The Blacklist Refugees » The Post-Revelation Re-Watch Thread

Honey West · 11/18/2016 1:21 pm

Tom's "so it worked then" question/comment was that since Red was at his door and looked okay that the presentation of the evidence that Dr. Shaw really could save Kirk worked and he let Red go in exchange. Red's "answer" of yes only confirmed part of it, of course. Red was not going to tell Tom that it really didn't work and he had to play his ace in the hole to get out of there alive. But since he obviously survived he could still answer yes without going into the details. No main cast folks were witness to what was really going on, and we can be sure Red won't talk about it. And I doubt Dr Reiffler or Lucille Bockes will say anything either, or Kirk's people.
I still can't get over how completely stunned Kirk is by whatever Red told him. And Red just stares at him, like, yeah that's how bad it really is. Kind of made me think of Red looking at the Rostova file and saying "It's worse than I thought." We've been told that we won't know what exactly Red said to Kirk, but it would become clear what it was about later on.

Anyway, I hope to get back to my series rewatch later this weekend. I haven't gotten very far, only the first two episodes!

lara1 · 11/18/2016 1:48 pm

Honey West wrote:
.....No main cast folks were witness to what was really going on, and we can be sure Red won't talk about it. And I doubt Dr Reiffler or Lucille Bockes will say anything either, or Kirk's people.
I still can't get over how completely stunned Kirk is by whatever Red told him. And Red just stares at him, like, yeah that's how bad it really is. Kind of made me think of Red looking at the Rostova file and saying "It's worse than I thought." We've been told that we won't know what exactly Red said to Kirk, but it would become clear what it was about later on.

Anyway, I hope to get back to my series rewatch later this weekend. I haven't gotten very far, only the first two episodes!

Good points, Honey West. I don't think anyone was there, Kirk chased them all away, and then, assuming Shaw did save Kirk's life, the doctors will not say anything. I kind of think Shaw did, as Red and Kirk ran off so quickly, Red forgot his hat. I wonder, if Kirk's life was saved, did Red give him a new identity so that he could disappear? Red said to Liz that "he's gone. It's over". "kirk" won't be coming back but maybe he is someone else now.

Whatever Red said to Kirk, it had a direct impact on him - making him choose to live, and let Red live. I think whatever Red said, it was a longish explanation. It wasn't just a word or phrase. He's saying a bunch of things to him. My opinion of course.

Eastcoast · 11/18/2016 11:12 pm

I see now, thanks for pointing that out.

I saw a new video on NBC, I posted it under the links.

It showed more of Reds scaring from burns on his back then it did in the original.
Seeing that did make me wonder if the plastic surgery he had could have been because of the burns, maybe they
were also on his face?

lara1 · 11/19/2016 12:37 pm

Eastcoast, i agree, it shows more of Red's back and his right arm which is more than what we saw in the original episode. Its possible the scarring went up his neck and then maybe part of his face.

Honey West · 11/21/2016 3:44 am

Posted on Return of WYD, but finally got to "Wujing" tonight. Basically the first time Red has to directly step in and kill somebody to save Liz. She's uncomfortable with that action and lets him know. That leads to her getting to ask him a question, which is the scene in the car. He doesn't say "It's complicated", but that's the gist of the conversation over whether he knew her father, because that's the answer to her "Why me?" question, "Because of your father." So I guess Wujing is the beginning of That Question.

lara1 · 11/21/2016 10:13 am

Honey West wrote:
Posted on Return of WYD, but finally got to "Wujing" tonight. Basically the first time Red has to directly step in and kill somebody to save Liz. She's uncomfortable with that action and lets him know. That leads to her getting to ask him a question, which is the scene in the car. He doesn't say "It's complicated", but that's the gist of the conversation over whether he knew her father, because that's the answer to her "Why me?" question, "Because of your father." So I guess Wujing is the beginning of That Question.

Hi Honey West. Well you are a couple of episodes ahead of me! LOL. I really liked Wujing, because we started to see that Red would do anything to keep Liz safe.

Its interesting but I thinking about it, I don't think that Red actually ever said "its complicated" to Liz. I know he says it to others (Dom, Zoe, probably others) and other say it to him (Anglo Garrick) but I think Red usually says "it is't that simple" or "it isn't quite so simple" something like that. Which again is kind of like another mirror image: father/daughter; complicated/not simple.

The more I think about it, the more mirror images I see. LOL they are everywhere!!

Tuxie400 · 11/21/2016 12:11 pm

In rewatching the pilot, I noticed Ressler said Red was identified by tattos and fingerprints. While tattos would likely be easy to reproduce, I wondered about fingerprints. The only way the mommy theory or the imposter theory would work is if this is possible. I did some research. While criminals have used all kinds of methods to alter their fingerprints - burning, acid, and cutting them off, there are no real examples I could find of someone taking another person's prints. However, there is speculation that the lasers used in plastic surgery could remove prints. Could plastic surgery also craft new ones to replace burned or removed ones. I couldn't find any real cases like this. But if the show is going for one of these imposter answers, there will have to be a Blacklister coming up who can give a person different fingerprints.

