It's been brought to my attention how many bird references there have been in Season 4, starting with cuckoo clock in the Mato episode, then The Thrushes as the hacker group Elise worked for, and this unforgettable Panabaker analogy in The Thrushes episode :

Panabaker: Okay, Harold. Let them run out some line. But you best keep your thumb tight on the drag, or you’re like to find a bird’s nest on your reel. Understand?

(Did the bird - Elise/Janet/Jennifer? - build a nest that they still haven't gotten rid of?)

In the Harem episode, Ressler used this bird figure of speech
Ressler: Little birdie told us. It’s the same little birdie who uh, told us that you have a brother doing six years for armed robbery. You vouch for Agent Keen here and uh, maybe Jimmy will get out in time for the Super Bowl.

Isabella Stone ep:
Red: You’ll find your time with her goes by too quickly. That’s why cuckoo clocks are perfect. I don’t really care what time it is. I just want to hear the birds sing.

The Apothecary ep:
Soundtrack: My Girl By The Temptations“I’ve got a sweeter song than the birds in the trees.”Soundtrack: No Salt On Her Tail By The Mamas and The Papas
“This little bird, she can fly away;
No salt on her tail –
No cage to make her stay.”

So what's with all the bird references?  I think they're clues that Elise/Janet is still at work big time.

I also think all the female blacklisters are foreshadowing a female is the one attacking Red. Poison, after all, is traditionally a woman's weapon of choice. And we know Elise/Janet doesn't mind inflicting collateral damage. She was undercover as an engineer when the Thrushes caused the deaths of 37 engineers at a nuclear plant.        

lara1 -  I like your thinking.Yes, if Elise is Jennifer, that would bring us back full circle! And if she blames Red for something he didn't do, that would mirror Berlin and Kirk.

(Tom's code name for Liz was Mockingbird. )

Laocoon! Great seeing you again. Love to hear your comments :-)

Tuxie400 wrote:

lara1 -  I like your thinking.Yes, if Elise is Jennifer, that would bring us back full circle! And if she blames Red for something he didn't do, that would mirror Berlin and Kirk.

(Tom's code name for Liz was Mockingbird. )

Tuxie400 - getting back to my post #182, about whether Elise/Janet/possible Jennifer blames Red for something he didn't do -

That reminds me of one of my theories of Red - that he was on a mission, something blew up/went wrong and he was blamed for it when it was not his fault.  Regardless, the government backed out and disavowed all knowledge of him, leaving him flying in the wind as it were.  A betrayal by the government, perhaps.

At the beginning of Redemption, the agent that Halcyon has been tasked to find - has been kidnapped and the CIA disavowed her (she's the type of agent that never "existed") and they issued a Burn notice on her.  I thought how appropriate a burn notice might be for the story of Red.  Did things go south back then, did the gov back out and disavow him, and "burn" him?  was that in part what Dom was also referring to - backing out of Masha's life?  hmmm

and whatever happened, the gov backed out, Red went AWOL.  And, possibly, Jennifer blames him for what he did (possibly incorrectly) and what happened as a result.  Just a thought!

Last edited by lara1 (2/27/2017 8:53 pm)

lara1 wrote:

Tuxie400 - getting back to my post #182, about whether Elise/Janet/possible Jennifer blames Red for something he didn't do -

That reminds me of one of my theories of Red - that he was on a mission, something blew up/went wrong and he was blamed for it when it was not his fault.  Regardless, the government backed out and disavowed all knowledge of him, leaving him flying in the wind as it were.  A betrayal by the government, perhaps.

At the beginning of Redemption, the agent that Halcyon has been tasked to find - has been kidnapped and the CIA disavowed her (she's the type of agent that never "existed") and they issued a Burn notice on her.  I thought how appropriate a burn notice might be for the story of Red.  Did things go south back then, did the gov back out and disavow him, and "burn" him?  was that in part what Dom was also referring to - backing out of Masha's

I agree that something went very wrong with Red's plan involving Katarina and Liz. I think it's very likely the government burned him, and even set him up to look like a traitor.

We had that episode recently where Liz thought Red killed Emma, and her never set her straight. She thinks he did something awful that he didn't do. Is this foreshadowing Jennifer's mistaken notion about Red?
 

lara1 - If Carla did give information or testimony about someone, maybe when she says, "He;s back, isn't he?" and seems scared, she isn't referring to Red at all. Do you slap someone who you're frightened of? And she talked pretty strongly and bitterly to him.In the face to face scenes, That didn't resonate with fear to me. We do all perceive things in different ways.

