Eastcoast wrote:

Oh my goodness Honey-west!! I still wonder from time to time.  I still want to know why we heard the man say her name was Elizabeth in her memories?  She was not called Elizabeth until after the fire.  I brought up one time that I thought KR had come back for her after the memory wipe.  

I do hope we can make sense that we have 4 years that she has been born.  1983, 84, 85 and 86. 

I had a chance to poke around for a few and I saw something on Aly's tumblr that reminded me of something that I had wanted to mention a while ago.  

JB had said a long time ago that this was a 'chosen one' story'.  I had wondered how that might tie into the statement that Red made about his Hobson Choice and that KR said he chose well?  
 

Eastcoast, I was editing my post above yours when you posted.  If you can, go back and read my parenthetical about clones.  It would certainly fit the Hobson choice idea if they picked the Liz clone out of all of them.  I loved Fringe, I have no objections at all if this show veers into Fringe-land, a lot of the writers came from Fringe so it's conceivable. But what would the general audience do if this became a sci-fi show? I think a lot of people would have a hard time accepting redarina, can you imagine them accepting that Liz was a test-tube experiment where multiple children were conceived using Raymond Reddington's dna. Maybe even Tom!?  wow
 

Eastcoast wrote:

KathyN, I never saw Fringe.  I do agree that anything is possible on this show! Lol 
 

Eastcoast - Fringe was a fantastic show.  If you already watched Person of Interest, and need a show to watch over the summer, I'd highly recommend it.  (but watch POI first if you haven't seen it yet!).   I don't want to spoil it, it's an x-files type show dealing with parallel universes, alternating time lines, and an FBI agent, who it turns out was experimented on as a child, as part of a psychic warriors program, that involved not only her but others in the show as well, which none of them remember until well into the show, but explains and wraps up all of their involvement. I hope that doesn't spoil it, the show is so rich and has so many different plot lines going, I don't think it does.

 

Tatiana - The pieces sure have been moving and changing in the past two seasons!

KathyN, they say over and over she was 4.  They say they have a person who keeps all the dates straight.  
The date that has bothered me the most is the last one.  JB said in one of the interviews that the dates work.  So why did they show her birthday as 1983 in the very last episode we saw?  Why put a new date and not at least use one of the other 3 years that you have used on the show? 

I think they need to print out the timelines kept by the fans with theirs so they can compare. 

Lot of good ideas and questions on this thread I want to reply to, but life is far too busy right now. Maybe later in the week, I'll have some time.

Thanks eastcoast for updating the time line. I forgot they gave Liz a new birth year at the end of season6. I don't know what that's about, continuity errors are unforgiveable at this point.  Shame on them if they're just being sloppy. I hope there is a legitimate reason for introducing so many birth years. For now I am using the 1986 birth year as Liz's true birth year, with the fire she was actually in happening in 1989 and a second fire, the 'official fire', the fire she thinks she was in, happening in 1990. I have two parallel theories using that year - two theories because Bokencamp said he's running parallel story lines so that two theories fit, and when he refers to the 'fan theory' as one of them I'm pretty sure he means Redarina. So I have one theory that makes Ilya our SpaderRed and  and then the same basic story tweaked for Redarina so that SpaderRed is actually Katarina.  I'll post them in their final form when I hash them out so I don't have to keep tweaking them.

As for leaving Redarina open, I wonder if JB is doing that to keep fans talking or if he's actually leaving the option open and they haven't made their minds up yet which way they want to go. I think the 'politically correct' climate is changing as far as transgenderism goes and they may be watching which way the wind blows. For example, when Person of Interest injected a LGBT storyline they were so excited that they were being progressive, they bragged about it in their interviews, how cool it was etc,  but when the series ended, the LGBT community was really angry at them for what happened. (no spoilers).  They had no idea in a few years time what would be exciting turned out to be offensive.  I think the same thing can happen here.

