Honey West #144 - thanks for pointing out that Dylan Thomas quote that Red uttered in the pharmacy.  He is determined to push back against death.  So i do think that means that he did not set this up as a fake poisoning.  Whatever the circumstances and whoever is behind the poisoning, it seems it was not a plan by Red.

#160 - thanks for that.  Yes these discussions do have a tendency to take on a life of their own!  LOL

Honey West wrote:

I don't think Red was faking anything. He really thought he was dying. His comment about spending his entire adult life surrounded by a corona of death, even longing for it at times, but lately deciding that he was not going to go gentle into that good night (Dylan Thomas). He's said something like this a couple of times lately and I think what we are being shown is that Red is not only capable of changing, but that he actually IS changing. Just like Kate told him he had to do. The question becomes, is it too late for him to change in any significant way, or has the die been cast? But so far he has only changed his attitude towards dying at any moment being okay, he probably needs to change a whole lot more in order to get "home". And I think it has been through being close to Liz and now being allowed to at least see Agnes that has brought about this potential real change in him. It's as simple as he now has something to live for, not just live.

Honey West -  Raymond does have some things to live for now - Liz and Agnes. I think the writers were making that parallel with Hightower wanting to take the death penalty off the table because he wanted to live for his child. It was interesting that in Red's delirium he was calling the name Elizabeth - just like Lizzy was the last word on his lips when he though Yabari was going to kill him in T. Earl King. 
 

Honey West - Good point about the names. I think Red viewed Liz as a child who had to be protected for a long time. He's calling her Elizabeth now as he tries to stop "smothering" her.

Tuxie400 wrote:

lara1 wrote:

Back to #149 - I just had another thought.

Elise/Janet
Liz/Jennifer

I looked up Janet and Jennifer, and while I can't find that the names are directly related or one is the diminutive of the other, I think the names are indirectly related....both Janet and Jennifer are related to names like Jenny and Jenna...hmmm

So now I am thinking about Flora Segunda.  I previously thought it a clue that "liz" was kind of like a replacement daughter for Red, for his real "lost" daughter, Elizabeth.  But it always bugged me that the book showed up in the cabin, and in the scene where Red and Naomi first meet for the first time in 25 years...and the publication date of that book was the same year that Jennifer "disappeared".

What if that was a clue not necessarily that Liz was a second daughter to Elizabeth, but that Carla and Jennifer were a second family (and hence Jennifer a "second daughter")  to Red's "real" family.

I don't know just a wild thought......

lara1 and Tatiana - Great minds think alike! I was just looking up if there was any connection between the names Janet and Jennifer. Apparently Jenny is a nickname for both.

lara1 - Your idea for the meaning of Flora Segunda is as good as any. Jennifer may be the second daughter.
 

Had another thought re Elise:  I think we commented on this at the time, but the name Elise harkens back to ballerina girl and Elise le Blanc.  is Elise ballerina girl?  I think it more likely its just a clue that Elise/Janet may be someone from Red's past.

it was hard to tell ballerina's girl's age, but if she was 10, Elise/Janet would not be old enough.  Plus I always got the sense that the girl Red was watching dance had something happen to her, as his letter about loss, nightmares etc narrates in the background, and Red is obviously clinging to that program from 1987,

At the time I thought Red had two "real" daughters that he lost, and the march 1987 date on the program further might also signify the birthdate of his other daughter (who then would have been 3 in 1990, (if that' s when the tragedy at Takoma Park happened.)  (I also don't think ballet girl is Jennifer but that's just my opinion.)

But I digress - I think its more likely that the name (i.e. alias) was meant to perhaps signal a connection to Red's past, not necessarily that she is ballet girl (too obvious?)  So that might tie in with Tuxie400's idea that Elise/janet is Jennifer.  

Honey West, Tatiana - should we start a new topic for winter hiatus discussion?  just a thought.  

Last edited by lara1 (2/26/2017 1:32 pm)

Tuxie - On this website she is attributed as acting in a short as early as 2008. It looks like she continued acting after that.  There is scant information on her. 
I would have to assume then that she could at least be played as Jennifer if that's the case since Jennifer was an adult at age 2007 and disappeared then.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3704163/

I've started a thread under the General Discussion board called "Winter Hiatus" where we can share ideas and support each other through the endless days before us in anticipation of the Blacklist return on April 20th! Remember, it's a 2 hour long special, so check for times to make sure you see every moment! 

I wouldn't necessarily use eye color to eliminate her as a possibility though. Remember that Elise/Janet takes on a lot of aliases, identities and appearances.

So true, Tuxie. I keep on thinking, oh wow, that was the same, and then, and that too! But I'm not close to my laptop to post it... snap!  I'm hoping during the break hubby and I can re-watch some of the early episodes and then a few key ones too.

Tuxie400 wrote:

lara1 - What about the scenes with Emma had a Swan Lake/ballet clues?  I remembered someone mentioning her profile was like Red's and that she wore her hair in a bun like ballerina girl.

I agree that Elise/Janet's brown eye and brown hair would echo Carla's.

Tatiana - Yes, I would guess Annie Heise is in her 30s. I'm really bad at guessing ages. I'm getting so old now that everyone looks young to me. LOL

Tuxie400 - here are some things I observed in The Harem episode and Emma in particular that recalled Swan Lake - I think there were one or two other things, I'll try to remember them also:

- In the strip club with the dancers, when the dancers are all gathered around and talking about the diamond that Liz gave one of the dancers (reminiscent of the ballerinas gathered round backstage and talking about Red, in Mako Tanida) the club owner comes over to them and says: = "What's all the racket? I pay you girls to dance, not stand in the back clucking like a bunch of hens in hair extensions" - similar to how the ballerinas were scolded in Mako Tanida - "you are paid to dance, not gossip" something like that

Emma:
-Pale blond hair, blue eyes, profile like Red's
-in most scenes, her hair is on top of her hair in a bun like ballerina girl
-wears black and white in most scenes in the episode (black/white swans)
-2 or 3 things that Emma wears are black and white floral type prints, and floaty, reminiscent of ballet dancers costumes
in particular, one thing she wears is actually a "ballet top" style - a floaty and long top, soft black and white floral, cross over in the front, tied at the waist in a soft bow

- Interestingly, though its not to do with Swan Lake, when Emma meets Red in that last scene, they are dressed in the same colors: grey and black...

- Fun fact though not connected to the ballet that I can find:  Emma's last name is Knightly: In the Jane Austen novel, Emma, she has a sister called isabella (version of Elizabeth) Knightly

 

Last edited by lara1 (2/26/2017 11:01 pm)

lara1 - Thanks for all those ballet connections to Emma! I didn't notice a lot of those. So you don't think she's ballerina girl - even with all those connections? I saw several people on Tumblr suggesting she was. And others who suggested there was a romance between Red and Emma. (Ha ha - the episode brought out the daddygate and shipper theories again - that's like Season 1!)  I saw Emma as a character whose situation mirrored both Liz's and Kaplan's.