Katarina)
3. The person responsible was someone who lived with the victim in a father-daughter reladionship. (Kirk with Liz, and Jennifer with Red.)

Those tricky writers! That was a most brilliant parallel because it can be interpreted in so many ways!

I think Kirk giving Red the injection to suffocate him was foreshadowing the poisoning episode.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (3/02/2017 11:09 am)

Honey West · 3/02/2017 11:09 am

No, Tatiana #222, I doubt it's a coincidence. When I watched the opening I had thought that they just liked the Dembe line about something going wrong so they could jump to Red, obviously in trouble, and something had gone wrong. But it also does play to the notion that Red was setting something up with that dinner in order to ferret out who the traitor was. In fact, that's what he was doing. We just never really got to hear what he had really planned. I don't think he set up his own poisoning, but I think he did expect some sort of trouble. He wouldn't be Red if he didn't. But in any case, when Marvin didn't show up, he automatically became suspect and so Red couldn't let the others go until he'd questioned Marvin, too, so that's why they got locked in the kitchen. I think Red meant to get Marvin and bring him back to the restaurant, let the others out and have his "meeting". If he planned the poisoning then he didn't do a very good job if he didn't already have the antidote lined up.

But yes there have been a lot of suffocation references in the series. And it seems that is the way most want to do in Red. It started with Luther Braxton when Red stopped breathing and Liz had to try and revive him after the boiler explosion. Before that was when Red suffocated Newton Gray with the bag that Luli's ashes had been in.

lara1 · 3/02/2017 11:37 am

I like where this idea is going. Especially the parallel Tatiana points out between the Liz respirator scene and the Red one and Tuxie400 what it might mean. Is it just another reference to tie in Kaplan, or is it something more? Or, does it signal, since Liz's respirator issues were deliberate and part of Kaplan's plan, was the same with Red deliberate and part of a plan he had?

Until the last scene in the episode I thought that Red might have set it up. Either used a different poison to which the "sketchy" doctor had the antidote - it was strange to me that the doctor didn't want Liz or the FBI to see Red until he was conscious, yet Baz and Glen were already in the room with Red. So did Red set it up and the doctor administered the "antidote" ?

That line that Red said in the pharmacy, against wanting to live and fighting against death, could have been meant generally, not to the poison specifically.

But Red seemed genuinely frightened, and that last scene seems to seal the deal that there was "real" poison in the glass and Red genuinely can't believe it would have been Dembe.

So now I don't know what to think! LOL clever clever writers!!!

Last edited by lara1 (3/02/2017 12:04 pm)

lara1 · 3/02/2017 11:44 am

Tatiana #222 - when I saw that, I thought Dembe was worried because bringing everyone together - what if it were some sort of wider conspiracy, if one or a number of people at the dinner attacked Red, not sure it could have been stopped or prevented. Or, if someone was after Red's associates, they could possibly organize a hit and take them all out at once. By gathering everyone in one place made it very risky.

But I see how it could be that Red was setting up something to bait them and call out the traitor. Then it all went sideways when he was poisoned for real, and he did not expect that.

But looking at that scene and the discussion between them has sealed the deal for me that Dembe wasn't intentionally poisoning Red.

Honey West #224 - lots of reference to not being able to breathe. Liz in the box, the guy who was kidnapped and buried underground with limited oxygen; when Karakurt is "shipped" into the US in a coffin, with an oxygen supply, the toxin that Liz was sprayed with by Velov, I think. Also, both Red ad Stratos having been shot in the right lung. I did a list somewhere and since there are also so many references to being buried, or in a box, my theory was that Red was buried at one point as a form of torture. but that's just conjecture.

Maybe the man who Liz shot on fire night was shot in the lung? LOL it could be almost anything, but I agree there are a lot of references to it in the series....

Last edited by lara1 (3/02/2017 11:46 am)

lara1 · 3/02/2017 11:49 am

So thinking about this a bit more, and did Red have something planned at the dinner. It is reasonable to think he didn't just call them there for a chat.

I think it gets back to whether or not we think Red is 10 steps ahead of the game, or just reacting. In prior seasons he was always being very clever, being ahead of the game, or if he was surprised, by cooking up a great plan (like with Berlin). Lately though he has seemed off his game, and reacting rather than being clever and plotting something.

So if he is back on his game, he would have plotted something clever. so its very possible. LOL that's my thought for this morning!

Tuxie400 · 3/02/2017 12:30 pm

One more reference to suffocation came in The Thrushes with Red's private talk with Harold about Liz:

Red: I knew it would complicate things. I’d be forced to take security measures… Things she’d hate. Now all I see is the resentment in her eyes. I’m suffocating her, Harold.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (3/02/2017 12:31 pm)

Eastcoast · 3/02/2017 1:03 pm

Red was coughing when he was giving his speech at the end of the table. Did anyone notice if he had drank any of the wine before he started coughing?

