The Blacklist Refugees » Fall Hiatus Discussion, Season 4

Honey West · 12/16/2016 6:47 pm

lara1 wrote:
Honey West wrote:
Okay, I have been trying to figure out some ideas about the past and the Red, Katarina, Constantin triangle. One thing I keep tripping over is when did Red find out Katarina was KGB? Before Liz? After Liz? Just before the fire? After the fire? Before she was even assigned to him? I.e - he was actually assigned to her? Or just before he disappeared?
Whenever he found that out, I think it set a lot of what happened later in motion.

Hi Honey West - i have been trying to figure out the same thing. If we think that the man and the woman in the fire night fight were Red and Katarina then the man seems to have only found out. That's if they were the fighting couple....i still think there's layers in there as well as gaps, so hard to conclude too much

The other thing i have been thinking about....red told Constantine that Liz/Masha had lived at Constantin's house for 4 years....which means that Red didnt take her until she was 4, and maybe right before fire night. But if both Katarina and Masha/Liz were "lost" to Kirk, as he claimed on the rooftop, why wasnt kataria with Liz and Red - if the woman looking for Masha on fire night was Katarina, why hadnt she and Masha left together with Constantin? And if Red simply "took" Liz/Masha at the age of 4, what event precipitated it ?

Questions, questions!

So many events hinge on knowing when some of these things happened. You know, I wonder if maybe it wasn't Katarina there on fire night, but then who would be calling her Masha? I thought maybe the woman could have been Kate, but I doubt that Kate would have been calling her Masha since she always calls her Elizabeth.

My re-watch has slowed dawn with the holiday festivities, but last night I managed to watch Lord Baltimore and Monarch Douglas Bank. First time I've seen the Naomi scenes since the "revelation". I viewed them a bit differently, that's for sure! Like when Liz talks to Red about Jennifer - he seems to have a pained expression when she's talking about her, then he goes back to "normal" and moves onto the blacklister. I really hope they revisit Jennifer before too long. We need much more info about her. But it was interesting to listen to Naomi talk about being suspected of "being in on it", her accounts frozen, etc. Then left in Philadelphia to fend for themselves. That didn't sound like witness protection to me. I wonder if that happened later on, maybe after 1993 when Red came to his agreement with Fitch. But the Naomi stuff made me think of Red's friend Richard. Anyone who had been associated with him was blackballed after his treason. And when you think about it, giving secrets to a KGB spy would have been treason. Then the question becomes was he set up from the beginning or did things just work out that way.
I still need to finish my little outline and post it here. Then you all can help me with it.

Tuxie400 · 12/16/2016 9:32 pm

I think it makes sense that RR found about Katarina shortly before he took Liz. The fact Katarina wouldn't let him see Lizzie and finding out Kat was a KGB spy likely precipitated the kidnapping. I think he only took Liz when he decided she was no longer safe with Katarina and Constantin. It may have had to do with the Soviet Union collapsing or threats from the Cabal. I think Katarina followed soon after to find her daughter and the fulcrum.

Honey West · 12/17/2016 12:41 am

Tuxie400 wrote:
I think it makes sense that RR found about Katarina shortly before he took Liz. The fact Katarina wouldn't let him see Lizzie and finding out Kat was a KGB spy likely precipitated the kidnapping. I think he only took Liz when he decided she was no longer safe with Katarina and Constantin. It may have had to do with the Soviet Union collapsing or threats from the Cabal. I think Katarina followed soon after to find her daughter and the fulcrum.

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking, Tuxie400. I am thinking that Red thought he was simply having an affair. Not that it was so simple. But if you try to go into maybe he was spying on her while she was spying on him, yada yada yada, it could get pretty convoluted and way more crazy than necessary.

Tuxie400 · 12/17/2016 11:26 am

Honey West - He does say it was complicated, so maybe they were spying on each other.

Honey West · 12/17/2016 1:51 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
Honey West - He does say it was complicated, so maybe they were spying on each other.

