The Blacklist Refugees » Episode 07:08

Eastcoast · 11/24/2019 1:21 am

KathyN, yea, she's a fruitcake!

I think Liz has finally caught on to something isn't right with the wicked witch next door.

Leaving all options open, It crossed my mind if any of these things might have to do with the Hobson's Choice?
Not sure how it would fit, but why did she feel like she was being sacrificed? She mentioned that Dom thought he was protecting Liz. Was there a choice to be made in having KR killed so they would never bother Liz? That they would just go away if they thought she was dead?

Did anyone understand was KR was saying in the beginning of the promo?

Honey West · 11/24/2019 4:56 am

Finally got to watch. Had to stream since my DVR didn’t record the one broadcast. So, of course, no preview, if there was one.

Never quite know what you will get with a JB penned episode.

I think the Red and Glen conflict was to underscore just how important Ilya is to Red and to remind Glen that Red is Red and poking at him is a very dangerous game, no matter how much he lets you get away with. Never forget who works for whom. When Glen came around and took Red seriously, he got things done. And Red apologized and Glen got back to the reality of the relationship and was okay with it.

I, too, am glad that Liz has finally figured out something is not right about Maddy. I guess when your kid starts drawing pictures of dead bodies it should ring some alarm bells. I hope she collected the hair and blood samples from the mirror.

EC, I agree about looking at this Belgrade incident as maybe having something to do with the Hobson’s Choice. Perhaps a revisit of Cape May and the words that Red puts in Katarina's mouth and his own musings at that time, in light of what we've been learning about Ilya, Katarina, Belgrade, etc. is worth looking at again. And don’t forget that Luther Braxton was there as well. And the attempted memory recovery he orchestrated with Liz is echoed by what Katarina seems to be wanting to try with Ilya.

Let’s see, it’s already been noted that Katarina used the name Masha this time and keeps calling Ilya "Ilya". When talking to Ilya she referred to Red as "Reddington", don’t know if that’s significant, but they both normally called him Raymond up until now. I mean, presumably they both know who he really is, so if he’s not really Raymond Reddington, why don’t they call him something else when it’s just the two of them chatting and torturing each other? I know, I know, because that would give it away to the audience before they are ready. LOL!

She was sure upset when he tried to kill himself. She can sure work herself up to being able to be cold about maybe having to kill him, but she sure still has feelings for him. Surprised me.

I think the simplest version of this whole story is we have these two people who have been hunted and on the run most of their adult lives. Both of them are starting to get frayed along the edges and are nearing the end of their race. It’s going to be a matter of who can hold on and hold out the longest to see who "wins". Talking about RR and KR here.

Oh, and just as I said we hadn’t had a chess reference lately, voila!, a chess game appears.

Tuxie400 · 11/24/2019 9:47 am

Eastcoast - I thought when Ilya got those shoelaces going, he was going to use them to escape somehow. I never suspected the suicide attempt.

Eastcoast and Honeywest - Belgrade could be tied to the Hobson's Choice. Who knows? I thought Katerina's tears were not because she cared so much about Ilya, but because if he died, she couldn't get her answers.

Honey West · 11/24/2019 1:02 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
Eastcoast and Honeywest - Belgrade could be tied to the Hobson's Choice. Who knows? I thought Katerina's tears were not because she cared so much about Ilya, but because if he died, she couldn't get her answers.

Definitely could be both, I think. Of course what percentage of her feelings is for which, I couldn't say. But I somehow think if it was all over getting her answers, that she would have shown a little anger and frustration along with the tears. I feel sorry for Katarina. She's been controlled, used, and abused all her life by the men around her.

Eastcoast · 11/24/2019 2:32 pm

I thought she was crying for both reasons.
In the first few seconds I thought it was only because she wouldn't get the information. Then she was almost pleading for an answer as to why he would and die for him after all they had been through. He was saying he was sorry. It was a sad scene.
There is something we don't know yet as to why they can't tell her what it is.
There is something to be said about her statement of sacrifice. I guess we need to some more background on what happened.

Eastcoast · 11/24/2019 2:36 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
Eastcoast - I thought when Ilya got those shoelaces going, he was going to use them to escape somehow. I never suspected the suicide attempt.

