The Blacklist Refugees » Episode 4.15, "The Apothecary" Discussion

Tuxie400 · 2/25/2017 12:32 am

Trelliswires - Cats have nine lives .... and so does Red?

Honey West · 2/25/2017 12:34 am

Tuxie400 wrote:
Honey West - So the snake venom was behind the amnesia and the vision problems. Interesting. If Red and Dembe had concocted a scheme beforehand perhaps they hadn't anticipated the resulting amnesia. In your research did it cause temporary memory loss, or permanent?

I've been thinking about why Red might have locked his dinner guests in that room. Perhaps the person behind the poisoning was supposed to meet Dembe afterward. But Dembe didn't know who the poisoner was. Red might have thought if he locked all his suspects in that room and no one showed up at Dembe's meeting, the culprit woud be corralled.

Some people reported long term memory problems. One thing I read thought it came about from hypoxia from the respiratory problems or even small strokes from the toxin itself. Sound familiar? The writers probably read the same things.

Red and Dembe locked them up in the kitchen because after Red's accusations he couldn't very well leave them alone to escape while he and Dembe went to get the missing Marvin at his apartment. they broke into the apartment and that's when LouLou saw them and Red politely locked her in the trunk of his car while they drove to Becky's place looking for Marvin. Dembe parked Red's car in the garage, out of sight and probably where LouLou wouldn't be heard, and closed the door. Probably while they started to search Becky's house is when Red got into trouble. They knocked over a bowl of fruit, oranges and bananas as far as I could see, and Red lost his hat. If Red was having trouble breathing it was extra urgent to get him some help, so Dembe decided to take Becky's car, the green station wagon, instead of fiddling around trying to get the garage door open and get Red's car out. The green car was probably just the quickest way to get things done, and maybe he didn't want to take the chance of someone hearing LouLou wherever he had to park.

That's my take on it anyway.

Honey West · 2/25/2017 12:36 am

lara1 wrote:
So here's an interesting possible wrinkle....Aly reposted on her Twitter account someone's photos comparing the truck that Dembe drives in Season 3 (the episode where Mr. Vargas shoots him) to the truck that picks up Kaplan, and I have to agree it looks like the same truck. Might just be a coincidence though - why would the truck that dembe drives have bales of hay in the back? unless its kept somewhere in the countryside.

Begs the question though, did Kaplan call Dembe when she left MM's cabin? Dembe could still be mad at Red for disrespecting Kate even though he knows that she is alive. But then that begs the question, does Dembe know she is alive and kept that from Red? LOL. And has he now gone to get Kaplan to help? just speculation of course.

Wow, so many possibilities with the current plot line!

The only problem is, why would Dembe go tell Liz that Red killed Kate if he knew she was alive?

Tuxie400 · 2/25/2017 12:39 am

Honey West wrote:
The only problem is, why would Dembe go tell Liz that Red killed Kate if he knew she was alive?

Good point!

Tatiana · 2/25/2017 12:39 am

Trelliswires wrote:
I don't know if this represents concrete thinking or this is an example of adherence to the principle of Occam's Razor, but my wife feels there is a simple optimistic interpretation for this episode's first image - the cat.

"Cats have nine lives......"

Love it!!!

Honey West · 2/25/2017 12:44 am

Cats have nine lives. I think you nailed it, trelliswires! Plus we fans had been wondering about Flat Cat, or Cattington as I have seen it called. I couldn't tell if the cat had its red collar on, though. And I think it was a different cat. It's going along like the Hudsons! Someone has to be on litterbox duty unless there is a cat door for it. Then someone has to feed the cat, too, and provide water. I always thought it was Mr. Kaplan's job, but maybe Baz is now in charge of the cat along with his other duties? I wonder if we will get any answers to the Cat Mysteries?

Honey West · 2/25/2017 12:48 am

Tatiana wrote:
Trelliswires wrote:
I don't know if this represents concrete thinking or this is an example of adherence to the principle of Occam's Razor, but my wife feels there is a simple optimistic interpretation for this episode's first image - the cat.

"Cats have nine lives......"
Love it!!!

Or Schrodinger's Cat! Is the cat/Red simultaneously dead and alive?