As for theories, I keep all three opposing Red theories in my head simultaneously (He's the real Raymond, he's Katarina, and he's another imposter.) LOL! 

Tuxie #191 - I have also thought that when Carla/Naomi said "He's back" and she's so startled, she nearly drops what she is holding, I thought she was referring to someone else.  Who is the mystery.  And I think for we, the audience, we already know that Red has been "back" for a while and Naomi was apparently not in danger from that.  And yeah she was pretty angry with Red!  Because of what he did or what she thought he did all those years ago?   And that was now repeating itself in a way maybe, or that's how she saw it.

Tatiana #192 - 

"Everything about me is a lie" - everyone believes he abandoned his wife and child on Christmas Eve. 
He didn't. 
But we know something did indeed happen that night that even Red does not fully know. Diane Fowler tells him. "I know what happened that night. Do you want to know?" "More than anything else in the world"
And he plugs her full of holes. It's deeply personal. He's very controlled when he kills someone, but not with Diane and not with that night. "

That's a very good point about the abandonment on Christmas Eve.  And Liz brings that up at least twice in the series - I think once in the pilot and once during the Berlin arc with Naomi.  And he does not correct that, either.  So it fits his pattern of not correcting misconceptions.  And yes, I agree, its deeply personal.
 

Last edited by lara1 (2/28/2017 11:30 am)

lara1 wrote:

Tuxie #191 - I have also thought that when Carla/Naomi said "He's back" and she's so startled, she nearly drops what she is holding, I thought she was referring to someone else.  Who is the mystery.  And I think for we, the audience, we already know that Red has been "back" for a while and Naomi was apparently not in danger from that.  And yeah she was pretty angry with Red!  Because of what he did or what she thought he did all those years ago?   And that was now repeating itself in a way maybe, or that's how she saw it.

Tatiana #192 - 

"Everything about me is a lie" - everyone believes he abandoned his wife and child on Christmas Eve. 
He didn't. 
But we know something did indeed happen that night that even Red does not fully know. Diane Fowler tells him. "I know what happened that night. Do you want to know?" "More than anything else in the world"
And he plugs her full of holes. It's deeply personal. He's very controlled when he kills someone, but not with Diane and not with that night. "

That's a very good point about the abandonment on Christmas Eve.  And Liz brings that up at least twice in the series - I think once in the pilot and once during the Berlin arc with Naomi.  And he does not correct that, either.  So it fits his pattern of not correcting misconceptions.  And yes, I agree, its deeply personal.
 

 
And the fact was that Red was ready to take great risk to get her back. Almost as much as he'd do for Liz, I thought. And his if you ever need anything bit at the end, right before Naomi almost pleaded with him to tell Liz the truth.

"And the fact was that Red was ready to take great risk to get her back. Almost as much as he'd do for Liz, I thought. And his if you ever need anything bit at the end, right before Naomi almost pleaded with him to tell Liz the truth."
Honey West #195 - I have an additional idea about this, after the Kaplan/Liz dialogues with Red.

I think absolutely Red was upset (horrified even) over Naomi's abduction and risked a lot to get her back.  But now I'm also thinking that was also because he feared that something compromising, even dangerous to Liz might get revealed to Berlin in the process.  Berlin had acknowledged to Red that Liz was his weakness and obsession, and that Red cared for Liz as much as he cared for his wife.

There is that scene during that arc where Kaplan is called to clean for Red, and its very messy and its something like multiple times within a few weeks.  At that point, she kind of scolds Red about all of his concern and obsession with getting Naomi back.  She even says to him "I don't like it."  And Red is not pleased with that.  So is this also the first inkling of Kate starting to become concerned at the lengths and recklessness that Red had begun to display re something that potentially threatened Liz as well?

I don't know, its just a wild idea.  At the time I thought it a bit odd that Kaplan made that comment in the way she did.  But now having gone through the Liz "betrayal" and Kaplan's words to Red about it, does it (the Berlin arc comments) maybe belong in that same context?

Last edited by lara1 (2/28/2017 5:23 pm)

Quick question - not sure where to put this -

does anyone remember which episode had Tom going "undercover" to find Karakurt?  Where he befriends a wealthy guy and they are both ultimately kidnapped and meant to fight each other and Tom kills the other guy?  for some reason I can't remember which episode that was.  Wanted to check something in the script....