LOL! That is so true!

lara1 · 12/27/2016 8:54 pm

susmize13 wrote:
I theorized a little while ago that i thought today's Red was actually someone else who took over original Red's identity, even so far as to have had plastic surgery. There is a definite bond of some kind between Red and Dom, and like Lara 1, I can see a paternal thing going on here. I had theorized that the original Red was killed that night of the fire and was indeed Liz's father and that someone took over his personna, someone who knew both Katerina and "Red". I theorized that it was Katerina's brother, which would make today's Red Dom's son, but a son that Dom sees as dead, therefore Dom feels that he has no family left. But I think we could see Dom's affection for new Red, when he sees the piano fixed. And the familiarity with the two of them - the hot sauce vs. pepper, the coffee mugs that someone noticed were the same, the fact that "Red" knew where to look for the things in the garage, and him trying to put away groceries as he had probably done years before, only to find out that Dom had rearranged the pantry. And another thing that I don't think we can ignore. There is too much Russian stuff around this new "Red". The Bethesda flat is loaded with all things Russian, from photos of a Russian General to Russian nesting dolls up on the bookcases. If something along these lines were to be true, it would make alot of things fall into place. Red would not have been lying when he told Liz that her father was dead, he would not have been lying when he told her that he was not her father. And what if this fact was what he told Kirk, that Reddington is dead and I'm Nicholas, for lack of a better name (Nick's pizza) and I took over his identity to get to the truth and exact revenge. That would make Kirk let him live. Just some of my crazy thoughts.

Hi Suzmize13, just catching up with some of the comments on here. That's an interesting thought about Red possibly being Katarina's brother., having taken on the persona of Red I do think that had Red been Dom's son and brother (or possibly half-brother) to Katarina, or possibly an adopted son of Dom's, that Dom no longer considers him to be his son/family because of the massive blow up caused by Red, hence Dom's comment to Red that as far as Dom is concerned, Red killed his entire family (i.e. so Dom and Red are estranged in a way because of what happened and Dom blames Red; also Dom'e "son" is no longer that, he is "Red")

I do think that the expressions Red has whenever Dom lashes out show that Dom's comments sting, perhaps more deeply than we know. I think Red is visibly upset when left at the front door by Dom, that's just my take. And Red's comment to Dom about Dom still having family. Of course, if Red is Katarina's brother, Red liked to Kirk, in a way. He said that Liz is his daughter, what he means ini this scenario is that she is "Red's" daughter (and he is not Red), so that is actually a way that the statement could be true while not being literally true......

It also gets a bit complicated when you start to think of the whole Red/Katarina/Red as target/interloper thing but if you think that it was all true of "real" Red and Katarina, not Katarina's brother, it works. So all of that would have had to be a great deception and the conversation with Kirk a lie. On the other hand, if Red was adopted or otherwise taken in by Dom, it could still be a deception. And if what Red whispered to Kirk was that he was really Katarina's brother, it might be the reason why Kirk spared him in the end. He would not kill Katarina's brother.

All just theory of course but fun to think about......

Hope everyone who celebrates any of the December holidays has had a wonderful holiday....here's to 2017!

Last edited by lara1 (12/27/2016 8:57 pm)

Honey West · 12/27/2016 11:06 pm

We can sure come up with some complicated theories! LOL! I have only gotten to Monarch Douglas Bank in my re-watch. But I feel that I really need to finish season 2 before we get back to business.
All we really know at this point is that Red admitted that Elizabeth was his daughter and whatever he told Kirk in the end was pretty stunning, judging by Kirk's reaction.

I'm really leaning towards the idea that Red has some or all of Katarina's memories. How that was accomplished, I have no idea. But I am thinking that Cape May, with Red heavily under the influence of opium, may have been more than just a hallucination, maybe some of those memories were able to come to the surface. And maybe he doesn't even realize that they are there, or what are there. I still find it interesting that he didn't "recognize" her. If she was his hallucination of Katarina Rostova, why didn't he know who she was?
Red: I don't know your name.
Katarina: Don't be ridiculous, Raymond.

So, when Red made his admission to Kirk, he was under terrific stress. Could that have been her memory surfacing and making the admission? He never said he was her father, and that was the question that Kirk was asking. And then Red asking Kirk to talk about Katarina because he said he'd forgotten what she was really like and then finishing Kirk's sentence "dancing", as if the memory was being triggered.

