The Blacklist Refugees » Evidence for the Imposter Theory

Tuxie400 · 1/07/2017 9:31 am

I read a very well-thought-out and evidence-based article supporting the idea that Red is an imposter yesterday. It's titled "Evidence that Red Is Not the Real Raymond" by eaglechica19 on her "A Raincheck for that Stroganoff" tumblr. Her theory is that Red is an unknown male deep undercover who is trying to find out what happened to his family when they went missing. Here is the link:

http://eaglechica19.tumblr.com/post/155459767745/evidence-that-red-is-not-the-real-raymond

Although her evidence is aimed at supporting a male imposter, it als0 works in support of that imposter being Katarina, which I think could be true. And many of her points are those I have held in my head supporting the mommy theory. The evidence that most makes me think Red is an imposter is the fact that those people who would have known Raymond Reddington best prior to his disappearance never address him by name: Sam, Carla, and his Naval Academy friend, Richard. They recognize him, but they don't call him Ray or Raymond.

Also there are two anecdotal stories Red tells that don't jibe with what we know of Raymond Reddington. The first is his high school lifeguard story. Red tells Nikos about how after he saved a woman who belched up some nasty stuff, he never went in a pool again. Nikos replies, "but weren't you in the Naval Academy?" He would had to have done swimming pool drills in the Naval Academy. The other story is the one he tells in the shipping container hideaway in the Marvin Gerard episode. Red tells Liz that when he young, he always wanted to be the captain of a ship. After he tells her the story, he laughs and says I've told anyone that. It really doesn't make sense that if that was a long standing dream of a boy who went to the Naval Academy, he wouldn't have told someone that before. Certainly he would have told his parents and friends growing up, and especially when he received his acceptance to the Naval Academy. Although the dialog in that scene was lifted from The Wonder Years, it still applies somehow to the Blacklist mystery.

Eaglechica19 has a lot of other points, many involving the fire memories. Take a look. It's a good read and food for thought.

lara1 · 1/07/2017 12:11 pm

Tuxie400. That is really interesting and i look forward to reading it.

I meant to write yesterday that when I re-watched the mid seaon finale, i became convinced again that Red is not Red. You've probably read at one time or another that i think Reddington is a made up identity. The " person" never existed only the identity. But who knows, really.

When i watched that scene with Kirk again, it was almost creepy how close up the camera shots were of Red, esp as compared with the camera angles on Kirk. Very long, very close shots of Red's eyes in particular, in fact i think the camera closed in so at times you only saw his eyes and maybe once, just one eye and half of his face. It made me think that there was someone else behind the face looking out, almost like someone looking out intensely from behind a mask

What does it mean? I dont know but at the same time i think there was a reason for those close ups where the same intsensity was not given in the camera close ups of Kirk. Katerina? Maybe. Someone else? Maybe again. I think either explains Red's "no" reply when liz asked if he was her father But ithe whole close up camera angle thing really stood out to me having not seen it since close to when it originally aired.

Then again maybe not! (cwy)

.

Last edited by lara1 (1/07/2017 12:13 pm)

Tuxie400 · 1/07/2017 2:55 pm

lara1 wrote:
When i watched that scene with Kirk again, it was almost creepy how close up the camera shots were of Red, esp as compared with the camera angles on Kirk. Very long, very close shots of Red's eyes in particular, in fact i think the camera closed in so at times you only saw his eyes and maybe once, just one eye and half of his face. It made me think that there was someone else behind the face looking out, almost like someone looking out intensely from behind a mask

What does it mean? I dont know but at the same time i think there was a reason for those close ups where the same intsensity was not given in the camera close ups of Kirk. Katerina? Maybe. Someone else? Maybe again. I think either explains Red's "no" reply when liz asked if he was her father But ithe whole close up camera angle thing really stood out to me having not seen it since close to when it originally aired.

Then again maybe not! (cwy)
.

lara1 - Good observations about those camera shots! That one with only one of Red's eyes really stood out to me too. I also think the dropped hat was like taking the mask off the Lone Ranger. It was the camera shots in Cape May that made me lean toward the mommy theory.

