The Blacklist Refugees » 2017 Winter Hiatus

Tatiana · 2/26/2017 4:32 pm

Fellow Black List Support Group Refugees
I've started this thread so that we can support one another through this most nail biting of times: the winter hiatus!
We are so close to tipping over the cliff, we can hear the dirt and sand under our feet falling to the abyss below
Suspended in time for 8 weeks is Red teetering between life and death; Dembe on the run; Mr. Kaplan on the road; Liz single-parenting; and an army onslaught against Raymond's empire. How will we ever last 56 days!?

By staying together!!! Please feel free to post in this thread. If you do have a specific comment for a specific episode or theory, etc, please feel free to post there. But often times we start gabbing a bit about weather, pets, vacations, etc. Feel free to chat here.
May you know you are not alone! We will stand with you, provide a tissue, a virtual shoulder to cry on when you just don't feel you can wait another week for April 20th to arrive!

And for those of you who plan to live real life for the next 8 weeks, keep in mind that April 20th will be a TWO HOUR episode (or episodes?). Anyway, be sure to check the start time as we approach that awaited day. Until then, think like a criminal and the answers will come... bwaaaahahaha!

Last edited by Tatiana (2/26/2017 4:33 pm)

Tuxie400 · 2/26/2017 6:13 pm

Thanks Tatiana! Fifty-six days is a very long time!

Colleen · 2/26/2017 7:01 pm

Lol Tatiana - love your post!! :-)

Tatiana · 2/26/2017 7:04 pm

awwww... thank you, Colleen!

Honey West · 2/26/2017 10:02 pm

Thanks for starting this thread, Tatiana! Love the intro post.

lara1 · 3/02/2017 12:19 pm

Switching gears for a moment, I started to think about Adrian Shaw conclusion and what Kirk whispered to Red. JB I believe said that the series would be over if we knew what it was and that the discussion between Kirk and Red re Katarina was very important.

AT the time my own thoughts centered on Red either telling Kirk that Katarina is alive or that Liz is not really Masha, that his daughter is still out there somewhere. But while both of those ideas may be the case, neither of them really reveals the central core mystery of the series, which I think is what is the relationship of Red to Liz and what drives him to protect her at all costs. He couldn't have said to Kirk that he is Liz's father because he had already just said that Elizabeth is his daughter (whatever you think that means, I doubt he would just say it again).

Whatever he said rocked Kirk to the core, to me its like whatever Red said seemed to invalidate huge assumptions that Kirk had based his life and actions on re Red. Something that opened up Kirk's eyes wide to the truth. And cause him to question a lot of what he had done - and agree to let Red go, and keep out of Liz's life.

Apart from the Red/Katarina theory, I think Red told him something about himself. Either who he really is, if he is not Red, or something very important and relevant to Kirk. I'm not entirely sure that Red would want anyone to know who he really is, or what his mission might be, but it was that to stop Kirk or be killed. Which then would beg the question of what happened to Kirk. Dead or cured? And what happened to Dr. Shaw...

When Red asks Kirk to talk about Katarina, Red says he had forgotten what she was really like. And Kirk responds, that Red remembers what she did and not who she was. I think there are huge clues in those two statements though I don't know what they are! But if Red really isn't Red, he would have a different perspective on it from what Kirk would have assumed.

Anyway just some random thoughts. I just no longer see Katarina being alive or Liz not being Masha as that huge, unless there is much more to either of those stories.

LOL!

Last edited by lara1 (3/02/2017 12:22 pm)

Tatiana · 3/02/2017 12:37 pm

Good insight, Lara. I've often thought it was much bigger than "Katarina is alive"

I've been ruminating over the "Everything you think you know about me is a lie" he says to Elizabeth. That makes me want to look at everything Red has ever said to Liz.

I've also been re-reading the Pilot script because we know so much is packed into it. I keep seeing Red's statement in the context of our newest discussion: Red is often accused of things which are untrue and yet he does not dispute or argue the point. Eg., Cooper accusing Red of having only selfish motives for digging up Blacklisters (we're pretty sure that's not true); Liz accusing Red of killing Emma, yet Red does not address it but rather talks about something else.

In the Pilot Liz says, you had a promising career in the Navy, yet you abandoned your wife and your daughter on Christmas Eve so you could pursue a criminal path (my words, not at all verbatim).