Or something like that.

lara1 · 12/28/2016 9:28 pm

Honey West #27. I like your idea of Red having Katarina’s memories. And I, too, never understood why in Cape May Red did not recognize “Katarina”. Yet, it appears it must have been Katarina if that is how she appeared also to Liz whenever Liz imagines her. The interesting thing about the latter, though, is I thought that Liz’s memories of her mother had been erased or replaced. So is the Katarina she sees the “real” Katarina or an implanted memory of her “mother” - and just how is she remembering if her memories were wiped…..but then again that just leads me back to were there two Katarinas….the “real” and the alias and if so, which one did Red know? Or, is liz remembering the “real” Katarina whereas Red doesn’t see the same “Katarina” as his memory of her was erased/altered….It seems to me that the more info we have, the further we are from the truth as it forms just more theories! LOL

Is it then possible that Red’s memories of Katarina had been erased/replaced and maybe what he is remembering isn’t really what she was? and was it for his protection Katarina’s? Its never been reconciled, in my opinion, how the woman in the swing photo seems to look nothing like “katarina”. And does Red ask Kirk about Katarina because he really does not remember what she was like - i.e. his memory wiped,/altered or was that just a Red tactic to try to figure a way out of his situation….And was Red’s reaction, as you say, that of katarina as her memories were somehow coming to the surface though Red may have experienced them as his own memories of her… Well I digress. I like the idea of Red having Katarina’s memories…buried, or replaced…

Switching gears for a moment to the Red is Katarina theory, I do think some of the strongest support for that is in that final scene and Red’s reaction to what Kirk is saying . Then again Red could just be remembering Katarina through Kirk’s words and story…..because maybe his own memories of her had been wiped/replaced…..I don’t know what it was that Red said to Kirk, but it was his ace, his “get out of jail” card, his final back up plan to use if everything else failed. I tend to think that were Red “Katarina” that Kirk would not have left. The woman who Kirk says he was so in love with, who disappeared, finally returns, albeit as Red, I don’t think Kirk would just disappear. I think Kirk stared at Red in shock/disbelief, but not necessarily with recognition, as in - you are Katarina. More like, some fundamental truth had been told to him, or something that rocked the foundation of his existence. well that’s enough for tonight! LOL!

Last edited by lara1 (12/28/2016 9:32 pm)

Honey West · 12/28/2016 10:03 pm

lara1 wrote:
I do think that the expressions Red has whenever Dom lashes out show that Dom's comments sting, perhaps more deeply than we know. I think Red is visibly upset when left at the front door by Dom, that's just my take. And Red's comment to Dom about Dom still having family. Of course, if Red is Katarina's brother, Red liked to Kirk, in a way. He said that Liz is his daughter, what he means ini this scenario is that she is "Red's" daughter (and he is not Red), so that is actually a way that the statement could be true while not being literally true......

It also gets a bit complicated when you start to think of the whole Red/Katarina/Red as target/interloper thing but if you think that it was all true of "real" Red and Katarina, not Katarina's brother, it works. So all of that would have had to be a great deception and the conversation with Kirk a lie. On the other hand, if Red was adopted or otherwise taken in by Dom, it could still be a deception. And if what Red whispered to Kirk was that he was really Katarina's brother, it might be the reason why Kirk spared him in the end. He would not kill Katarina's brother.

Ha! I spent a lot of time outside with the leaf blower today and that is always a good time to think, since you can't talk to anyone. So today I was thinking about this thread.
And it occurred to me that maybe there is something to this idea about the relationship between Red and Dom. I was also going back to something TPTB said back near the beginning about they wanted to go somewhere with the story's end, but that the network might find it too controversial. This sent me out along sort of soap opera lines and Greek tragedies. And that broadcast network TV might be hesitant to go where HBO treads on a somewhat regular basis.