Tuxie400 · 2/25/2017 12:50 am

Patter and lara1 - So I'm wrong about the doctor giving Red the inhaler. I guess Lou Lou just found what Red was looking for in inhaler form in the drugstore. (Maybe I was poisoned with a toxin that caused slight memory confusion.) But I could have sworn Red was using that inhaler for most of the episode.

Honey West - Thanks for the info on the snake toxin! I like your take on the logic for locking the suspects up while they went in search of Marvin and ended up taking Becky's green station wagon. It makes sense.

About that cat, I didn't think it was the same one either. It had a rounder face and better markings that the original. Maybe that was a nod to the different Hudsons.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (2/25/2017 12:54 am)

Honey West · 2/25/2017 12:51 am

PIANO ALERT!!!!!
lara1, did you catch the piano? In Marvin's apartment when Red and LouLou go back there. Closeup of the piano's keys and then Red comes into focus peeking around the doorway. And then what I suppose is the broken lock on the floor. A few moments later Red is seen reflected in something shiny, like a window or something, before he takes Marvin and Becky's picture off the wall. One of your reflections.

Edited to reflect the change that I found lara1's piano catch waaaay back on page 2 of this thread. (happy)j

Last edited by Honey West (2/25/2017 1:18 am)

Tatiana · 2/25/2017 12:58 am

Tuxie400 wrote:
I took a look at Aly's twitter, and the trucks do look alike. Of course, there is Ford product placement in this show. So that could account for the two Ford trucks. It does seem like an odd coincidence that they are both gray/silver. You couldn't really see who was driving the truck that picked up Mrs. Kaplan. But the hand on the steering wheel looks white - not black - to me.

How did I miss that? Can you link it here?

lara1 · 2/25/2017 1:28 am

Tuxie400 #128. I also thought Red had the inhaler earlier. But when they break into the pharmacy Red asks for the steroids and a bronchialdilator which I assume is the inhaler. We see Lulu give this to him during the subsequent scene in the bedroom in the house.

I know I am now going to be obsessed with the cat - but when the episode opens, it's sitting on a chair ( like a person!!) on what looks to be a blanket or a throw. Lol. It's katarina. ! Haha

Tatiana - I'll post that link to the truck photos tomorrow. It's on ally's twitter not her blog.

But as you guys point out why would dembe tell Liz that red killed kate if dembe knew she was alive. I wonder who else had access to the truck? I think Kaplan knew who picked her up, but I actually didn't think it was dembe. Weren't there similar trucks in the Mato episode? I no longer have that available to look at.

🙃

Last edited by lara1 (2/25/2017 1:31 am)

Honey West · 2/25/2017 1:48 am

Tuxie400 wrote:
Patter and lara1 - So I'm wrong about the doctor giving Red the inhaler. I guess Lou Lou just found what Red was looking for in inhaler form in the drugstore. (Maybe I was poisoned with a toxin that caused slight memory confusion.) But I could have sworn Red was using that inhaler for most of the episode.

Honey West - Thanks for the info on the snake toxin! I like your take on the logic for locking the suspects up while they went in search of Marvin and ended up taking Becky's green station wagon. It makes sense.

About that cat, I didn't think it was the same one either. It had a rounder face and better markings that the original. Maybe that was a nod to the different Hudsons.

Tuxie, it looked like a younger cat to me. Maybe it is aging backwards?
You weren't wrong about the inhaler, he had it when he went back to his flat to make his phone calls, after leaving the Post Office.

I also noticed that Liz was in the elevator with him when the door opened. So she must have picked him up from the gym/triage cube He must have taken cabs to get to the flat and then to the hospital and then back to the gym/triage cube where he hot wired the green car.

Tuxie400 · 2/25/2017 11:16 am

Honey West wrote:
Tuxie, it looked like a younger cat to me. Maybe it is aging backwards?
You weren't wrong about the inhaler, he had it when he went back to his flat to make his phone calls, after leaving the Post Office.

I also noticed that Liz was in the elevator with him when the door opened. So she must have picked him up from the gym/triage cube He must have taken cabs to get to the flat and then to the hospital and then back to the gym/triage cube where he hot wired the green car.