Eastcoast and Honeywest - Belgrade could be tied to the Hobson's Choice. Who knows? I thought Katerina's tears were not because she cared so much about Ilya, but because if he died, she couldn't get her answers.

One of the reasons they take shoe laces from peoples shoes when they are locked up is so they don't try to hang themselves. Sad but true.

Honey West · 11/24/2019 3:40 pm

Eastcoast wrote:
I thought she was crying for both reasons.
In the first few seconds I thought it was only because she wouldn't get the information. Then she was almost pleading for an answer as to why he would and die for him after all they had been through. He was saying he was sorry. It was a sad scene.
There is something we don't know yet as to why they can't tell her what it is.
There is something to be said about her statement of sacrifice. I guess we need to some more background on what happened.

Oh yeah, you reminded me that she said she didn’t know why he would sacrifice himself for Red's secrets. It seems he is more loyal to Red than Katarina regarding whatever this deep dark secret is and he would kill himself rather than risk revealing it under torture or memory mining. I guess he figures they would get it from him that way.

KathyN · 11/24/2019 6:05 pm

IW: I agree. From the setup she used with the Illusionist it's clear money isn't an issue and she has all the resources she needs to hold a prisoner. Bringing Ilya to Liz's building, surrounded by FBI, with Liz across the hall is more evidence of how unhinged she is. And how did she get his unconscious body past the lookouts outside anyway?

EC: I agree about Park. I'm willing to give her more time to gel with the post office team but right now I don't like her character.

HW: I agree that the scenes with Glen were to underscore the urgency for Red. And the scenes did not bother me, I thought he was pretty much true to form in a crisis situtation and Glen was kind of back burnering it to do his casino night. And I agree that Ilya is afraid his secrets will get away from him, ie: who Red really is, where Katarina is, and if the answer is the same

KathyN · 11/24/2019 6:06 pm

My theory from all that's been said so far, as I do not believe this woman is Liz's mom.

It looks like this "Katarina" was recruited by Dom and Ilya to work with our Red on some mission in Belgrade to impersonate the real Katarina Rostova and something went wrong and she has been on the run ever since. Maybe they didn't explain to her the dangers involved impersonating the real Katarina, that there was a bounty of her head, and that it wasn't as simple as they led her to believe when they recruited her. Evidently they told her it was needed to protect Masha from the people who may be hunting her, possibly playing on her maternal instincts (as she has alluded to having her own family at one time).

As "Katarina" thinks Red is the real Reddington, she must have met him after the fire, when our Red (the impersonator) was Reddington. I don't think she knows he's an imposter. He wasn't KGB, she wouldn't have met him before, not until she was introduced to him by Dom and Ilya, probably in Belgrade. She isn't acting like she is in on the secret of who Red is, she acts like she believes him to be the one and only Raymond Reddington. [Alternatively, Red is the original Reddington so she's not wrong (and she is unaware of his tooth being found with skeletal bones leading Liz to think he's an imposter)].

To get the Townsed Directive off of her, she needs to produce the real Katarina Rostova. The only way to get to her would be through the people who recruited her in the first place to take on the persona: Raymond Reddington, Dom and Ilya. They must have told her in Belgrade that the real Katarina was alive. She got close to Liz to either kidnap her or Agnes if it came to that to get answers from Red, but also to suss out how much Liz knew about her mother, whether they were in touch, etc. She ruled out Liz as a source rather quickly when Liz told her she hasn't seen or spoken to her mother in years.

The lengths Ilya will go to to protect Red points to "Redarina". Katarina is the one Ilya would give his life to protect. And they have already established that Ilya and ourRed are childhood friends, which fits with Dom's description of them as well (if that part of his story was true).

Last edited by KathyN (11/24/2019 6:07 pm)

KathyN · 11/24/2019 6:09 pm

RELEVANT BELGRADE DIALOGUE:

FROM THIS EPISODE:

KR: I would have done anything for you, Ilya. When you asked me to help you in Belgrade, you knew I'd say yes. Never even occurred to me that you would betray me.
I: Listen. Dominic thought ....
KR: I know what Dominic thought. And he's paying for his sins. And if he survives, I'll find him again and finish the job. At least he believed he was protecting Masha. But you you were my friend.
I: There are things about this you can't possibly understand.
KR: Oh, but I want to understand. In fact, I insist. I've thought a lot about why you chose me as the lamb you could take to slaughter. You thought I was weak the prey and not the predator. Ask Reddington how he feels about me now.