The only Katarina/Red parent that we have met so far is Dom. Red has said that his mother was dead. But we have no idea about Katarina's mother or Red's father. Who they were or what they did. And for all we know, the two families could have known each other. An idea that I had a long time ago was that perhaps there had been an affair between two of them, either Red's father and Dom's wife or Dom and Red's mother. I was thinking at that time, that maybe Red and Katarina were half-siblings. That was before the affair was confirmed. But I got to thinking today that maybe that could still be true. And maybe Dom was Red's real father. Of course this would probably have been a big secret for years if it was an affair. And by the time KGB agent Katarina became involved with intelligence officer Reddington, they likely had no idea. But somebody knew. And that somebody may have been the one who pushed them together in the first place. It sounds like she was the one assigned to him, but why Red? At that point he would only have been a not terribly high level intelligence guy, no matter how talented he was, and probably didn't have access to the best top secrets yet. I think it had something to do with the Warrior gene or some variant of it that was kind of unique to Red and Katarina. And that maybe if you could get these two carriers of this rare variant together then you might get a super warrior of some sort. Then there's the story about Katarina being furious when she discovered that she was pregnant. As a spy who specialized in "seduction of foreign diplomats and intelligence personnel", that had to be something that would really be a problem for her. And I suspect that she would always be very careful to avoid pregnancy in the first place. But it would have been easy for a doctor or whoever was manipulating this situation to see that her birth control pills were maybe swapped for placebos or something. I think it's clear that somebody wanted her pregnant, and with this particular child. Why didn't she go ahead and terminate her pregnancy, as Red has said she wanted to do? Konstantin found out. Probably the same "doctor" or whoever, saw to it that he found out before she could do anything, and, thinking the baby was his, he would provide the perfect cover for the whole thing and ensure that she would keep the baby. I think that he did not know she was KGB, and if she'd tried to end her pregnancy, she might tip him off that there was something not quite right about her.

So we come down to Red's stubborn reluctance to talk to Liz about her origins. I think he found out who Katarina really was to him. And maybe what the possible plans were for the little girl. So he did what he could to take her away from all that, literally burning down the world to save her. He has truly wanted her to have a normal life. But no matter what he does, he can't stop fate. it seems that Katarina fell in love with him, so she probably had no idea of the truth. Maybe she found out and that was what drove her to kill herself after he "died" in the fire. Maybe she planned to take Masha with her and that's where he saved the child but had to let the mother go? But I think Red was doomed to failure because of the fact that he had divulged secrets to the enemy and that being treason, whoever knew about it would have held incredible power over him. He thought he was smarter than they were and that he could outwit them and everything would end up okay, but he's only delayed his day of reckoning.

Okay, so these were just some thoughts I had as I was cleaning up the leaves in my yard. LOL! I haven't worked out details, but if Red is really Dom's son and Katarina's brother or half-brother, it might explain some things that don't otherwise make sense. like why Red can't talk about it, since it wouldn't be just a simple affair between two people who were married to others at the time and had a kid. And the networks might shy away from that story in prime time. But HBO sure wouldn't!

Of course, it could still work out to be pretty complicated even if they weren't related in any way.

Honey West · 12/28/2016 10:08 pm

lara1 wrote:

Switching gears for a moment to the Red is Katarina theory, I do think some of the strongest support for that is in that final scene and Red’s reaction to what Kirk is saying . Then again Red could just be remembering Katarina through Kirk’s words and story…..because maybe his own memories of her had been wiped/replaced…..I don’t know what it was that Red said to Kirk, but it was his ace, his “get out of jail” card, his final back up plan to use if everything else failed. I tend to think that were Red “Katarina” that Kirk would not have left. The woman who Kirk says he was so in love with, who disappeared, finally returns, albeit as Red, I don’t think Kirk would just disappear. I think Kirk stared at Red in shock/disbelief, but not necessarily with recognition, as in - you are Katarina. More like, some fundamental truth had been told to him, or something that rocked the foundation of his existence. well that’s enough for tonight! LOL!

Interesting ideas. You were posting as I was writing my epic. LOL! I just wonder if Kirk never knew the whole story and that maybe Red told him that he was her brother. That would have shocked him, I think.

lara1 · 12/29/2016 12:27 am

Honey West #29 - well I think you should take to using the leaf blower more often as it certainly inspires you! LOL, just kidding of course!

interesting thoughts. I was originally thinking about suzmize13's thoughts about how "now" Red was really Katarina's brother now acting as "imposter" Red as the real Red had died. So while all that stuff could have happened between "real" Red and Katarina, "now" Red is just the teller of the tales to Kirk, so to speak. But your ideas are intriguing too. And I think either way, Red revealing to Kirk that he is Katarina's brother, whether as real Red or fake Red, would be shocking, although the former would be more so. And I do agree that its an area where network television probably would not go.