I really don't think it was Dembe. The Dr. said he left as soon as he was stabilized. I don't think he would have hung around let alone take him to get help. But who knows?

I too am skeptical of the Dr. I have my own list of suspects a lot of the same you all have.
The cabal, Elsie, Susan Hargrave and Alexander Kirk.

lara1 · 3/02/2017 1:29 pm

Tuxie400 #228 - yes good catch! There are so many repeated themes and clues, I feel like we need a collective version of Tom or Howard's "wall of clues", complete with red string connecting things, LOL!

I noticed for the first time on a partial re-watch of the episode I did last night, that there was a plaid wool blanket over one of the chairs in Red's flat. I'm not sure if it was there before (going to check). He was not sitting in that chair in the opening scene, but he was when he was interrogating Marvin and took the call from Liz and realized the Scotch may have been poisoned. I don't know what the plaid means, but I think its interesting that Red was sitting in that chair when those things happened....

Eastcoast #229 - Hello there! I didn't happen to notice whether Red drank any of the wine before he started coughing, I have thought that myself, I will check it on next re-watch

Tatiana · 3/02/2017 2:26 pm

lara1 wrote:
Tuxie400 #228 - yes good catch! There are so many repeated themes and clues, I feel like we need a collective version of Tom or Howard's "wall of clues", complete with red string connecting things, LOL!

I noticed for the first time on a partial re-watch of the episode I did last night, that there was a plaid wool blanket over one of the chairs in Red's flat. I'm not sure if it was there before (going to check). He was not sitting in that chair in the opening scene, but he was when he was interrogating Marvin and took the call from Liz and realized the Scotch may have been poisoned. I don't know what the plaid means, but I think its interesting that Red was sitting in that chair when those things happened....

Eastcoast #229 - Hello there! I didn't happen to notice whether Red drank any of the wine before he started coughing, I have thought that myself, I will check it on next re-watch

Eastcoast and Lara - we re-watched and Red did not drink the wine before he started coughing.

Also, Red's Cattington Flat (lol) - I noticed the plaid blanket, too Lara, and it didn't make sense. The flat looks different than the original but I haven't had a chance to do side-by-side pics. I had initially thought the scotch decanter was less than half full when he checks it later but more than half full when Dembe hands him the glass of Scotch.

Will have to re-look.

Laocoon · 3/02/2017 2:56 pm

Agree the flat looks different. Given that Reddington moves around or doesn't stay in the same place for more than two nights in a row, he may have a new flat with many of the same objects that he holds dear. The old flat wasn't safe if Liz, Leonard Caul and others knew of it or were followed.

Did anyone notice the vinyl LP collection behind Marvin? Another theme, music.

I agree also that Red planned something with the dinner but it went sideways. It's pretty clear that his world is crumbling so now he has to react and adapt more.

Laocoon · 3/02/2017 3:05 pm

Another thought after checking Winter Hiatus - why did Red get so wigged out and behave so erratically? And then forget?

Was he drugged with a poison or a hallucinogen? If part of his memory had been erased, could a mental wall (created through conditioning) have been broken down by a drug? I'm thinking about the CIA's postwar experiments with LSD and all that, plus our discussions on the Support Group about MKUltra.

The doctor did seem to be on the edge of trusted and not trusted, as if the *77 network had possibly been penetrated.

Tuxie400 · 3/02/2017 3:20 pm

lara1 - I'm almost to the point of making a physical wall of clues. LOL With Blacklist, it might have to be a whole room of clues 4 walls.

Tessa of the Criminal Minds tumblr and Keen Minds podcast believes when people are wearing plaid or plaid is shown, something is not what it seems or deception is involved. I tend to agree. She tends not to trust what Red is saying when he wears that plaid vest. LOL!

Last edited by Tuxie400 (3/02/2017 3:49 pm)

Tatiana · 3/02/2017 3:38 pm

Laocoon wrote:
Another thought after checking Winter Hiatus - why did Red get so wigged out and behave so erratically? And then forget?

Was he drugged with a poison or a hallucinogen? If part of his memory had been erased, could a mental wall (created through conditioning) have been broken down by a drug? I'm thinking about the CIA's postwar experiments with LSD and all that, plus our discussions on the Support Group about MKUltra.

The doctor did seem to be on the edge of trusted and not trusted, as if the *77 network had possibly been penetrated.

Yes, Laocoon! I wondered as well, especially after watching again last night. His physical reaction was far more than a severe allergy. He had significant memory loss.... so that could tie in with your signature theory!

