The Blacklist Refugees » The Blacklist Episode 4.4 "Gaia" Discussion

Danamee · 10/15/2016 2:31 am

Hi everyone!

I'm new to the forum and just wanted to say hello and introduce myself, before I start posting :-). I was following the blacklist support group since spring and I'm sharing your passion for the Blacklist! Up to now I was kind of a blind passenger, reading the discussions about the current epsiodes, spoilers, etc. I'm quite happy that the forum has found a new location and I can continue to do so. But I also thought, that I should appreciate it by registering this time and maybe join the discussions! I'm based in Europe, that is I live in Vienna, the capital city of Austria. So, I need to wait several hours impatiently for being able to stream the latest episode and therefore I try to avoid to reading your posts until I can watch ;-).

As for the latest episode: I somehow thought, that Red might have known, that there was a blacklister around the acre where he shot Kate? I'm not fond of the idea, but maybe he didn't want her to die, but be captured by the survivalist. That would explain the rather poorly aimed shot. Although I hope it's not that way, as it would be a really, really cruel thing to plan for Kate!

Another thought I had a few episodes ago about Kate: what if she would be actually related to Katarina, not Red? Eg. a sister? Depending on the quality of their relationship, it would somehow explain her devotion to Agnes (and Liz). But that's really just wild speculation :-D.

Ok - that's it for now! Looking forward to participate more actively and read more about your thoughts!

Tabasko · 10/15/2016 8:24 am

Hi, Danamee! Welcome. Thank you for the intro. We are happy you decided to chime in! Welcome, also, to David. And I think I missed saying hi to Lake GIrl and CngRed, so hi!

Trelliswires and some others, those are interesting points about The Hunter and Kate, I also did notice he said "those men" and so on, but he also said "What happened out there, young lady?" earlier, as if he did not know. Maybe he heard the shot and came upon Red and Dembe leaving.

Honestly, my favorite lines of the evening came from Dembe:
"Your release is off. Keep your elbows in."
Dembe bowls in his spare time.

I also had some questions about Odette. Why is she so interested in Kirk being alive? What is he doing for her? I also did notice they both referred to Agnes as "the girl" and Kirk didn't say "my granddaughter". Weird to me, although he was holding her at one point. He was extremely cruel to Liz.

lake girl, I 100% share your feelings about the Agnes story needing to come to a close.

Oh, and nice avatars! lara1, I am glad it worked out and yours is cool!

I also agree Red's story at the start was really out of place.It came off to me as a poor way on his part to keep things kind of normal, but it failed. As if he were trying to be emotionally detached or something.

Last edited by Tabasko (10/15/2016 7:09 pm)

David · 10/15/2016 8:31 am

Danamee, welcome! Very interesting thought about Kate's possible relationship to Katarina. I don't know any Russian, but now I wonder if "Mr. Kaplan" roughly sounds like any Russian name. "Kate" already sounds like a nickname for "Katarina".

lara1 · 10/15/2016 9:04 am

On my post #74 I forgot to add another observation:

4. The blacklister's wife/ex-wife - she has long, Katarina-colored hair and is upset with him when he comes to the house - she has a restraining order against him. Just wonder if they are trying to draw a vague parallel to Katarina/Rostov. In any event, it is another mention of one of the series' themes.

Tabs and Honey West - thanks for the help with getting my Avatar up and running! And there are some really interesting ones starting to appear. Tuxie400 - aww that is a really nice picture of the cat.

I had some thoughts on Red's stories that he tells to Liz and which seem out of place (like the one several have commented on at the beginning of the episode). Sometimes I wonder if that is a way he tries to calm Liz when she is stressed. I remember the "hideous" fishes when they were about to possibly be blown up in the boiler room of Luther Braxton and the "gypsy sea woman" story (another diving story) when he was about to be re-arrested by the FBI after Liz betrays him and is then stressed as she knows she made a mistake. There may be others. I'm not saying his storytelling works (!) but those stories do have a sort of sing-song musical quality about them - and in this episode Red's dialogue with Skylar's mother is about children's ability to mix up the senses - to sing art or paint music, as it were. Just a thought. I's probably just Red being Red and telling other story! LOL