At this point I'm open to all theories though some seem more plausible to me than others. So until something is disproved, its still on my list! Like there was the possibility that Kirk was not really Liz's father, that he knew it, and was just manipulating her. Well most of that turned out to not be true, though with a twist - he actually thought he was her father but was not but did not know he was not. I think we need something similar to happen with several of the theories out there. For example, if Katarina somehow shows up, we know that Red is not Katarina. For now, that possibility for me is still out there, though for me, there are some issues with it. But still, its possible.

And I like your idea of Red somehow having katarina's memories. I think that is possible but he may not know or be aware of it. IT might explain some things, like how he seemed to be in tune with some of Katarina's thought processes (her thoughts about the pregnancy for example).

LOL!

lara1 · 12/29/2016 12:31 am

Honey West wrote:
lara1 wrote:

Switching gears for a moment to the Red is Katarina theory, I do think some of the strongest support for that is in that final scene and Red’s reaction to what Kirk is saying . Then again Red could just be remembering Katarina through Kirk’s words and story…..because maybe his own memories of her had been wiped/replaced…..I don’t know what it was that Red said to Kirk, but it was his ace, his “get out of jail” card, his final back up plan to use if everything else failed. I tend to think that were Red “Katarina” that Kirk would not have left. The woman who Kirk says he was so in love with, who disappeared, finally returns, albeit as Red, I don’t think Kirk would just disappear. I think Kirk stared at Red in shock/disbelief, but not necessarily with recognition, as in - you are Katarina. More like, some fundamental truth had been told to him, or something that rocked the foundation of his existence. well that’s enough for tonight! LOL!
Interesting ideas. You were posting as I was writing my epic. LOL! I just wonder if Kirk never knew the whole story and that maybe Red told him that he was her brother. That would have shocked him, I think.

Honey West #30 - yes, I think if what Red told Kirk was that he (Red) was Katarina's brother, that would have made Kirk stand back in shock. Also, spare Red's life. And drop the whole issue and just disappear. Kirk would have no need or want to continue anything with Red, the whole thing would have no meaning and be over for him. (Whereas if Red were katarina, its still hard for me to think Kirk would have just gone off quietly and walk right out of Red/Katarina's life. but hey who knows!)

Last edited by lara1 (12/29/2016 12:32 am)

Honey West · 12/29/2016 12:41 am

lara1 wrote:
Honey West #30 - yes, I think if what Red told Kirk was that he (Red) was Katarina's brother, that would have made Kirk stand back in shock. Also, spare Red's life. And drop the whole issue and just disappear. Kirk would have no need or want to continue anything with Red, the whole thing would have no meaning and be over for him. (Whereas if Red were katarina, its still hard for me to think Kirk would have just gone off quietly and walk right out of Red/Katarina's life. but hey who knows!)

I like that. Good idea about why Kirk would just drop it and go away (probably after seeing Dr. Shaw, of course). The other thing that makes me tend to not go for the Red is Katarina theory is the way Kirk acted and reacted towards him as a rival and home wrecker. He knew Red too well as Red. In fact, he never made any comments whatsoever about Red having changed or anything, like Naomi did. He never went there at all.

Honey West · 12/29/2016 3:11 pm

Well, whatever the true relationships turn out to be between the characters, I think we can be sure that they have only revealed the tip of the iceberg.

But I really do think that the start of all the problems was Katarina's pregnancy. How and why that was allowed to happen is a key to unlocking everything else, because it is just something that should not have been able to happen, but did. Because somebody wanted that particular baby to be born. Who and why are the big questions. But I think maybe that it took Red those first four years to discover the truth and make a plan to fix things. He thought it would work, that because there was an order to things he might succeed. He's a master strategist, after all. And by his own admission, he was arrogant in those days. (more than now? LOL!) If Red has toned down since then, he must have been truly insufferable. I still think Miles McGrath was a peek at Red at that age. And that's why he allowed McGrath to live and be captured by the FBI instead of just killing him.

Anyway, time to get the leaf blower back out. I still have a lot of work to do and things to think about!