Honey West - The cat aging backwards. LOL! Thanks for letting me know I wasn't totally wrong about that inhaler. I just assumed he got the inhaler from the doctor because he had it so early in the episode. But maybe he had pre-existing allergies, and already had the inhaler at home. Could the inhaler be the source of the toxin? That might clear Dembe if the delivery wasn't in the scotch.

Thanks for pointing out Liz was in the elevator with Red. I think you're right. When Red couldn't reach Dembe, he must have called Liz to pick him up. I was kind of miffed that she didn't show more concern in the Post Office scene. But her verbal worried expressions must have come when she picked him up. Her facial expression was grim at the Post Office, and so was Ressler's.

Tuxie400 · 2/25/2017 11:42 am

lara1 - Yes, I think the truck Mato was driving when he T-boned Red's Agnes-mobile was a silver gray one too. I don't have access to the episode anymore either. But that's what I remember.

lara1 · 2/25/2017 12:17 pm

Honey West #132 and Tuxie400 #133 - thanks fro clarifying that about the inhaler! that was my first take, then on re-watching I somehow missed that or thought that Red when back in his flat was taking more pills like he did in the post office. So the doctor gave him that initial inhaler as we didn't see Red go to a pharmacy until later.

Back to my theory then that its the inhaler maybe and not the scotch:

Am I correct in thinking that while the Post Office found out what toxin was made by the Apothecary for Red, the only evidence we have the specific toxin was given to Red is by the ICU doctor. in other words, Red doesn't go to a real hospital so there was no one to confirm the ICU diagnosis that it was the Apothecary's toxin that affected him.

The other thing that doesn't fit for me with the poison is that the other examples were all slow-kill poisons, and Red himself says in the Post Office that is what the Apothecary specializes in. It is possible that Red drank it over time from the half empty bottle of Scotch, but his symptoms came on very abruptly and violently. Wouldn't he have exhibited prior more gradual symptoms? Then again we don't know his medical history or what the toxin could have been....

Then we know that the Apothecary made that inhaler mist to help keep his wife immobilized.....

Them we have that doctor acting in a very cagey manner...

So I am thinking, back to my theory about framing Dembe, suppose that apothecary toxin was never in fact used but was a set up to frame Dembe, torture Red, so Red would think it was Dembe, possibly kill him only to find out he was innocent? To make Red think it was him and for him to go after Dembe, or even, for Dembe to become collateral damage in a FBI hunt or something? And then Red finding out he had wrongly blamed him.

Also - Colleen, that would work for your theory - how about if that Red and Dembe ordered that toxin but never used it, used the milder one, then perpetuated by the doctor, who was in on it? Although, that doesn't explain why they then broke into Marvin's apt or needed the green station wagon...

Not that I want these eventual outcomes, but I just don't get how it could be Dembe when he drove Red to the ICU. Unless, he changed his mind, or was framed.....

Of course if they test the Scotch and the poison is in it, most of the above no longer applies!

lara1 · 2/25/2017 12:23 pm

Tatiana wrote:
Tuxie400 wrote:
I took a look at Aly's twitter, and the trucks do look alike. Of course, there is Ford product placement in this show. So that could account for the two Ford trucks. It does seem like an odd coincidence that they are both gray/silver. You couldn't really see who was driving the truck that picked up Mrs. Kaplan. But the hand on the steering wheel looks white - not black - to me.

How did I miss that? Can you link it here?

Hi Tatiana, here is what Aly retweeted about the two trucks. Hope this works, I'm not very good with capturing this kind of stuff....
pic.twitter.com/YjV0BVZEoq

Tatiana · 2/25/2017 12:29 pm

Lara - you linked it perfectly! Thank you.

One person commented that they used the same 'prop'. I've noticed that sometimes it looks like TBL uses the same things in different settings. The one that comes most to mind are the gold colored kind of ladder back chairs for weddings or receptions. The setting where Liz kills The Director and the restaurant where Red delivers his "I smell death all around me"

I'm going to have to look closer.

lara1 · 2/25/2017 12:33 pm

Tatiana wrote:
Lara - you linked it perfectly! Thank you.