Tatiana · 10/15/2016 9:12 am

Kaplan is a Jewish surname, predominantly found in Ashkenazi Jews, many of whom are from eastern Europe. However, I would not read too much into the origin of the name. It seems clear it's taken from the HItchcock film, North by Northwest in which a
"Madison Avenue advertising man Roger Thornhill finds himself thrust into the world of spies when he is mistaken for a man by the name of George Kaplan" (Mr. Kaplan)

lara1 · 10/15/2016 9:13 am

I forgot to add in #85 above, Red told stories to liz when they were on the run in Season 3 also. the one that comes to mind is in the Troll Farmer when they are hiding out in the "secret" basement underneath the bar and Liz is very (understandably) stressed. Red tells her a story. Makes me wonder whether he told her stories as a child. Just a thought. Then again they could just be stories he likes telling!

lake girl · 10/15/2016 9:38 am

Welcome David and Danamee. Enjoyed reading your posts
Tabs, "Dembe bowls in his spare time". Lololol

Tabasko · 10/15/2016 10:06 am

lara1 wrote:
I had some thoughts on Red's stories that he tells to Liz and which seem out of place (like the one several have commented on at the beginning of the episode). Sometimes I wonder if that is a way he tries to calm Liz when she is stressed. I remember the "hideous" fishes when they were about to possibly be blown up in the boiler room of Luther Braxton and the "gypsy sea woman" story (another diving story) when he was about to be re-arrested by the FBI after Liz betrays him and is then stressed as she knows she made a mistake. There may be others. I'm not saying his storytelling works (!) but those stories do have a sort of sing-song musical quality about them - and in this episode Red's dialogue with Skylar's mother is about children's ability to mix up the senses - to sing art or paint music, as it were. Just a thought. I's probably just Red being Red and telling other story! LOL

lara1: That is a good point.

Tabasko · 10/15/2016 10:10 am

Tatiana wrote:
Kaplan is a Jewish surname, predominantly found in Ashkenazi Jews, many of whom are from eastern Europe. However, I would not read too much into the origin of the name. It seems clear it's taken from the HItchcock film, North by Northwest in which a
"Madison Avenue advertising man Roger Thornhill finds himself thrust into the world of spies when he is mistaken for a man by the name of George Kaplan" (Mr. Kaplan)

Yes, that is the origin of the name. It's been confirmed in a few places, including some Blu-Ray extras!

Cate · 10/15/2016 11:11 am

Danamee: I have wondered whether Kate was related to Dom because of Red's conversations with him ("Dom, you still have family" , to which he replies "Who? The Baby?" ... and later when he says "Dom, you've always had a good reason to walk out the door" to which he looked uncomfortable). I don't think Kate is Katerina's mother, but these recent sacrifices make the aunt/great-aunt theory tempting to consider.

Maybe Kate will tell MM bits of her story as she recovers.

One Paul · 10/15/2016 11:44 am

Tabasko wrote:
.......but he also said "What happened out there, young lady?" earlier, as if he did not know. Maybe he heard the shot and came upon Red and Dembe leaving.

Honestly, my favorite lines of the evening came from Dembe:
"Your release is off. Keep you elbows in."
Dembe bowls in his spare time.

I also did notice they both referred to Agnes as "the girl" and Kirk didn't say "my granddaughter". Weird to me, although he was holding her at one point.

I noticed that, too.
LOL.
And "weird to me"-- word!

I still am going back to when Red told Kirk something like "she wasn't yours to raise" in regards to baby Liz. That does not sound something a person would say to a bio dad, even if he stunk as a dad. I don't know, but I don't think Kirk is Liz's father still, and Red knows it. I'm not even 100% sure Kirk thinks he is Liz's father, except for the bio need for Agnes. Can't figure that out.

I thought Mountain Man came off as a benevolent recluse for the most part. Just not very skilled socially. Maybe he just chained up poor Mr. Kaplan to keep her from hurting herself??? Wishful thinking.

It's interesting to consider, but I don't think Red was thinking MM would be out there. I think he meant to shoot Kate and have her RIP there in Heavenly Acre. I don't think it was a plan and MM is a BLer or anything.

Tabs, we should make a list of Dembe's hobbies---- crossword puzzles and bowling. He would have a hilarious online dating profile.

Tuxie400 · 10/15/2016 11:50 am

Danamee - Welcome! I enjoyed your post and hope you will keep participating in the discussions. We keep discussing the episodes for several days, so feel free to jump in any time.

Tabs and lara1 - I think both of you offer insightful opinions about Red's stories. The stories are part of their work relationship ritual and would convey Red's desire for things to be back to normal. They may also be a device to help Lizzie de-stress. Many of Re'sd best tales come at the most stressful times, and I usually love them. Every episode has at least one, and there weren't many places to fit one in during this episode.