Colleen · 1/12/2017 4:21 pm

Tuxie400 - thanks for the link - just read the article and all that information and theorizing needs to soak into my brain - I loved reading it!

While reading the "Red is not Reddington" theory, something popped into my head. What if Red was Reddington's bodyguard or body double? When Reddington died, Red assumed his identity to finish Reddington's work. It would explain why Red knew so much about Reddington's life but also why Red is so protective of Liz. It would also reconcile how Red values loyalty above all else with what we've been told about Reddington's behavior (was married and had an affair).

I need to think this through some more, but wanted to share

Also - Tuxie400 - I've mentioned a couple times before that I'm reading a book about Krampus, St. Nick's evil twin. A couple customs in the book made me think of the "Red is Katarana" theory. Repeatedly the book mentioned how males portrayed - and still do portray - female characters during certain Christmas customs or parades. There are also a few times when females portray male characters. One of these days I'll put together a summary of the book/customs and how they might relate to TBL, but I wanted to at least let you know about the gender swapping bit

Last edited by Colleen (1/12/2017 4:23 pm)

Tuxie400 · 1/12/2017 6:26 pm

Colleen - Glad you liked the article! The body double idea might work if Red was heavily involved in a spy operation. Or even if he was trying to throw off tails like Liz was in the early Season 2 episodes. I think it's unlikely that as a Naval officer Red would have had a bodyguard. That's interesting that the Krampus book mentioned gender swapping.

Colleen · 1/12/2017 6:57 pm

Hi again Everyone - am adding to my ramblings. I'm wondering if "Red is not Reddington" can tie in with the theory that Liz is a descendant from the Tzar of Russia. If Liz's family were descendants of the Tzar, there could be people even today who would want them dead or under their thumb, if only to gain access to the vast wealth the Tzar's family had, let alone the political upheaval it could cause.

It would make sense then to have a bodyguard. Of course working in intelligence would also be a risky job that could benefit from some protection. Maybe the real Reddington was being handled by Red and Red feels guilty for not preventing his death.

But I'm partial to the Tzar bodyguard angle because it ties in with all the royalty references we've seen throughout the series. Plus it's just so darn cool. It could also explain how Red would know Carla, being the wife of a royal descendant. But it doesn't explain why Red hasn't been looking for Jennifer, as she would be royalty too.

So maybe the Tzar bodyguard angle can work with Katarana as a royal descendant. It would provide a good reason for Dom living in seclusion, almost in hiding, to stay alive. Red told Dom he always had a reason to return to the world - to claim his rightful inheritance and play a part in Russian politics.

Back to Royal Reddington (or Royal Katarana) - if you were a descendant of royalty why the devil would you get a job in intelligence or as a spy or any job at all? Go public, claim your inheritance, and hire lots of bodyguards with all that money. Maybe the descendant went into intelligence to find out the names of everyone who'd want him/her dead. Or went into intelligence to learn how to protect oneself and detect untrustworthy colleagues or employees. Perhaps that's why Red went underground for 20 years, to learn who would want the descendant dead.

Red being confused for Royal Reddington may have gotten his family murdered. So whoever wanted Royal Reddington and his family/child/descendant dead - they are the same people who killed Red's family, thinking they were killing off a Royal lineage.

Or none of this is anywhere near the truth. But it's so fun to brainstorm after reading other fans' ideas and observations, I couldn't resist :-)

Colleen · 1/12/2017 7:01 pm

Tuxie400 - I was typing up my post as you were posting yours. Never even thought of using a body double as a spy - but your example about Liz is perfect!!!

IowaWatcher · 1/12/2017 8:43 pm

Some good thoughts here! Thanks for the link to the article. I'll read it this weekend when I've had more sleep. It has been a long week, and there's a bad ice storm in the offing for this weekend.

lara1 · 1/12/2017 9:17 pm

hi all, really interesting thoughts. I haven't finished reading the article yet - I got up to the analysis of the fire - but hope to do so soon. I keep scrolling up and down and re-reading, which is what takes me so long! LOL. So far the author has touched upon some of my own notes - both put together in the same way, and in different ways - as well as some new ideas I hadn't thought of so its really interesting....

