The Blacklist Refugees » Who, what, when, why, where

Honey West · 5/20/2018 12:47 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
Honey West - The carpet story is real - just not Red's. It's a personal story of John Fox, one of the show's producers.

Sort of like the John Waters story is Jon Bokenkamp's.

Honey West · 5/20/2018 1:33 pm

I think the plot to keep RR alive after the fire began shortly after he died. Katarina said, and Liz’s memories confirm there were a few people there that night. Supposedly she had followed them to get Masha back after RR kidnapped her and took her to the US. We don’t know who all was there. There could have been Russians, Cabal, etc. We know Masha got somebody’s gun, maybe it was Red's gun, and shot her father. There was a fire and the house burned down. A body was recovered. Everyone else escaped, but at least one was badly burned and out of commission for awhile. This is our current Red. I am thinking that the body of the real RR was identified as him. And he was "identified" as RR. These things would have taken a little time to do because presumably the body was burned beyond recognition and needed dental and/or DNA to identify it. Meanwhile, the burned man in the hospital was probably the cliched "man under the bandages" and nobody knew who he was. Perhaps, due to his burns, they couldn’t even check his fingerprints. So somebody decided that this would be a perfect opportunity to swap identities between the two men. If the Cabal was involved, or even just the CIA and KGB, I’m sure the resources existed to swap out any DNA or dental records, or even fingerprints.
By the time the bandages come off, he has had some plastic surgery; maybe he even resembled RR slightly from the beginning. Anyway, he finally goes home to Carla and she probably figures out he’s not RR, but they need her to "accept" him if they are to pull it off. Maybe they threatened Jennifer if she didn’t cooperate.

I haven’t gotten much further with my noodling than that. But I lean towards the deception being facilitated by the Dom Oleander Group. And if Red is not actually Katarina herself, then he is a close friend or relative of that family. He went with her to confront RR. He was nearby before and during her pregnancy. She confided in him. Maybe he was in love with her. Maybe he was her evil twin? LOL!

KathyN · 5/20/2018 5:22 pm

Honey West wrote:
That’s a lot of what I was thinking, KathyN. Bravo! Except I had been looking at it purely as a Cold War US vs USSR thing. But I like how you factored in the Cabal. I hadn’t gotten round to them yet.

Honey West, it was your posts on the episode theread that got me thinking about the Cabal being involved in the first place so it was an undercurrent even if you hadn't identified it yet!

Expanding on what you just posted: I don't remember the original timeline. Was the fire the same year as Reddington disappeared at the side of the road? If it's not the same year, I agree, Red dies in the fire, FakeRed came with Katarina and was left behind badly burned. Katarina had to get Masha out and couldn't stay for him.   The Cabal people weren't too far behind Katarina's team and got to the house in time to pull out FakeRed and Reddington's dead body. They patched up FakeRed and gave him the Reddington identity so that he could use Reddington's identity to recover the fulcrum for them, access the people and places that Red was involved with. [editing to add: or maybe Katarina's people dragged out RealRed so as not to leave any evidence that Masha shot him (explains how they had the bones) and left FakeRed behind and the cabal was simply mixed up and patched up FakeRed as RealRed not knowing at that time he wasn't RealRed; FakeRed as an Oleander spy could have easily fell in line and kept up the charade once he realized the Cabal was confused.] I like the idea that he went home to Carla with the bandages all over his body and face and she figured out it was an imposter and somehow was coerced to keep the secret. Maybe fakeRed opened up to her later and told her more than the Cabal did once they established a trust between them so she knew the whole Masha story and what really happened to her husband that night.

To summarize: what if the night of the fire, the Cabal sent some agents to the house to recover the fulcrum, but Katarina showed up first with a few of her people (as we heard from Liz's memories of the night). When the Cabal got there, in the confusion they assumed burned passed out fakeRed was one of theirs when in fact he was one of Katarina's.   And it was only later they figured it out - which meant he had the US after him as well as the KGB who also figured out that he was alive and living as an American spy. When FakeRussianRed realized his story was blown, and that the two most powerful countries were after him, he went underground and told the Cabal he had the fulcrum (we now know he actually did not have it) and held it over their head that he would release it unless they left him alone. He then abandoned his fake family at the side of the road to save their lives. They weren't his real family anyway so not a big deal to him, or Carla, just poor Jennifer who never knew the truth.