Honey West · 10/15/2016 12:57 pm

Danamee, welcome! I have been to Vienna, although it was many years ago. I danced my first waltz there. Lovely city with so many places of interest. It always makes me think of another great film The Third Man and now I can't get that theme song out of my head. LOL! Please feel free to jump in with comments anytime! Looking forward to more.
I am also a bit time challenged out here in California, three hours behind most everyone, but it hasn't gotten in my way yet!

Tatiana · 10/15/2016 2:41 pm

Mountain Man: my husband and I thought it was more of a Hansel and Gretl story, he wants to fatten Kate up for feasting... there were ominous signs prior to seeing the chain. I gasped when he asked if anyone was coming back for her and she nodded "no". My hubby didn't understand. I thought it was better if he thought they were coming back so he would be more inclined to let her go or at least keep her safe. Now that he knows no one's coming for her, he can do whatever he wants... shivers!!!!

Bowling: Dembe is secretly from Wisconsin??? It really is true, We've even had multiple bowling birthday parties. In fact, I was at a bowling alley less than a month ago. Jellybean seemed far more relaxed and funny this time, probably because he's not at the DMV!

Tuxie400 · 10/15/2016 4:20 pm

Tatiana - I got a Hansel and Gretel vibe with MM too. Maybe his plan is to fatter her up for the winter.

Trelliswires · 10/15/2016 5:15 pm

I don't think Hunter wants to keep Kate as a cute "little girl." If his intentions are amorous he would clean her glasses so she can see him as the desirable hunk.

Tuxie400 · 10/15/2016 6:27 pm

Trelliswires wrote:
I don't think Hunter wants to keep Kate as a cute "little girl." If his intentions are amorous he would clean her glasses so she can see him as the desirable hunk.

LOL! She may think he's cuter than he really is, since her glasses are broken.

Big Badd Bazzer · 10/15/2016 7:49 pm

I thought the Mountain Man had a bit of an Andy Griffith (ie. Andy Taylor, Sherrif of Mayerry, Benjamin Matlock, Matock) quality - both in his visage and certainly his voice.

Even in her damaged state - Kate is sizing up this big boy, profiling him if you will. Waiting for the right time to engage him in banter (future episode for sure) and then to secure the premises (ie. ending him)

She'll do it with or without a team.immo

lara1 · 10/15/2016 8:50 pm

Symbols and Dialog on the Re-Watch

Here are themes, possible symbols and interesting dialog points on my re-watch.

Cape May House?
Did anyone notice that the scene with Tom and his crew, just before they run through the greenhouse=like tunnel to the house - is, I believe, an exact or nearly exact shot from Cape May of part of the Cape May house? Like its kind of a flashback to that scene, in order to maybe tell us something? There is a camera shot of the roof of the house, bathed in moonlight, a full moon, mist, and the general glow of moonlight - also 2 dormer windows in silhouette against the roof. If I am not mistaken, that is the same shot (or very similar) that occurs in Cape May just before/as Red and Katarina go outside to begin their takedown of the intruders.
And the shot of the side of the house in Ep 4 looks a bit like the Cape May house also. I don't think they are the same house or meant to be the same, I am thinking that perhaps the events portrayed in Cape May occurred at the house that Tom's crew storms. One of the crew mentioned it was on an island so presumably surrounded by water. Anyone else see this?

The Red Plaid Shirts
This was the second episode in a row where the blacklister wore a red plaid shirt, very prominently. Also Mountain Main is wearing a red plaid shirt. Does this mean that we are close to finding out the identity of the man in the plaid shirt on fire night? Or - a clue that Mountain Man will turn out to be a blacklister (more on that in the cabin comments below).

Mirrors
I wrote about this under the general discussion "mirrors" topic today, but I'll add two things:
First, on my re-watch I noticed that in the cabin, Kaplan's glasses first appear to be on a table on which there is a small standing mirror.
And - I do think they are leading up to something with the mirrors. They have used them throughout the series, got really creative with mirrors/reflections in Season 3 (Troll Farmer, Red's reflection in the lids of grand pianos, etc), but I don't think they have yet shown us fractured reflections unit now in this Season. Its like they are progressing the imagery. I do think its a lead into something.