Eastcoast · 12/30/2016 12:39 am

Well, I hope everyone has had a wonderful week and is doing well!
I have been busy, busy, busy!

I am all caught up! Re-watched everything!! I did several (6-8) episodes at a time for the most part and there is a reason for that. I was watching a few or 3-4, but my watch battery died one night and I didn't realize it! lol I had watched 7 or 8 that night of season 1 and it was 2:30 am. I wondered why I was getting so tired and it was so early... Anyway, I noticed that a lot of things pulled together a bit easier and some things that I didn't notice before seamed to pop out now that we know what we do. Cant write them all...

I am going to highlight some of the things that stood out to me. May have been mentioned before, but we all have written so much it is hard to remember.

In the Pilot, he says she was abandoned by her father and then later says he is dead. After watching everything it seamed like he meant the person he was, especially after watching Naomi say Carla no longer exists and Cape May.

He made the reference to her, "that's my girl" when she pulled some info together.

In A. Garrett, they mentioned that the blood matched Reds, sooooo, I am thinking you have his DNA and maybe at some point someone is going to run a DNA test to see if it matches any-ones.

When Tom is showing Jolene his wall I did several freeze shots and besides what I have mentioned before, I did notice that he had the Vicap number for Jolene that Red had on there. I guess she didn't notice.... That was before Liz said anything to Tom about her.

Red does say Yes to Liz when she says her father pulled her out of the flames while having his own flash backs.

In season 2,

I do wonder what Jennifer's real name is? He said her name like he was trying not to say her real one.

I was thinking if he was the one shot it is possible that he bunt her with something he was wearing that might have been on fire while he was on the floor. I wonder if Liz grew up speaking both English and Russian? I have a friend that said her parents spoke English to her since she was a baby and her grandparents spoke Spanish and she grew up knowing both. Red seamed to be a part of her life somehow and maybe this is why She called the man daddy. I had the impression that Kirk might not have been home a lot so Red was in the picture.
I have a lot of thoughts on fire night but too many to write right now.

When Liz is dreaming and Tom comes in and then Red, Tom is telling her about Red and Naomi not wanting her to know something. I did get the impression that she might have been there. Maybe she was in the closet? I don't know who was in the closet with her, but someone was hiding with her!

In Quon zhang he said both her parents were in foreign Intelligence. It does not appear that Kirk was.
Also, when Kenneth is in the car with Samar, he said to her, 'I knew we had someone on the inside but I didn't know who? So have we ever discussed that the cabal has someone on the inside?

In Karakurt, Anton Velov said Red was in the counterintelligence for many years and considered him the KGBs greatest enemy. That seamed to me to be a good reason for him not wanting anyone to know Liz is his daughter if all that is true let alone KR.

In Gregory D, when Liz tells Red, who would care that she was her daughter, I don't think it is that she would have remembered anything as a child, I think someone might wonder if she is really alive out there or not and if she was they might think Liz has contact with her somehow. And if anyone even thinks KR could be alive, kidnapping Liz would be the best way to draw her out.

In Tom C., it seamed like an odd thing to say you 'didn't want someone to be like you if you' were not talking about your child.

S-#3,
In the creepy Lady Ambrosia, he acted like he spent a lot of time with KR. He knew about how she felt. It also struck me that if she was having an affair and got pregnant while married why would she tell Red? I was thinking that Kirk was away on a long business trip and she was trying to figure out how she was going to justify the due date and talked it over with him?
Then there is the part where he said he thought he should have raised her himself...

In Cape May, if Red was shot, I wondered if KR thought he was dead? Maybe she didn't know he got out of the house? He said what made you go into the water? She said, you never killed anyone who didn't deserve it. It made me wonder if she felt like she had killed him or whoever when she caused all that commotion by bringing those men there to search for the fulcrum and they argued and he got shot.

When she said someone else was raising her daughter maybe she thought it was Sam or she may have thought someone else had her like Naomi? Who knows what she thought?

I really don't think it is just the dialog that is twisted up but I also think there are some things about the dates and the fire we don't know and we wont know until they reveal them,
We still don't know what happened to her on fire night?
Just that KR died in Jan. and then his family is killed at the end of the year and he disappears?
I have other thoughts on that too but too long for now...