So that when you take Red's standard operating response when accused of having selfish motives or is wrongly accused, he says nothing and combine it with that narrative, you have to say, that's not at all true, he wasn't officially in the Navy, he did not abandon his wife and child.

So what did he do? We have only speculation, but maybe Red is undercover either as an American or a Russian operative... whatever it may be, revealing it to Kirk may have made Kirk's eyes pop and he realized maybe Red was working with the KGB, or he was working with Katarina.... I don't think the specifics are important, just the idea that the FBI assumptions about Red are wrong.

Also, I've been re-reading/watching Red's assassination of Diane Fowler. I now wonder when she says, "I know what happened that night. Do you want to know what happened?" and Red says, "More than you will ever know", is she actually talking about Fire night and not Christmas Eve Abandonment night?

lara1 · 3/02/2017 2:01 pm

Tatiana #7 - yes, and during the Berlin arc, Liz again (I think it is in one of the scenes in Red's workshop) states that he abandoned his wife and daughter and at another point makes a sarcastic comment about how his own daughter (she's thinking Jennifer) doesn't want to have anything to do with him. And the fact that Red doesn't refute either is one of the things that makes me think that Jennifer is not his daughter, it's Liz jumping to conclusions and he not correcting her.

Isn't that at the point where Red also asks, who told you she was my daughter? making it ambiguous if he is talking about the girl in the photo (who we learn is Berlin's daughter), or Jennifer. clever writers again!

I have two basic theories on Red. One is that he is deep undercover and the Reddington identity is completely manufactured. I know this means he had to attend the academy but we are also given the impression that he whizzed through it and was part of the plan. And if he is deep undercover, he is not going to refute the "official" version of events.....

The other idea I have is that Red isn't Red but took over Reddington's real identity for reasons that we don't know yet. And that he is a few years older than the 'real" Red. Therefore he seems to have two lives, different houses, marriage, children of different ages (and this is not shared with others, i.e. I think bubble girl is one of his "secrets".) This Red may be Russian (lots of clues but may be misdirects), so could even be a double agent, (secret KGB undercover as US spy, that would be complicated!) who knows!

Whatever it is, I think that Naomi may know, of know part of it, and Scottie may know too ("We all do what we need to survive, you should know that" or words to that effect she tells Red. And she is one of the few characters who call him both Red and Raymond. (Marvin Gerard is another, curiously enough.)

I know this leaves a lot of questions. LOL But it seems strange that one man can be in so many different places.

lara1 · 3/02/2017 2:07 pm

Tatiana #7 - re Diane Fowler, I wonder the same. which night is she talking about? And which night did something terrible happen to his family? I can't tell. those exact lines also feed into my other theory that Red had his memories erased. and Liz is somehow the key to them. But that's another story! LOL

Tuxie400 · 3/02/2017 2:25 pm

You know, as I do more research on Elise and Jennifer and what Red has said about his family, I'm thinking the date on the ballet program is what got everyone so mixed up about Red's timeline and his family. What if that March 1987 date was not when the daughter danced in the ballet or died, but the date when something happened that started Reddington on the path to losing his family? What if it represents the last date he, his home, and his family were safe?

lara1 · 3/02/2017 5:00 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
You know, as I do more research on Elise and Jennifer and what Red has said about his family, I'm thinking the date on the ballet program is what got everyone so mixed up about Red's timeline and his family. What if that March 1987 date was not when the daughter danced in the ballet or died, but the date when something happened that started Reddington on the path to losing his family? What if it represents the last date he, his home, and his family were safe?

Tuxie400 - I have had a symbolic theory on the whole ballet program thing because, yes the date and age of the child is confusing. In my idea, the entire thing is symbolic. Two things stand out: firstly, the cover of that ballet program is very, very similar to the cover of the memorial service program for Sam. Similar colors, off white with red lettering, in what looks to me at least, a very similar style. Secondly, Red is adamant about the date. Its the one thing that he argues with Christine (I think her name was) about. He doesn't care about the "prince"....The ballet performance has to be on that date. So here are my thoughts on the symbolism:

1. The program itself, similar to the one for the memorial service, symbolizes loss/maybe death.
2. The name Elise le Blanc - maybe a clue that Red's "real" daughter who was "lost" or died, was named Elizabeth, and she had blond hair (I've seen le blanc described as "the white" or "blond or fair haired"). And we've seen bubble girl who had blond hair.
3. The date therefore- March 22 1987 - may be the birthdate of his daughter. That would make her 3 years old in March 1990 - which matches the "3" on the years/height chart in the Tacoma Park House. It would also be around the time that Katerina went to Cape May and "killed" herself - roughly two months after the fire, which I think was sometime in late December 1989....and I think whatever happened to Red's family happened after the fire and before he "disappeared" in 1990 (regardless of whether or not he is the real REddington).
4. The ballet performance - I'm not sure how to explain this, but my thoughts are that maybe the school was run by someone Red knew - sister, mother, first "real" wife - none of which we know anything about. And the dancing girl he sees he is imagining, in the sense that, he is thinking or imagining how his little daughter would have looked, had she survived to be old enough to dance in that way. We see "Beth" in the pilot in ballet class - we think its a clue about Liz, but what if its a clue about Red's "real" daughter....

We see a close up of the program Red is holding - but I can't remember if it is visible in the longer view shots. If the program is just a symbol, it may not be visible in both. Of course if the date is not his daughter's birthday then I have no idea what it symbolizes....but I think it means more than just a performance date. Then again what do I know? LOL

IF 3 and 4 are not the case, I still think the program is telling us that Red had a daughter named Elizabeth who died or otherwise became lost to him.

lara1 · 3/02/2017 5:02 pm

I meant to add in my post above that March is used a couple of times. the March 1987 date on the program, the march 1989 date of Red's fingerprints in the FBI file; approx date that Katerina went to Cape May.

Anyone remember any others? Did we have a month for Sam's death? Was there a calendar in the Cape May episode that had a date shown?

EDITED to add: also the reference in Alice in Wonderland to the "march hare" , which is also described as a mad hare. Whatever that may mean!!!

Last edited by lara1 (3/02/2017 5:08 pm)

Tatiana · 3/02/2017 5:12 pm

Lara - In 1987 there is a program dated March 22, of the Elise LeBlanc School of ballet.
In 1988 Red sees Gary Goddard in Safeway, in the diaper aisle.
Tacoma House has a height measurement on the wall that goes to 3 years, presumably the daughter was 3 years old.

Last edited by Tatiana (3/02/2017 5:13 pm)

lara1 · 3/02/2017 5:15 pm

Tatiana - thanks! I totally forgot about the 1988 diaper aisle reference. hmmmm

Tatiana · 3/02/2017 5:27 pm

EDITED to add: also the reference in Alice in Wonderland to the "march hare" , which is also described as a mad hare. Whatever that may mean!!!

Well 'mad' is the British way of saying 'crazy'; 'march hare'?

= a brown hare in the breeding season, noted for its leaping, boxing, and chasing in circles.

In other words, a mad hare or just crazy.
Btw, useless trivia, a mad hatter was caused by the mercury used by haberdashers to create fine hats. It was a terrible poison rendering it's users frightened and shaking.

lara1 · 3/02/2017 5:33 pm

Tatiana #15 - Mad hatter - caused by poisoning....Red has been poisoned....Red has been referred to as, and said he is crazy...LOL

Tuxie400 · 3/03/2017 12:48 pm

lara1 wrote:
Tuxie400 - I have had a symbolic theory on the whole ballet program thing because, yes the date and age of the child is confusing. In my idea, the entire thing is symbolic. Two things stand out: firstly, the cover of that ballet program is very, very similar to the cover of the memorial service program for Sam. Similar colors, off white with red lettering, in what looks to me at least, a very similar style. Secondly, Red is adamant about the date. Its the one thing that he argues with Christine (I think her name was) about. He doesn't care about the "prince"....The ballet performance has to be on that date. So here are my thoughts on the symbolism:

1. The program itself, similar to the one for the memorial service, symbolizes loss/maybe death.
2. The name Elise le Blanc - maybe a clue that Red's "real" daughter who was "lost" or died, was named Elizabeth, and she had blond hair (I've seen le blanc described as "the white" or "blond or fair haired"). And we've seen bubble girl who had blond hair.
3. The date therefore- March 22 1987 - may be the birthdate of his daughter. That would make her 3 years old in March 1990 - which matches the "3" on the years/height chart in the Tacoma Park House. It would also be around the time that Katerina went to Cape May and "killed" herself - roughly two months after the fire, which I think was sometime in late December 1989....and I think whatever happened to Red's family happened after the fire and before he "disappeared" in 1990 (regardless of whether or not he is the real REddington).
4. The ballet performance - I'm not sure how to explain this, but my thoughts are that maybe the school was run by someone Red knew - sister, mother, first "real" wife - none of which we know anything about. And the dancing girl he sees he is imagining, in the sense that, he is thinking or imagining how his little daughter would have looked, had she survived to be old enough to dance in that way. We see "Beth" in the pilot in ballet class - we think its a clue about Liz, but what if its a clue about Red's "real" daughter....

We see a close up of the program Red is holding - but I can't remember if it is visible in the longer view shots. If the program is just a symbol, it may not be visible in both. Of course if the date is not his daughter's birthday then I have no idea what it symbolizes....but I think it means more than just a performance date. Then again what do I know? LOL

IF 3 and 4 are not the case, I still think the program is telling us that Red had a daughter named Elizabeth who died or otherwise became lost to him.

I never noticed the similarity between the ballet program and a program for Sam's memorial service. I wonder if that was on purpose. If Red's first wife and daughter disappeared, this may be Red's way of memorializing them every year. There would never have been a memorial service for them if the bodies were not recovered (to match the Madeleine Pratt story).

I re-watched Mako Tanida last night. What a great episode! Diego's acting was terrific throughout, and the Red/Ressler scenes were especially powerful. Tom was such a stone cold killer, dispatching both Jolene and Cowboy so efficiently. The head in the box and Red's note were both chilling and heartbreaking. Followed up with that dramatic Swan Lake music and Red's imagining of the little ballerina. That was an episode 16, and one of the best of the series. I hope Episode 16 this season will be as good.

I had started thinking Carla and Jennifer were the real wife and daughter - the only ones Raymond Reddington ever had, and that Red is really RR. I was also starting to think Jennifer was ballerina girl because of so many dancing and ballet references in Season 4. And I wondered if maybe her name was Jennifer Elilzabeth Reddington. But I couldn't get past that March 22, 1987 date. Or the 1988 date about Red in the diaper aisle when he met Gary Goddard. Or the height measurements in the Takoma Park house that only went up to age 3. Those darn writers!!!

lara1 · 3/03/2017 3:00 pm

Tuxie400 - thanks for reading my wild theories! LOL

The diaper aisle story for 1998 and the Tacoma Park markings going up to 3 make sense if Red had a small child and that's the "family" that lived at Takoma Park. I suppose that could be Jennifer? She would then be around 20 in 2007. The thing is though I get the impression that whatever it was that happened at the house, there was a little girl around 3 years old who was either taken or killed. That's why Red is staring out the window, and other windows, so many windows!

I once thought that ballerina girl was Red's daughter, either an older version of bubble girl or a second daughter. That didn't add up to the markings at Takoma Park. It is so maddening! LOL

I loved Mako Tanida too. I wonder if there are any other clues elsewhere in the script for that episode? It might be worth looking back, now that we are so much further in the series, something might pop out that we would not have noticed before. I might do that when I have a moment.

Tuxie400 · 3/03/2017 3:24 pm

lara1 - For awhile I thought there were two daughters living in Takoma Park, the three-year-old and and an older girl who played the piano, did ballet, and might be Jennifer. Jennifer, as we know, was in school the day she and Carla were put in Witness Protection, so she has to be 5 or older. For a long time, I believed something bad happened to the younger child and she had either died or was taken. Then, at one point, I decided the 3-year-old was Liz from visits she had with Red's family until she was 4 and Katarina wouldn't let Red see her anymore.

Tatiana · 3/03/2017 3:39 pm

"Then, at one point, I decided the 3-year-old was Liz from visits she had with Red's family until she was 4 and Katarina wouldn't let Red see her anymore. "

Now that could make sense... hmmm. I've often pondered that conundrum, 3 year old at Tacoma House, but then a daughter who is in school winter of 1990. But if he at least partially raised her until she was three, then Elizabeth was taken away, that would give more credence to the fire night,“Did you really think I’d let this happen? That I wouldn’t come for her?”