KR: How could you do this? How could you possibly be willing to die in order to protect him?! After all we've been through, Ilya.
I: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
KR: Why won't you help me? Why?

FROM PREVIOUS EPISODES:

KR: Everything I cared about died that day.
RR: I didn't want that.
KR: I'd made a life for myself, a family. You blew all that up.
RR: I didn't know. Dom promised me no one would get hurt. Said he loved his child and just wanted her to be safe.
KR: Do I seem safe to you? Hunted, chased into the shadows.
RR: I can't give you what you want.
KR: What I want is my family back. No one can give me that back. Least of all you. You can't give me what I want. But you can give me what I need. You want me to believe you had nothing to do with Belgrade.
RR: I didn't.

RR: She knows you tried to kill her, Dom. She wants answers, but she also wants revenge. You set her up, betrayed her

FROM LUTHER BRAXTON :

LB: Do you think this is something that snuck up on me? After Belgrade?
RR: Ah. Belgrade. Boy, things got nasty in Belgrade, didn't they?
LB: It's funny-- up until then, I was aimless, just an ordinary thief, but after Belgrade, I became known as the man who bested the great Ray Reddington.
RR: You didn't best me, Luther. You butchered and clawed your way into my pockets, and innocent people died in the process.
LB: You're such a snob, Red. Always considered yourself above the fray with your handmade suits and your fancy wine, your private jets. Do you even drive? You got everybody convinced you're so hard, Red, but I know better. You're soft.
RR: You're not getting the Fulcrum.
LB: And how you gonna stop me, Red? Bore me to death with Beethoven? Put me to sleep quoting Nietzsche? Come on. We both know that in order to stop me, you got to have balls. You got to run the gauntlet. And after Belgrade, well that's just not gonna happen. So, tell me-- how are you gonna stop me, Red?

LB: This is just like Belgrade, huh, boy-o? Whatever you want, I get.
RR: This is nothing like Belgrade.
LB: What was the name of that kid? One you had running point? Wish I could've been there when you opened that door found him hanging by your necktie.
RR: His name was Henkel.
LB: Henkel! That's right. Kid was a talker.

LB: Maybe you're too late, boy-o. Just like you were for Henkel in Belgrade.
RR: Can I let you in on a little secret about Belgrade? I barely remember it. I'd forgotten about the deutsche marks, and I don't think I ever even met Henkel. Tell you the truth, I don't think his name was Henkel. I don't know who the hell he was, but this, this I can promise you, I will always remember.

Tuxie400 · 11/25/2019 9:47 am

KathyN - My theory at this point matches yours right down the line. I agree that this woman is not Liz's mom or Dom's daughter but she was recruited to lead the hunters away from the real Katarina.. She has many things in common with Lotte/Katarina. She was a smart and resourceful operative. Fakerina does believe Red is the real Raymond Reddington, which means she likely met him after the fire and the surgeries.

Ilya's willingness to sacrifice himself for Red is most definitely a Redarina clue. We know from Rassvet that Ilya was willing to sacrifice himself for Katarina. There does seem to have been a close relationship between Fakerina and Ilya though. Maybe she was his Gina Zanetakos.

Honey West · 11/25/2019 2:33 pm

Thanks for gathering up the Belgrade-related dialogue, KathyN. It's good to have it all together in one place.

My thoughts about Katarina are a little different. I think she's the real deal. Or at least she's as much the real deal as Red is Raymond Reddington. He's more Raymond Reddington than Raymond Reddington ever was. They made references early on that Katarina Rostova was an amalgamation of possibly several women and Red himself even said he "knew her as Katarina Rostova, one of her many names."

I think if she is not Katarina, or at least Agnes' grandma, she is ruthless enough in her leave no witnesses policy that Agnes might have had to disappear after seeing the "sleeping man". After all, she was willing to sacrifice Patrick. But Agnes would be a blood relative.