One person commented that they used the same 'prop'. I've noticed that sometimes it looks like TBL uses the same things in different settings. The one that comes most to mind are the gold colored kind of ladder back chairs for weddings or receptions. The setting where Liz kills The Director and the restaurant where Red delivers his "I smell death all around me"

I'm going to have to look closer.

Tatiana, I agree it could just be a re-used prop. One never knows. then again, that truck scene was such an important one. LOL. eight weeks!!

Last edited by lara1 (2/25/2017 12:33 pm)

lara1 · 2/25/2017 12:43 pm

Back to the truck just for a minute - several of you pointed out why would Dembe tell Liz that Red had killed Kaplan if he knew Kaplan was alive?

That's a very good point and I agree. But, consider this - is there a possibility that Dembe said that because for all intents and purposes, Red did kill Kate, Dembe is worried about him, but to tell Liz that Kate survived was too big a risk? Dembe may know that no one can know that Kate survived, for her own protection. And he may have been right, because, predictably, Liz told Red not too long after that she knew he had killed Kate.
So Dembe couldn't risk anyone knowing especially Liz. But he didn't know who else to turn to to try to get help for Red.

Then again, maybe not! I actually don't think it was Dembe who picked up Kaplan, but it is possible....

Last edited by lara1 (2/25/2017 12:44 pm)

Honey West · 2/25/2017 1:14 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
Honey West wrote:
Tuxie, it looked like a younger cat to me. Maybe it is aging backwards?
You weren't wrong about the inhaler, he had it when he went back to his flat to make his phone calls, after leaving the Post Office.

I also noticed that Liz was in the elevator with him when the door opened. So she must have picked him up from the gym/triage cube He must have taken cabs to get to the flat and then to the hospital and then back to the gym/triage cube where he hot wired the green car.
Honey West - The cat aging backwards. LOL! Thanks for letting me know I wasn't totally wrong about that inhaler. I just assumed he got the inhaler from the doctor because he had it so early in the episode. But maybe he had pre-existing allergies, and already had the inhaler at home. Could the inhaler be the source of the toxin? That might clear Dembe if the delivery wasn't in the scotch.

Thanks for pointing out Liz was in the elevator with Red. I think you're right. When Red couldn't reach Dembe, he must have called Liz to pick him up. I was kind of miffed that she didn't show more concern in the Post Office scene. But her verbal worried expressions must have come when she picked him up. Her facial expression was grim at the Post Office, and so was Ressler's.

Anyway, about the inhaler. Red definitely took the bottle of pills with him from the mobile triage cube. He even jiggled it so we heard the sound and I think that was on purpose. Subtle, but a clue anyway. We don't see an inhaler until he's back at his flat. That could be another clue that he got it there. He probably has a lot of emergency stuff stashed there that we have no idea about. Besides a cat. Maybe he is allergic to cats? I know lots of people who are allergic to cats but have them anyway. They just deal with it using whatever allergy meds they use, including inhalers if the allergic reaction is bad for some reason. Plus Red doesn't seem to stay in the flat for long periods. Remember in the Pilot he said he never sleeps in the same place more than two nights in a row. And later we learn that the Apothecary uses pre-existing conditions and the person's own body chemistry to create his potions. Well, then, if Red is allergic to cats, for instance, the potion could have been aimed at triggering a severe allergic reaction. And maybe that's why we saw the cat so prominently featured at the beginning. We were all so happy to see the return of Flat Cat that we didn't even think it was related to an evil plot to kill Red. Wasn't there another episode where they saw cat hairs on someone's clothes and it was a clue? Or am I thinking of another show altogether? LOL!

Anyway, the question is who knows he is allergic to cats and passed along that info to whoever is after Red? And yes, maybe the initial toxin was in the scotch, but the inhaler was actually making things worse, like with Panetti's accountant. Or the inhaler was the culprit all along because Red was feeling a little wheezy while hanging out with his cat earlier before his dinner "party". Testing the bottle of scotch would give us the answer to that. And the Apothecary has already said that he is hired anonymously through the Dark Web. So unless Aram can do his magic, that's a dead end.

Edited to note that maybe whoever is behind this whole thing has known Red for so long that they already knew about his cat allergy. He didn't have to have been recently betrayed by someone. And of course, we all know Dembe didn't do it.

Last edited by Honey West (2/25/2017 1:17 pm)