Themes
These are all familiar - energy/gas/nuclear/explosion/ifre; spousal abuse; children/harm to/cruelty to/chilfren; water (the house is on an island, Liz studies the tidal charts), of course the river; revenge

Interesting Dialog - Kaplan?
Did anyone catch when Glenn said the following to Red in the second scene in the bowling alley:
Thanks to your better half, we swept the tourney. Elbow in, release point. Phew! Sweet as a sister's kiss.

So - Glenn calls Dembe Red's better half. Isn't that what Red at one point had called Kaplan?

The reference to a sister's kiss - reminds me of when Kaplan kissed Red in the ICU in Leonard Caul. And there are some who have thought that Kaplan was either a former wife of Red or Red's sister.

I think this is a clue of some sort but not sure what it =12pxmeans? That we will get a reveal about Kaplan? that she is neither of those things?

Other Dialog
Baby split - Glenn - talking about how he missed the "baby split" and they lost the bowling competition. Hmmm - baby split - is that two identical but separated bowling pins???

Several repetitions of former dialog in this episode = "You have to leave now"; "we are this close" ; then Red to Liz: "We are getting close, Lizzie. It won't be long now," words to that effect - as he told her in Season 3 when he was working to exonerate her through the blacklisters.

But maybe most important of all - Liz in the car with Red, lamenting over how she could not keep Agnes safe -
she says how she should be able to tell her child that "everything is going to be okay," which are the words Red tells her, I think, back in Season one's scene with the music box. And those lines I believe were the same that Sam used to tell her when he hummed the song to her as a child, which Red is kind of repeating to her in the music box scene. In the current episode, Liz saying that line causes Red to hold her hand and look visibly upset. I think this is there to tell us something - not sure what though!

And - Kirk's doctor isn't sure, or isn't sure yet - if Agnes is a genetic match? hmmmm It got me wondering whether Kirk in fact knows that she is not and is playing this cat and mouse game to exact revenge on Reddington. maybe not, but who knows.

------------------
The Cabin - I keep trying to see if Mountain Man has some weirdly incongruous stuff in his cabin (like a security system or computer equipment) but they have only shown the cabin at night when everything is in shadow. I did see what look like three red vertical box files or binders in a crate or cabinet, on the floor. That's odd if that's what they are.

So is Mountain Man a blacklister who took himself off the grid a while ago -? One Paul and BBB - when I first thought of this, I didn't mean someone that Red knew about and would send to get Kaplan or punish her. What I meant is that Mountain Man may turn out to be a blacklister - Red doesn't know he is out there nor did Red send him. But it would be a real mean plot twist if it turns out that is what Mountain Man is. Then again, he doesn't have to be a Blacklister - he's creepy enough as he is!

I apologize in advance if the type size on this goes very small - it got messed up and I can't seem to fix it!.....

Last edited by lara1 (10/15/2016 9:17 pm)

Tuxie400 · 10/15/2016 10:50 pm

lara1 - I totally missed the similarities to the Cape May Inn. The only thing that sticks in my mind are the double greenhouses. It's interesting that the episode started with the blacklister tending a garden and then we get these greenhouses. Something is growing in the this plot, but what I haven't a clue.

Red plaid shirts - I did notice in Ep. 3 that Johan was wearing a red plaid shirt exactly like the ones worn by the intruders in Cape May and the fire memories. Mountain man's is more Christmassy - red and green plaid. And his shack really looks likes a hunting cabin. I can't imagine him wintering there.

Mirrors and reflections: I missed the triple window pane reflection of Kirk and Agnes until I saw your post and went back to look. Could that be some kind of clue about three men and three babies?

Dialog: Glen's dialog stuck out to me too. I immediately thought of Kaplan when he called Dembe Red's better half. The line about "sweet as a sister's kiss" does conjure up images of Kaplan kissing Red in Leonard Caul. We have speculated about her being a sister. Wouldn't it be wild if she does turn out to be Red's sibling?

Agnes as matching stem-cell donor: I did some research about what it takes to be a matching stem-cell donor. A special blood test called HLA typing must be done to determine a match. A person's siblings are the most likely familial matches. Parents and chldren may be a match, but the chances are low.

Odette: I wonder if Odette is Kirk's daughter, who has been ruled out as match?

Parallels: Kaplan and Anslo Garrick both betrayed Red and were shot in the face.
Skylar's disfigurement is on the same side of his face as Kaplan's wounds.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (10/16/2016 2:39 pm)