Now if fakeRed is Katarina, she screwed up because she got too close to RealRed and in her carelessness let him steal the fulcrum from her (after she stole it from the Cabal for the Russians). Then she allowed herself to become an american man and have her child raised by a stranger - maybe Dom never forgave her for any of that and his relationship with Redorina is now strained because of it. (I doubt this which is why I lean against Redorina, but I do see it as a very real possibility the writers are going that way).    If fakeRed was a russian who went with Katarina to the house to retrieve the fulcrum, he could have been her brother or just an Oleander spy who was very close to the family. And maybe he screwed up because maybe he's the one who was careless with the fulcrum and with Masha that night allowing RealRed to get access to both. (maybe he was watching the baby the night she was kidnapped and wasn't able to stop RealRed.) And maybe he's blamed himself ever since. Which would explain why he's been watching out for Liz all these years - it was his fault she was kidnapped in the first place. (?!)

Last edited by KathyN (5/20/2018 5:37 pm)

deadskie13 · 5/20/2018 5:53 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
Iowa Watcher - I'll agree that he's Russian. The only way Red is Liz's biological father and not the real RR would be if that is Seaduke's blood on the shirt.

Tuxie400! That is super smart! Of course it's so easy to assume that it's original Red's blood on the shirt.

Eastcoast · 5/20/2018 10:43 pm

KathyN, enjoyed the post. I do not know if you know this already, but we have a Timeline under the History section. We keep it short and sweet so it is not hard to find something.
According to what we know so far Red disappeared about 10 months or so after the fire.

Eastcoast · 5/21/2018 10:55 am

So here are a few things I was thinking about before I go off the RL for a while.

1, Red talking to Zoey when he said he had 'a daughter' not 2 daughters.

2, In the pilot when they were going over Liz's digital footprint trying to see if she
has any connection to Reddington, why didn't they make the connection to Jennifer?
Liz had her DNA in the system. They never said, 'you have a sister who is in Protective Custody?'

(writer flubs?)

I have had in the back of my mind since Season 1 when I saw the house blow up that he
might have lost a daughter and he has adopted Liz as his own to make up for that gap
in his life. Being there for her the same way Garvey was for Jennifer.

Last edited by Eastcoast (5/21/2018 10:55 am)

Honey West · 5/21/2018 11:29 am

Eastcoast wrote:
So here are a few things I was thinking about before I go off the RL for a while.

1, Red talking to Zoey when he said he had 'a daughter' not 2 daughters.

2, In the pilot when they were going over Liz's digital footprint trying to see if she
has any connection to Reddington, why didn't they make the connection to Jennifer?
Liz had her DNA in the system. They never said, 'you have a sister who is in Protective Custody?'

(writer flubs?)

I have had in the back of my mind since Season 1 when I saw the house blow up that he
might have lost a daughter and he has adopted Liz as his own to make up for that gap
in his life. Being there for her the same way Garvey was for Jennifer.

No, I don’t think they were writer flubs. I think Red had a daughter. I think Reds DNA replaced RRs official DNA in the database. So Jennifer and Liz would show up as related to RR and each other if that old RR dna was still in the official file. Somehow Harold knew to go get that thirty year old shirt for his test. Why is my biggest unanswered question where he is concerned. And yes I agree about him losing his own daughter and Liz filling in that hole in his life. I think that daughter and the rest of his family was his lost family, that Diane Fowler knew the answers about.

Tuxie400 · 5/21/2018 11:48 am

Eastcoast wrote:
So here are a few things I was thinking about before I go off the RL for a while.

1, Red talking to Zoey when he said he had 'a daughter' not 2 daughters.

2, In the pilot when they were going over Liz's digital footprint trying to see if she
has any connection to Reddington, why didn't they make the connection to Jennifer?
Liz had her DNA in the system. They never said, 'you have a sister who is in Protective Custody?'

(writer flubs?)

#1 bolsters the Redarina theory for me.