Jumping ahead to the last episode, I just wondered if when She jumped over the fence and was dancing if Red was in the house at that time and saw her?? She probably knew who lived there and could have even known he was there. She was trained to target several people at once. I wish we knew who lived in the house.

As far as him being anyone else, I do keep it in mind, but everyone seams to know who he is and who doesn't change a little in 25 years? I felt like he might have gotten his plastic surgery to change his nose so his profile was different or to help with any burns on his face wherever he got them. Naomi didn't seam to have any problem thinking it was him and slapped the crap out of him!  And the woman who gave him the file in Lady Ambrosia seamed to know who he was right away with no hesitation. And last but not least, KR called him Raymond in cape may.

Well, I know this was longer than I thought I had energy for. But it has been a while...

And welcome to anyone new!!

Last edited by Eastcoast (12/30/2016 12:43 am)

Tuxie400 · 12/30/2016 11:29 am

Eastcoast - Happy Holidays! I'm impressed you were about to rewatch it all, but then you had a "watch" malfunction that gave you more time. LOL I think whether Red another family besides Carla and Jennifer is the thing I wonder about the most. And you may be right about Red wanting to call Jennifer by another name. Perhaps she is the other Elizabeth.

Honey West · 12/30/2016 4:04 pm

Wow, eastcoast, I am impressed! I had planned to watch all of them before Jan 5th, but RL got in the way so last night I finally made it through The Front. But I totally agree with you that things jump out that didn't before and I maybe it's because I am watching them with what should be a confirmation of what I always suspected. I am wondering if, going forward, maybe Red will admit the truth to Liz. That would certainly stop her from going to extremes trying to get away from him again. Of course, even if he did admit it, he could refuse to tell her anything else. And that would be just as crazy for her, because that is what she really wants to know. She has "accepted" that her father died in the fire, but only because Red has said so. She still doesn't know why or what happened and has a lot of missing pieces in her past. Like what is her importance to Red other than being his daughter, because I think we can be pretty sure there is something else.

I agree with your comments and points in #35. My main questions are:
1. when did Red discover that Liz was his
2. when did he find out the truth about Katarina's KGB connection
3. She had fallen in love with him, but did he also fall in love with her
4. We know how Red reacts to betrayal since his credo is to value loyalty above all else (just saw that one again) and how he dealt with Kate. What happened when he discovered that Katarina was KGB and had spied on him and maybe gotten some secrets out of him? Did he view that as the ultimate betrayal? Did she become "a stranger to him"? Did he try to kill her and maybe she whispered to him "Masha is your daughter"? In any case I think that's when he became the KGB's greatest enemy.

That's an interesting idea that maybe Red was in the house when she was dancing. Maybe he happened to look out the window and saw her, a chance thing that sets the stage for future intrigue and tragedy? But we know that happened near the beginning of her involvement with Konstantin and I didn't think they were married yet. But it still could've happened.

I had the idea that when "Katarina" was talking about someone else raising her daughter that was Red talking about Sam raising Liz. After all, all of the things that she was saying were really his thoughts.

Anyway, like you, I have a lot of ideas about things, but with so many missing pieces it's mostly still just conjecture at this point.

lara1 · 12/30/2016 6:37 pm

So here's some real life kind of mixing with TBL - as part of the current US/Russia diplomatic moves, you may have heard that two Russian diplomatic residences are being closed. It so happens that one of them is in Upper Brookville, NY, on Long Island's North Shore "gold coast" - where the show has filmed various scenes at various nearby locations - most recently Redemption was filmed at a state park and mansion not too far from there.

Edited to clarify: the show has filmed at locations nearby, not at the Brookville residence.... LOL

Last edited by lara1 (12/30/2016 6:39 pm)

Honey West · 12/30/2016 7:18 pm

lara1 wrote:
So here's some real life kind of mixing with TBL - as part of the current US/Russia diplomatic moves, you may have heard that two Russian diplomatic residences are being closed. It so happens that one of them is in Upper Brookville, NY, on Long Island's North Shore "gold coast" - where the show has filmed various scenes at various nearby locations - most recently Redemption was filmed at a state park and mansion not too far from there.