So I am willing to believe she is the real Katarina Rostova at this point, until proven otherwise. Which could happen. I think Katarina left with the money, that part of Dom's story is probably true, and made a new life, with a new identity, family, etc. Maybe she had gotten her own version of the white picket fence life that Liz used to want to have. The world thought KR was dead, and so even if Masha's existence and identity came to light, she wouldn't be endangered by her. Then Belgrade happened and everything changed again.

I don't know, I need to research a few things that I used to remember off the top of my head. LOL!

KathyN · 11/25/2019 11:06 pm

Honey West, I can see how you see the possibilities of "Katarina" being Masha's mother but I just have too hard a time reconciling the Lotte Katarina's maternal instincts with this woman's lack of them. I would like to think the Lotte K would be thrilled to be reunited with Masha, would call her Masha (not Liz!) and would never bring harm to Dom. But I can see your perspective that maybe she is so bitter and so jaded that she's lost the soft spots. I think we're going to find out by Episode 10 one way or the other.

Tuxie, while I still lean towards Redarina and what I posted above I'm also considering the 'what if' of Red not being Katarina. If he's not - I'm falling back on the the theory I had for the last few seaons - that OurRed was trained in Russian Spy Camp to walk into the shoes of the real Raymond Reddington and if that's the case, I think that's how "Katarina" knows him.

KR to Ilya when she saved him from suicide by hanging:
"How could you do this? How could you possibly be willing to die in order to protect him? After all we've been through, Ilya."

Who is the 'him' that she thinks Ilya is trying to protect? JB has said he writes lines to be read two ways. One way to read this is she's referring to Dom, which raises no questions. But if she's referring to Red, this would make no sense if she believed Reddington is an ex USA navy intelligence officer turned world criminal mastermind. There would be no reason for Ilya to protect him; no relationship, no bond. And why would Raymond Reddington, master criminal, even need Ilya's protection? And why in Episode 2 would Katarina have thought Red, an American, would be in touch with Dom, an old Russian spy, after all these years? Unless he was Dom's protege. And she knew it.

We know from Red's conversation last season with the Stranger/Ilya that they were close as children, pointing to Red being Russian, not an American born Raymond Reddington. But what if OurRed became Reddington not after the fire, but before he became a rising star at the Navy. Maybe he was inserted into young Reddington's life when he was in his early 20's. OurRed married Naomi, fathered Jennifer. Was in Kuwait, was "captured" by Seaduke. It was all part of his cover. OurRed was shot by Liz, was badly burned in the fire, but survived it. Maybe Katarina's affair with him wasn't because she was spying on an American intel officer, it was two childhood sweethearts continuing their romance even though one was undercover in America and the other was married to a Russian oligarch. Maybe that's why Dom was/is so upset with them because they jeopardized their missions by hooking up, topping it off with Katarina getting pregnant with OurRed's baby. And maybe OurRed stole the fulcrum because Katarina turned on him, Dom and the KGB when she aligned with Finch and the Cabal, almost blowing his cover by planting traitor type info in OurRed's name (on purpose to burn his mission?), and OurRed was still loyal to the KGB and stole the fulcrum to stop Katarina's betrayal.

I'm still in camp Redarina - but as an alternative theory, I'm going to chew on this for a while...

KathyN · 11/25/2019 11:13 pm

I have some more random thoughts of plot points that make no sense.

It makes no sense that "Katarina" wouldn't have gone after Ilya on her own, she shouldn't have needed to see a folder about him in Liz's apt to motivate her to go to him for answers. It's not like the folder had any current information about him, she had to hire the english guy to track him down. Finding it was supposed to act like some sort of catalyst. But that's ridiculous, if it was Ilya who involved her in Belgrade in the first place he'd be her first target. The only reason for her not to think to find him for 5 or so episodes was to delay the inevitable reveal that the Stranger was Ilya (and therefore Red can't be Ilya). Some plots are character driven; some are action driven. The plot of the BL is delay driven. This is a classic delay driven plot line.