#2 Would Liz's DNA have been in CODIS in the pilot? I'm sure it would when she was a federal fugitive and prisoner. I started thinking about that over the weekend. If Garvey did put Jennifer's DNA in CODIS and flagged it as a way to try to capture or neutralize RR. why didn't it also tag Liz's DNA, if both are really daughters of Bonesie RR? As a federal prisoner, Liz's DNA should have been in CODIS. Wouldn't the DNA connection have made Garvey interested in Elizabeth Keen, and shouldn't he have known who she was? Either something's rotten in the state of Blacklist, or the writers forgot that Liz's DNA should be in CODIS. It's so frustrating that the writers didn't let Red finish his sentence, "I am not ...", or explain what Bonesie's DNA report said.

Tessa's theory now is that only proves Jennifer's father is the bones, and that Red could still be original RR. My gut feeling though is RR is really dead and Jennifer is his real kid. So are Jennifer and Liz sisters? I want to see a DNA report on that! LOL

Honey West · 5/21/2018 12:31 pm

That’s what I love about this show. They leave it so wide open even after giving us a big reveal.

Tatiana · 5/21/2018 12:52 pm

Honey West - I wouldn't be surprised if in the grande finale the story still supports Redarina, multiple personality disorder, MK Ultra, LIzzington (hey, not on this board though!) ad infinitum! lol

lara1 · 5/21/2018 3:37 pm

Tuxie400 - - I think its pretty clear that the bones are the real RR and that Red is an imposter.

I think the "real" RR was Jennifer's father, not "Red". although then why exactly Garvey was protecting Jennifer from "RR" isn't clear - unless it was from the "criminal" "RR", ie "Red", whom Garvey never knew was not the real one. We know whoever had blood on the shirt is Liz's father, but we don't know for sure whether the tiny piece of the shirt that Cooper clipped was RR's blood or not.

Anyone have any thoughts on whether Naomi knew "Red" was not the real "RR". I think she knew and she traded her daughter's security for not saying anything to the authorities. something like that. So maybe the charade with Garvey had to continue? not sure.

5/21/2018 3:52 pm

Naomi definitely confuses me now. I think she knew Red wasn't really Raymond Reddington. And if he died in that fire, it seems likely she helped to cover up his death. And she clearly knew about Liz, but how? JB said in an interview that if he were Liz, he'd start looking into Naomi Hyland's death. So I imagine she'll look into that since Jennifer is in on this mystery solving mission with her. I thought Red seemed genuinely surprised by Naomi being dead, but I guess it could have been an act. I've also wondered if Garvey could have approached Naomi about it and when she told him she knew about it all he killed her, particularly if she refused to tell him the full story.

Tuxie400 · 5/21/2018 4:01 pm

I think Naomi definitely knew our Red was not the real RR. Because of the bargain they made. I also think she helped FRed cover up the real RR's death. I don't think FRed killed her because he was too surprised about the tombstone and expected Jennifer to take him to Naomi.

We never found out who did Liz's second memory wipe. But it was someone looking out for FRed. Could that same person be the one who murdered Naomi?

Last edited by Tuxie400 (5/21/2018 4:03 pm)

5/21/2018 4:10 pm

I really hope we get the memory wipe information this next season. That has been making me crazy since season 4. And Krilov is away in federal prison, so why doesn't Liz ask to have him restore her memories? Or at least pass information on to that Dr. Orchard woman to see if she could do it. Red claimed to not have hired him again, and i've tended to believe that. I used to think Tom maybe did it. But what about Cooper? I'm back to some waffling on what all I think he might know or suspect. Or Dembe? He thinks Liz deserves the truth but his loyalty lies with Red.

5/21/2018 4:55 pm

In the Director Conclusion, Peter What's-his-face says to Red "I know who you really are, Raymond. Who you are to her. And I know why you did this. Does she?"