But could Red faking the fingerprints be as simple as this?
http://www.wikihow.com/Fake-Fingerprints

Here's a link from 2015 with the FBI warning that fingerprints are no longer reliable forms of ID.
http://www.forensicmag.com/article/2015/05/fbi-warns-about-altered-fingerprints

Last edited by Tuxie400 (11/21/2016 12:35 pm)

Honey West · 11/21/2016 2:28 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
In rewatching the pilot, I noticed Ressler said Red was identified by tattos and fingerprints. While tattos would likely be easy to reproduce, I wondered about fingerprints. The only way the mommy theory or the imposter theory would work is if this is possible. I did some research. While criminals have used all kinds of methods to alter their fingerprints - burning, acid, and cutting them off, there are no real examples I could find of someone taking another person's prints. However, there is speculation that the lasers used in plastic surgery could remove prints. Could plastic surgery also craft new ones to replace burned or removed ones. I couldn't find any real cases like this. But if the show is going for one of these imposter answers, there will have to be a Blacklister coming up who can give a person different fingerprints.

But could Red faking the fingerprints be as simple as this?
http://www.wikihow.com/Fake-Fingerprints

Here's a link from 2015 with the FBI warning that fingerprints are no longer reliable forms of ID.
http://www.forensicmag.com/article/2015/05/fbi-warns-about-altered-fingerprints

Tuxie400, I think that goes along with DNA not always being a reliable identifier, such as with a chimera. Rare, but not impossible. Now we just need them to give us that Blacklister who does fingerprints! (wink)

lara1 · 11/21/2016 3:03 pm

Am I totally mis-remembering but in DeVry, did they match a tattoo and fingerprints to what they had on file for Red? I'm assuming that when Red surrendered, they matched his prints to those ones on file from 1989.

I know in Devry they said that they didn't have any DNA for Red pre-1990 which to me was kind of a red flag. But did they ever identify DeVry in any way? I just can't remember!

I mean, I know DeVry was not Reddington, and I don't think the FBI thought so either - I'm just trying to remember what means, if any, the FBI used to itry to dentify him.

Last edited by lara1 (11/21/2016 3:07 pm)

Honey West · 11/21/2016 4:29 pm

lara1 wrote:
Am I totally mis-remembering but in DeVry, did they match a tattoo and fingerprints to what they had on file for Red? I'm assuming that when Red surrendered, they matched his prints to those ones on file from 1989.

I know in Devry they said that they didn't have any DNA for Red pre-1990 which to me was kind of a red flag. But did they ever identify DeVry in any way? I just can't remember!

I mean, I know DeVry was not Reddington, and I don't think the FBI thought so either - I'm just trying to remember what means, if any, the FBI used to itry to dentify him.

No, in Gregory DeVry they only mention using DNA and they don't have any on file for Reddington from when he disappeared in 1990. They don't mention tattoos or fingerprints. But they do mention matching tattoos and fingerprints in the Pilot. The only thing DeVry had was a lot of classified information that only Reddington would know. And of course since Reddington fed it to him to set him up as an imposter, that made sense when he told Liz about it at the end.
That is an interesting point, though, because if they had his prints on file from March 1989 why didn't they use those? Plus every time we've seen any Reddington files onscreen they've always had a set of fingerprints, usually with an older photo of him. Don't they trust the fingerprints? Hmmmm.

lara1 · 11/21/2016 5:14 pm

Honey West #30 - yes exactly. Maybe they thought if "real red" had fingerprints that matched what was in the file, then Devry couldnt have the same. So real red and the matching fingerprints were both an aligned identity - real or fake.

It makes me wonder whether the fingerprints are fake, or if they are real, match real red but the identity itself is a deep cover fake. Perhaps the real reddington was caught, compromised or killed in the spy game so the gov put together another

Then again perhaps none of that is true! But i do think the date of the fingerprints in the file is interesting

(LOL this series has made me into a real conspiracy theorist! Luckily it happens to be fun!)

Last edited by lara1 (11/21/2016 5:17 pm)

Honey West · 11/23/2016 12:16 am

Okay, I did manage to watch The Stewmaker last night and also looked at the Beyond the Blacklist extras on disc 1. One thing that strikes me about The Stewmaker is that we have Liz in terrible danger, but Red just acts fairly unconcerned. Up until the very end, after Red has killed Kornish, when we have the following exchange:
Liz: You're no better than him.
Red: You gonna tell on me, Lizzie? Tell Harold how bad I've been?
Liz: You're a monster.
Red: Yes.
Liz: How can you live with that?
Red: By saving your life.