Going back to the quote above. "How could you possibly be willing to die in order to protect him?" This actually makes no sense on any level. If the Townsend Directive is aimed at Katarina (real or imposter), neither Dom or Red needs protection from it or because of the info they are hiding from her. No one is targeting them. The only one that needs protection is Katarina. What she should have said is "to protect HER" - ie: the real Katarina, but to do that would disclose to the audience that she's not the Lotte Katarina, and they're not ready to do that yet. So more nonsense to delay the reveal.

And as for furthering the plot, in Episode 2 she didn't need Red to lead her to Dom anymore than she needed Liz to remind her of Ilya. You would think Katarina could've found Dom on her own the same way she tracked down Ilya. Look how easy it was for Liz to find Dom via the Oleander file. She didn't need Frankie to trick Red into going to Dom's house. It was just a way to introduce Frankie and endear her to Red.

Honey West · 11/25/2019 11:36 pm

It's not Red who needs protecting, it's his secrets, or whoever's secrets that he is protecting. I think Ilya knows it/them, or else knows how to get to it/them. And that's what Katarina wants.

Katarina is probably still death to Masha, so I can see why she still would not reveal herself to Liz. Besides, if she did then she wouldn't be able to use being near to Liz in her Townsend Directive search. And maybe this has been a way for her to get to know Liz and Agnes.

I get the impression that Katarina will stop at nothing, including killing Red and Ilya, to get what she wants, but she doesn't want to have to do it because of their past connections.

With Dom, it is sounding like he is the one responsible for Belgrade, but in Artax Network he tells Red that he was the one who messed everything up. I am assuming now that he was talking about Belgrade even though he didn't say it back then. We also noticed, at the time, that Dom had one or two Serbian books on his bookshelves.

I have felt from nearly the beginning that Red was either Russian or had lived in Russia as a child. My theory back then was that his father had been a diplomat or employee at the US Consulate in St. Petersburg. And later, that he had lived with or near Dom and his family and that Dom had perhaps even been his piano teacher. LOL!

Tuxie400 · 11/26/2019 9:41 am

KathyN - It's always good to have backup theories. I have one that is similar.

Honey West - From what I've seen on other sites, you're in the majority thinking this is the real Katarina. I just can't reconcile things she's said about Dom and things Dom has said about Katarina in this season and in the past with this person being the Lotte/Katarina.

Honey West · 11/26/2019 11:48 am

Tuxie400 wrote:
KathyN - It's always good to have backup theories. I have one that is similar.

Honey West - From what I've seen on other sites, you're in the majority thinking this is the real Katarina. I just can't reconcile things she's said about Dom and things Dom has said about Katarina in this season and in the past with this person being the Lotte/Katarina.

Heheheh! I never read other sites. Not enough time, and I am sort of tired of theorizing these days and I've gone to just watching to see how this plays out mode. But that doesn't mean I don't like reading the theories on our board. I find them most interesting and well thought-out. We have a smart group.

Eastcoast · 11/27/2019 1:50 am

Just wanted to throw this out here before I forget...

I was thinking back to some older movies I saw years ago about Russian defectors and spies. I recall that anyone who showed signs of defecting was disowned. I dont know that Doms attitude would be too out of line with the old way of thinking. I think he loves his daughter, but that he would be very bent out of shape by what KR did.

My theory can change week to week. I'm with HW.

I'm getting burned out on all the fake people. It has taken the fun out of watching. That's one of the main reasons I hope she is the real deal.

Tuxie400 · 11/27/2019 9:52 am

Eastcoast - I'm burned out on fake people too. But I expect BL to keep serving them up until the end.

Honey West · 11/27/2019 3:31 pm

"I see Fake People!" LOL!

I agree, too many fake people or potentially fake people. I was so glad that Ilya turned out to be Ilya! But, since this is a spy story at heart, fake identities are par for the course. I so hope that KR is KR and I really think that somehow, somewhere, Red will end up being the real RR, who "died" and was "reborn" as the new, improved, and far more interesting, Raymond Reddington.

But, you never know...

Plus, I always go back to the Pilot, and Red telling Liz that she was abandoned by a father who was a career criminal and a mother who died of weakness and shame. If you go by that, then KR cannot be the real
KR that we have today. So, does this go back to the idea that KR was actually several different women who worked under that name?