I am still obsessed with the mirrors in the series and other things that offer reflections - particularly of Red - like Red's image reflecting on the lid of a grand piano - and whether it points to literal smoke and mirrors and a Red "double" of some kind. I remember a few months ago someone here wrote up on observations of mirrors throughout the series that I need to revisit.

Colleen, really interesting on Krampus! I have some thoughts on that too since I'm also obsessed with Red being St. Nick....LOL.

See everyone at 10!

Last edited by lara1 (1/12/2017 9:18 pm)

lara1 · 1/15/2017 5:10 pm

So I just went back through this and its really interesting. I don't agree with all of it, and I think that there may be some small factual errors, but it makes a good case that somehow, maybe not exactly as proposed therein, but somehow, Red is not the real Red. Of course, that's what I think anyway though I don't know how/why, LOL. And it has crossed my mind from time to time - what if Red and Liz are the opposite relationship to each other - i.e. Red is like her father but isn't, and Liz is not his daughter but a replacement for Red's real daughter or otherwise connected to her in some way.....

It also pointed out some things I hadn't focused on, like how many times a variant of "Elizabeth" is used in the story by either a main character or someone else critical to the story. I knew some of them but hadn't caught the others. One of the most recent being the fake "Elise" who duped Aram....

The other thing that I hadn't focused on was the number of times Red seemingly seeks to have others know, or not in any way be doubtful of the fact that he is Reddington. And all of the people he has made disappear, given fake identities too etc. I was aware of that of course, but never put it together in quite the same way.

One angle that is not discussed is the royalty angle. I still believe that has to fit into the story somehow as there are just way too many references to royalty in various stories and dialog. how I don't know though...

Colleen - I will come back to you on Krampus. I've given that some thought and I do believe its giving us clues about something in Red's nature/story......

Tuxie400 · 1/15/2017 6:17 pm

lara1 - Eaglechica had several arguments I'd never thought of before, and I think a lot of them have merit. And there are some, especially those centering on the fire, that i don't agree with at all. I knew that Sam never addressed Red by name, but it surprised me to read that Carla hadn't. I went back and reread all the transcripts with Carla/Naomi, and sure enough she never called him Ray or Raymond. The Naval Academy roommate didn't either. I do think that was deliberate by the writers, and a clue to the mystery.

I agree with you about the mirrors. They are significant. Red and Liz have been shown in mirrors over and over again. And mirrors symbolize identity.

A big thing for me that indicates Red is an imposter is something we discovered on this forum by the midseason finale: everyone other than Red and Ressler who've been in the "box," has had another identity. Fitch was "The Decembrist," Liz was Masha, the faux Red was Gregory DeVry, Alexander Kirk was Constantin Rostov. This is a strong clue to me that Red is someone other than Raymond Reddington. And I don't mean just those those many aliases like Kenneth Rathers.

Colleen and lara1 - The royalty idea captivates me. Anastasia and the fake Anastasias were always one of my historical interests. But I'm not so sure it will apply in the end. The royalty references may just reflect the fact Liz was treated like a little princess early in life and lived part time at the Summer Palace.

lara1 · 1/15/2017 9:55 pm

HI Tuxie400, I agree with you about the fire theories - I also did not agree with that part. But others are intriguing. The bit about the names I also didn't realize and come to think of it - Richard the Naval Academy roommate recognized him - though not necessarily as Reddington. Only as someone who messed up and caused a lot of grief and ruined careers....who could have been someone other than Reddington, also at the Academy.....I will need to watch that scene again.

You may be right about the royalty references. Maybe we have already seen what they were pointing to. I had hoped that they were all tied up with 2017 , whatever the plan was for then, which is also the centenary of the Russian revolution. I guess if the references to royalty are no longer introduced into episodes, that will be our answer. Or maybe not!!