Edited to clarify: the show has filmed at locations nearby, not at the Brookville residence.... LOL

Life imitating art? LOL!
Yes, I've been following the Russian stuff. The Cold War never really ended you know. It was just wishful thinking that it had.

lara1 · 12/30/2016 8:32 pm

eastcoast #35 - impressed that you got through the entire series in such a short period of time! But then again - it seems like maybe you were on "Blacklist time" ! LOL.

I've made little progress this time around but at least I re-watched the entire series fairly recently, ending in Mid September - and during that re-watch I made notes of every piece of dialog and every action of Red's that I thought was "paternal", so I will definitely be reviewing those before next week!

I agree with a lot of what you said, here are some further thoughts:

"When Tom is showing Jolene his wall I did several freeze shots and besides what I have mentioned before, I did notice that he had the Vicap number for Jolene that Red had on there. I guess she didn't notice.... That was before Liz said anything to Tom about her". - I never noticed that. So - How did Tom know that?

Jennifer - I might be the only one but for some reason I thought Jennifer to be the real name. The reason being, In all the scenes with Naomi, Red calls her Carla not Naomi, or refers to her as Carla when talking to Frank (at least that is what I remember - did I get that wrong?!.) Red has private discussions with Naomi about Jennifer. I think if he had a relationship with Jennifer (meaning father, step father, similar), he'd call her by her real name not her alias in private chats with Carla. What I can't remember is how Liz refers to her (Jennifer) when Liz hands Red the FBI file, does she even refer to Jennifer by name, or just refers to her as "your daughter"..... Which brings me back to the earlier scene where Liz has Red on the phone and he is in the car and has the file full of drivers license copies, one of which is Naomi’s, which Liz wants him to look through. He more or less immediately knows that the one for Naomi is that of his former wife. So has he known all along what her witness protection identity was? hmmm. I didn’t take it that Red was that surprised by the info that Liz found on Jennifer, more annoyed that the FBI had lost all tabs on her (Jennifer) when she disappeared in 2007. So he had no leads on her possible whereabouts.

"Also, when Kenneth is in the car with Samar, he said to her, 'I knew we had someone on the inside but I didn't know who? So have we ever discussed that the cabal has someone on the inside? " - Its interesting that you mention that - at the time I assumed the inside person was Tom Connelly, the AG, who by then was dropping around the Post Office fairly regularly - but suppose he (Kenneth) meant someone on the task force? hmmm

"Jumping ahead to the last episode, I just wondered if when She jumped over the fence and was dancing if Red was in the house at that time and saw her?? She probably knew who lived there and could have even known he was there. She was trained to target several people at once. I wish we knew who lived in the house. ". - That is interesting. It does make me wonder - we have looked into the case study house insofar as its connected to Katarina, but should we be looking into it as a link to Red? As I recall a couple of the case study houses which seemed to fit the bill most closely were not that far from Santa Monica. Someone in the group (sorry can't recall who!) had mentioned that when Red buys the FBI woman a house and "exiles" her there (agh I can't remember the episode, its where she is kidnapped to give info on Red), he says to her as he gives her the paperwork on it that the view of the Pacific is magnificent, something like that - leading me to think that he had been there, once. And - did he actually buy the FBI woman a "new" house, or did he give her a house that he already owned there......didn't he just mention something like here's the deed to a house, the taxes will be paid annually, something like that? .a stretch but could it have been the case study house?hmmmmm

"As far as him being anyone else, I do keep it in mind, but everyone seams to know who he is and who doesn't change a little in 25 years? I felt like he might have gotten his plastic surgery to change his nose so his profile was different or to help with any burns on his face wherever he got them. Naomi didn't seam to have any problem thinking it was him and slapped the crap out of him!  And the woman who gave him the file in Lady Ambrosia seamed to know who he was right away with no hesitation. And last but not least, KR called him Raymond in cape may." - I still think from time to time that Red may be someone else - more a gut feeling that anything else, since all of the other major characters seem to have more than one main identity - but my preferred idea is that Reddington itself is a manufactured identity that he took on, not that he is necessarily impersonating someone else, but stepped into the shoes of a fake created identity....time will tell, LOL

Have a happy New Year's Eve tomorrow, everyone!

Last edited by lara1 (12/30/2016 8:45 pm)