Do you think the Director knew who he really was, not just that he was an imposter, but his former identity and relationship to Liz? He wasn't mentioned as part of the people who died, though he also didn't make any effort to give Liz the truth, so maybe didn't count. He was also someone who apparently knew Katarina in person because he had commented on how much Liz looked like her.

deadskie13 · 5/21/2018 8:03 pm

Eastcoast wrote:
Honey West wrote:
The Major ran sort of a school for spies. Taking youngsters off the streets who seemed to have potential, and training them. Perhaps Oleander had a similar operation. If he didn’t, then he likely knew someone who did, and had a source for his operatives. I guess until we learn more specifics about Oleander, we are still only speculating. Meanwhile it raises the related question of why was it necessary to replace RR at all? If he was killed, so what, just another casualty of the Cold War.

I like this HW.
I still want to know what the mess is that Red made of everything tht Dom blames him for.

I wonder if our Red accidentally messed everything up, by trying to make everything better.

What I mean is, what if he's Katarina's brother, and part of her double-cross deal was that her family gets to live in the U.S. So our Red and Dom were already here when the real Reddington snatched Masha, and brought her over. Our Red pinpoints where they're at, alerts Katarina, and they move in--and then everything falls apart.

You try to save your family, and you end up destroying it. I can see how a parent would be unable to move past that, despite realizing that the chances for any other outcome are slim-to-none. You blame the kiddo you still have, because there's no point in being angry with the dead. It's sort of like the same reason Elizabeth is angry at Red instead of Tom--because yelling at a ghost will only drive you mad.

deadskie13 · 5/21/2018 8:26 pm

How many people do we think originally knew that our Red was not the Red? To start with the obvious, we've got Dembe, Mr. Kaplan, Sam, and Dom--but are there any other takers? Maybe Baz, just for posterity, and because we all miss him?

I'm not 100% sold that Naomi/Carla would have known--it would have depended on their previous encounter before the whole Berlin deal--but at the same time, it's one of those tightrope deals where I feel like I could easily be swayed. Let me look at it another five seconds, and I'll be nodding saying yeah--yeah, of course she knew! But I blame that on all the good writing, and not my inability to make up my mind. Not at all.

I don't think anyone in the Cabal knew the deal, otherwise they would have used that info to destroy him, once all the cards were on the table, and they were backed into the wall so nice and neatly, with nowhere to run. But I don't know. It's one of those head-tilting deals, truly.

Regardless, I think the list of people that originally knew the truth was remarkably small, because our boy was working very hard to keep such a deep secret. At the same time, though, he would have needed some help to make the switch--especially since it most likely occurred before pre-Dembe.

Hmm...

deadskie13 · 5/21/2018 8:31 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
I think Naomi definitely knew our Red was not the real RR. Because of the bargain they made. I also think she helped FRed cover up the real RR's death. I don't think FRed killed her because he was too surprised about the tombstone and expected Jennifer to take him to Naomi.

We never found out who did Liz's second memory wipe. But it was someone looking out for FRed. Could that same person be the one who murdered Naomi?

I don't think our Red killed Naomi, either. I think in his book, he owed her, and owed her big--and our Red may be a monster, but he does have his own moral compass.

Also, I don't know if I necessarily believe that Naomi is dead. Maybe I've just become paranoid, but I feel like we should grab some shovels, do some digging, and run a few DNA tests first. ::narrows eyes as everything has suddenly gone suspicious::

Eastcoast · 5/22/2018 1:46 am

Enjoying the comments from everyone!

I started my re-watch and I decided to do it differently this time. I would recommend that everyone try this one thing. I wanted to watch it with a timeline in mind to see if my ideas would be the same or different.
So I watched The Requiem first. This way I had the background before he turned himself in.
I watched the parts with her as a child and the part just before Red turns himself in. I have seen it more than a dozen times and I have my notes, but it really all seams different when you watch it before the Pilot as opposed to just having it in mind. I actually I watched the first 3 episodes after it.
I do not have time to post all my thoughts right now, but let me know if you try this and what you think.

5/22/2018 6:33 am

I hope Liz continues to dig into Dom/Oleander’s connection to the secret. I’m not sure if she believed him or not. But I feel like if she and Aram can connect the same place with where Aram found Red in season 3 after Liz died, it will start exposing Dom’s truth and start to unravel things. Because I think Dom is bulletproof. I don’t think Red would ever hurt him. And if anyone might break and give Liz the truth it might be him.