Last edited by lara1 (1/15/2017 11:13 pm)

lara1 · 1/15/2017 11:13 pm

Just to add to my thought in #12, and that Eaglechia pointed out that Sam, Richard the Naval Admiral and Carla never called Red by name - any name. Interestingly, I always thought that both Sam and Richard did not recognize Red until he started to speak. Both have hesitation when they first see him. Then he starts speaking and they know who it is - they recognize the voice - but are they recognizing Reddington or the person who took over Reddington's identity? That's how it appeared to me anyway. So that would tend to support a theory that he's not really Red, but whoever he is, he is known to both. We don't know if either of them ever saw Red again after the "events". If not they would not know what he now looks like. Maybe there's some holes with this idea. I need to think it through.

With Carla, I think she recognized who Red was because its obvious he's coming to the cabin where he stashed her, though to me she still seemed a bit surprised when he first walked in. She still comments that he has changed a lot....So is she talking about Red or the person who took over his identity. Interestingly, when he and Dembe meet Berlin and Berlin releases Naomi, Dembe walks Carla away from Berlin and back towards Red, but they never take off her blindfold. I always thought that odd, Dembe continues to guide her past Red and she still has the blindfold on. Maybe it was so that she did not see anyone, although I think she probably already saw everyone on Berlin's side. Was it because Red looked so different from who he was that it was better that she saw that after she was settled? I still don't think "current Red" was ever married to Naomi and that Jennifer was not his child. Well time will tell I guess.

Just some Sunday musings....

Eastcoast · 1/21/2017 12:44 am

I still go back and forth on this. But I will admit it crosses my mind at the beginning of each show when they show his face. It is half Red and looks half someone else. That has always bugged me.

lara1 · 1/21/2017 12:47 am

Eastcoast wrote:
I still go back and forth on this. But I will admit it crosses my mind at the beginning of each show when they show his face. It is half Red and looks half someone else. That has always bugged me.

That is an interesting observation. Now with all the MI-6 stuff I am wondering what he had to make a deal with them on and why and how much time he may have spent in the UK and what he did -- and how one person could be in all of these different places - US, mideast, Russia and now maybe the UK, at the same time.

then again, I am of course looking at it through my imposter-tinted glasses LOL!

Eastcoast · 1/21/2017 12:53 am

I know, but he does fly everywhere! He goes to other countries more than I do the grocery store!

lara1 · 1/21/2017 12:57 am

Eastcoast wrote:
I know, but he does fly everywhere! He goes to other countries more than I do the grocery store!

True, LOL!

lara1 · 1/27/2017 7:21 pm

Hi there, the same person whose post on imposter Red was attached by Tuxie400 in the first post above, has another post on the Red as deep undercover theory.

An interesting thing that the poster points out is that whenever Red was escorted to a kind of "house arrest" - after the pilot, in Luther Braxton etc. its the NAVY that is taking him into custody. Why? isn't that curious? not the fbi, cia or other government organization, but the Navy.

Also, that Red may have told Liz that he will always do whatever he has to, to keep her safe, may be not only because of a connection they have, but because its his mission.

Of course this plays right into my idea that Red is a cover identity, not to say he hasn't lived the life, but its not his life, its the life of his cover identity. Anyway, you all may find interesting nonetheless.

thanks to Aly Blacklist for posting on her site, too.

http://eaglechica19.tumblr.com/post/156430631080/more-proof-that-red-is-still-undercover

Last edited by lara1 (1/27/2017 7:25 pm)

Tuxie400 · 1/27/2017 9:37 pm

lara1 - I saw eaglechica's post on this earlier today.. I hadn't noticed it was the Navy who had Red in custody after the pilot and Luther Braxton. Why would that be? Surely he's not still on an Navy undercover assignment, is he? It does make you wonder.

lara1 · 1/27/2017 9:39 pm

hi Tuxie400. I think part of eaglechica's theory is that he could still be on an undercover mission.
although - I guess its true that technically he is still Navy officer gone AWOL so that might be why he is technically in their custody when he is "arrested". good food for thought though!