When the Blacklist started, transgenderism wasn't really a charged issue and was an interesting 'plot device' to be used to surprise the viewers.  There was an oscar winning movie that did it, I forget the name now, it was a major plot twist when it turned out he was a she or she was a he (I forget...).   But now transgenderism is a right and a force and I think the LGBT community might be upset if a television show belittled the angst and psychic trauma they go through in their lives realizing they were born into the wrong body and then having to go through the physical agony that comes with the physical transformation.  So to just use it as a plot device for someone to go undercover, who wasn't a woman born in a man's body but just someone on the run, may upset the LGBT community in a major way and the producers/network people may realize that. And if they don't, they should.  Redarina could backfire on them bigtime, bringing all kinds of condemnation of insensitivity, exploitation, etc.  So even if  they may have been considering it, or even if they only thought about it after fans brought it up and they ran with it as an alternate story line, they may not end up going that route at the end of the day for that reason.   food for thought anyway...

Here's the quote I'm referring to from the last Exposed interview:


Q: .... Ilya comes up with this great plan, they talk about it, but then you don't see who's on the table, you don't see who's in the bank, from the face forward side. You see him from the behind. So if you knew who that was that's game over at that point.  I think that's why people are like what can I believe in that episode 'cause clearly there was stuff hidden for a reason.

JB: Well again, this is me being tricky. Maybe, or maybe it was, maybe you just didn't see his face and Ilya is Ilya, ya know, Ilya is Red.  bBt you're right, I mean it could be interpreted in another way. It's the same thing with, ya know John and I were talking about this in an interview. Some of the conversations, we do this often, we've done this back to I remember in Season 2 we did it, and I'm sure we did it before. Oftentimes these conversations, many times with Red, but with other characters, can be interpreted, it's what's so fun about the show, can be interpreted in different ways, right? It's one conversation, maybe it's on the surface it appears to be one thing - maybe you have a fan theory that influences it makes it go another direction. But the subtext of the show is what the show is.  And the idea that we can have characters having a conversation that can be interpreted in two different ways - I love that. And it's super hard to do, super hard to do. But you're pointing it out with the Ilya episode, I mean maybe it's as Aaron has said  before, maybe what we saw is what we saw and that is the truth. And it is a simple truth and it is an answer and it is concrete-  or -  the camp that you would take would say "well, I didn't see his face, I didn't see who was on the table and maybe that was all very purposeful" and maybe you're both right. I'm being dodgy again but that's, it's what I love about the show and what we work so hard to try to do is have double meanings.
 

Last edited by KathyN (6/19/2019 5:40 pm)

It is interesting to do a rewatch of the show knowing what we know now. 
I do not know if we ever brought this up or not, in the Stewmaker, the song at the end is called, Made of Stone. 

I think it connects a bit to what Red said about his dad and mom.

See I left my mother's arms.
See I left my father's home.
And I fell into a well of hope,
I'm carrying my heart but it's made of stone.
I'm carrying my heart but my heart is made of stone.

Eastcoast wrote:

Oh my goodness Honey-west!! I still wonder from time to time.  I still want to know why we heard the man say her name was Elizabeth in her memories?  She was not called Elizabeth until after the fire.  I brought up one time that I thought KR had come back for her after the memory wipe.  

I do hope we can make sense that we have 4 years that she has been born.  1983, 84, 85 and 86. 

I had a chance to poke around for a few and I saw something on Aly's tumblr that reminded me of something that I had wanted to mention a while ago.  

JB had said a long time ago that this was a 'chosen one' story'.  I had wondered how that might tie into the statement that Red made about his Hobson Choice and that KR said he chose well?  


 

I think she was called Elizabeth by the real RR, just at Liz remembers it happening. That mumbo jumbo Sam gave Kaplan about calling her Elizabeth because he treated her like a queen was a lie. 

I guess answers are coming....  

HW,  I think she must have grown on him.  All the stuff we have seen about her first going there does not reflect him being so happy.  I did get the impression that Sam had known Red.  I was thinking that if Ilya is Red, that KR probably told him everything was fine with her being there, and that could be why he told Liz that Sam took her in without hesitation.  That could be what he was told. 

 

Good point, Tuxie400.