And in the extras I did get a good look at the Reddington file with the fingerprints And the date March 1989. It has occurred to me that would be right around Liz's 4th birthday. The question would be why did they put together this file with his fingerprints right about then? Could it have been because he was being sent on some sort of dangerous or one-way mission and they wanted to be able to identify him, or his body, if they needed to? We know that sometime between then and December he took Masha away and it seems that Katarina followed him, if we believe what Kirk said, and I see no reason not to. The Fulcrum seems to come into play during this time as well. A good question is what prompted Red to take Masha at this time, and not anytime during the past four years. Did something suddenly put her in danger? How was the Cabal involved? If the initials AF seem to be on the file, I also wonder, like lara1, if that was Alan Fitch. Did Fitch send him on a mission? And was it supposed to be a one-way mission? Fitch does go on about how many people he sent to their deaths over the years. Anyway, I am getting away from The Stewmaker, but the Extras are also included as fair game for discussion on this thread.

lara1 · 11/23/2016 9:05 am

Honey west #32 - my thoughts exactly on the fingerprints. Something is up. I never even looked at the date until deadskie13, I think, pointed out Red's address on those prints and Tuxie400 commented on the unusal address/location. Nowhere near Tacoma Park, Bethesda etc. In the Elizabeth Keen dossier, they are given a full page in the book. And the date is - very interesting.

On Stewmaker, one thing I noticed in general when re-watching Season 1 over the summer (after not having seen the episodes since around the time they aired) was how much more menacing Red comes across in Season 1. I think you may have picked up on that a bit with noting his demeanor in The Stewmaker. What do you think? I think he was not quite evil, just - well threatening and scary. As compared to say Season 3. Maybe in part its because we now have the benefit of having seen more aspects of him, how much he cares for Liz etc. But I think he was a bit mean and scary in Season 1.

just my opinion of course….. Back to cooking!

Last edited by lara1 (11/23/2016 9:07 am)

Honey West · 11/23/2016 3:33 pm

lara1 wrote:
What do you think? I think he was not quite evil, just - well threatening and scary. As compared to say Season 3. Maybe in part its because we now have the benefit of having seen more aspects of him, how much he cares for Liz etc. But I think he was a bit mean and scary in Season 1.

just my opinion of course….. Back to cooking!

LOL! Yes, on the re-watch I think I can safely say that, to me anyway, many times he comes across as borderline-creepy. And definitely more menacing. I may get a chance to watch one more today, in between kitchen work, that is! I think that's The Courier and it's the last one on Disc 1.

I have an idea about the fingerprints and some other things, but I will put it on a more appropriate page, probably somewhere in "General". I've cut it out from here and saved it so I don't lose it! You'll have to let me know if it sounds reasonable.

Laocoon · 11/23/2016 4:01 pm

Fingerprints. Hmm. Intriguing, definitely. It's possible also that the database was hacked and the fingerprints substituted. We've seen many examples of clever hacking. I could also agree with the deep cover scenario.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

Honey West · 11/29/2016 11:46 am

In my rewatch I finally go to Anslo Garrick last night but didn't finish watching it because it was getting too late. But I also watched General Ludd. I decided to look into Takoma Park a bit more than I had in the past and did you all realize it's about five miles as the crow flies from Bethesda? So I suspect it may have had a closer past connection with Red's "weird little apartment" filled with those Russian things.

lara1 · 11/29/2016 12:05 pm

Honey West wrote:
In my rewatch I finally go to Anslo Garrick last night but didn't finish watching it because it was getting too late. But I also watched General Ludd. I decided to look into Takoma Park a bit more than I had in the past and did you all realize it's about five miles as the crow flies from Bethesda? So I suspect it may have had a closer past connection with Red's "weird little apartment" filled with those Russian things.

Hi Honey West. That's interesting about Takoma Park's proximity to Bethesda.

One of the interesting things I found when I originally looked up information on Takoma Park, is its history of political activism. And in 1983 Takoma Park declared itself a "nuclear free zone" in common with some other US cities. That seemed to me to be a possibly unusual location for a Naval intelligence officer, possible dealing with aspects of the US nuclear program, to make his home. Or maybe the opposite. Please understand, I'm not commenting or criticizing the pros/cons of a nuclear free zone, just that it got my interest when I read about it. Of all the towns to choose for Red's home where he said he raised his family. Made me think again whether Red had two different identities/homes etc. Or maybe it was just a question of location and affordability. I think its interesting, though.

Attached is an article on Takoma Park's nuclear free zone that I found when I re-searched it just now.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/md-politics/takoma-park-grants-waiver-to-nuclear-free-zone-ordinance/2012/06/19/gJQADMB2oV_story.html

Chompstick · 11/29/2016 2:00 pm

Hello Everyone!

Your former fearless leader here. I haven't been watching the show at all, but I wanted to stop by to say hello and tell you I miss all of you. My life has normalized some, my husband has recovered well, and we're just crossing our fingers for a healthy future.

I haven't decided whether or not I'll watch Redemption. It's kind of a relief not to be addicted to a show. Yes, I know you're all wondering how I could desert my lover boy Tom! I'll continue to stop by periodically. I haven't checked to see if you have an active Off-Topic thread.

I hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving and makes it through the crazy holiday season without going insane.

Chompie

lara1 · 11/29/2016 2:15 pm

Hi Chompstick! How very nice to hear from you!

I am glad to hear that things have calmed a little bit for you and that your husband has recovered well.

Hope you had a lovely Thanksgiving and all the best for the upcoming holiday season

Lara

Tuxie400 · 11/29/2016 2:23 pm

Hi Chompstick!
So nice to hear from you! Hope things stay healthy and calm with you and yours. Have a lovely holiday season!