Tuxie400 · 3/02/2017 3:49 pm

About the memory loss, Honey West discovered information about that snake venom that said it could cause memory loss. But maybe some hallucinogens were added to mix.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (3/02/2017 3:50 pm)

Honey West · 3/02/2017 4:06 pm

No time while eating lunch here to reply to each individual, but yes, I neglected to say Liz in the Box for suffocating but you all caught up with all of the others just fine!

No Red did not drink the wine as far as we saw, in fact he thought he hadn't when he was at the Post Office, but assumed that he had. It's even possible that the scotch is a red herring and the poison was administered another way, especially if the cat allergy angle is anywhere near correct. We saw the Apothecary use inhalers, eye drops, I'm sure he has many ways that a toxin could be given to someone. I'm trying to think if Red has seemed to touch, eat or drink anything that seemed unusual as to why they would show us, but can't think of anything here at work. He definitely coughed at the dinner the same way he was coughing later, not just a throat clearing before speaking thing.

I think the dinner was to expose the traitor and that Red intended to shoot them right then and there as an example to the rest. When Marvin was absent it sort of meant a change in plans as he had to go get Marvin, with maybe Marvin being the traitor. He later collapsed at Becky's house.

Red has been off his game for some time. I had wondered if it was something leftover from his opium binge. Opium is highly addictive. So is Red having some issues related to that? No proof, just wondering if that will come up again.

As far as his amnesia, people who have been bitten by venomous snakes have reported memory issues afterwards. Plus we don't know exactly what was in the poison, one of the other substances could be causing the memory issues. Although I don't know if that is likely something that was planned because obviously it wouldn't,t matter if he remembered since he was supposed to be dead. Which brings up another question as to how quickly the poison was to act? Was he meant to have time to think about what was happening or does he have something else going on that slowed down the action of the poison. Surely someone who knew him so well would have known that he might figure out how to survive.

lara1 · 3/02/2017 4:38 pm

Such interesting thoughts! Well I am now back to my theory that the Scotch and poison was a red herring, intended to blame Dembe. So here is a slightly new addition to the twist!

The person could have had the apothecary manufacture the poison etc. But - what if the apothecary also did something with an inhaler as well? We saw him incapacitate his wife with it. All the discussion of respiratory issues made me think of that, and the way Liz was infected with the virus she passed onto the Senator was by an inhaler or spray, wasn't it? As well as the virus that was sprayed through an inhaler to Samar in another episode, right?

So what if someone placed a "bad inhaler" in Red's flat (we saw him use it later when he was making the phone calls, and this runs along the cat allergy line - he may have used it earlier for his allergy). Maybe the poison was not even put in the Scotch, or maybe such a small amount that it would not kill him, but again it could frame Dembe. So if they do test the bottle (I bet they don't), a trace shows up. Maybe that accounts for Red's mixed reactions/symptoms? He seems to be having respiratory, memory as well as trouble seeing/focusing.....and generally staying conscious without passing out.

The inhaler was pretty prominent in the episode. We see him clinging to it. LouLou hands him one in the pharmacy, and as she passes it to him, he passes out (was that a clue???) Then we see her hand one to him again back at the house - multiple close ups of inhalers. (II'm not saying that the inhaler from the pharmacy was tainted in any way, just a clue/symbol of how Red had initially been given poison/dangerous drug cocktail, whatever it was.)

Maybe again the sketchy doctor was in on it, to help prolong rather than cure the thing initially. (and provide a "fake" cure at the end - he would not have used the antidote provided by the FBI and yes he did not want them in the room right away)

All to frame Dembe and cause heartbreak to Red - whether or not he kills Dembe (I don't want this but it would be the ultimate sort of revenge) and then finds out he was innocent. But all to inflict maximum emotional as well as physical pain and suffering. I think its very, very personal.

lara1 · 3/02/2017 4:41 pm

Tuxie400 #234 - I don't follow the blog or podcast you mention - interesting theory on the plaid. Has she said how she came to that theory of the symbolism?

Tatiana · 3/02/2017 4:43 pm

Honey - yes, now that I think of it, we're never informed that they tested the Scotch. They only tested the wine. However, Liz did say that the poison would have been administered in a liquid with a stronger alcohol content (not sure what science that's based on, but I digress...)

Forgot about the hallucinations with snake venom. Thanks for clarifying. I know we all do like to explore different theories and paths because TBL provides so many red herrings. So it is most likely that Dembe was simply cautioning and that dialogue was for dramatic effect when we split to Red gasping for air in the makeshift ER.

I think we're all pretty convinced Red was not poisoned by Dembe and/or Kate, right? And that if Kate had any part in it, she was severely coerced.