Honey West wrote:

Iowa Watcher, I was just thinking that same thing - I need to watch the Pilot again, too.

lara1, it was a lot of things that we had sort of discussed on the old board. Now we have a little more information for putting some of those ideas together. But there's still a lot we don't know. The EPs have said when they come back in January that they are going in a new exciting direction, now that the Kirk story arc is over. Maybe we will be getting back to the Map of Doom and what is coming up with the 2017 thing? They really haven't talked much about that stuff for a long time.

Honey West, I agree.  Lots previously discussed that we can now start to put together or maybe eliminate some things or confirm some things.  I was thinking, on the surface of it, Kirk didn't say much or reveal any new information, really.  But what he said, when we apply it back, can actually help chisel down the form of the sculpture into something more refined that just a hunk of rock.  Yes we still don't know a lot but I think (and hope) we can start to look at things through a slightly more focused prism now.   (and maybe spawn a whole new bunch of theories!  LOL!)
 

Deadskie!3 #22 - LOL!   although I'm not sure Liz or anyone else is going to find out soon - if its true. haha
But I think your observations are spot on!  Reading them made me smile!....

deadskie13 wrote:

I think I might be one of the few who are taking the whole father confession deal at face value--as in, for all intents and purposes, Red is Lizzy's biological father.  Given as such, just for kicks, I was thinking about all sorts of hypothetical situations that may or may not occur when and/or if the other characters ever find out.  

So far, I think Cooper will raise his eyebrows really high, and Donald and Samar will exchange how about that? glances.  I think Tom's sarcastic sneer of why he couldn't marry Liz "because I didn't ask daddy's permission?" is going to quickly change into a blood-draining realization of, "Oh my God, I didn't ask daddy's permission!"  

But I think Aram's reaction would be the best of them all--because I kind of sort of picture him grinning wildly, while playfully punching Liz on the arm and proclaiming, "Your dad is so cool!"  In which case, Lizzy just kind of smiles uncomfortably, and nods.  ^-^

 
LOL! I love it!

Tuxie400 wrote:

deadskie #22 - I think most fans are believing Red is Liz's father after the episode. There's a poll on The Blacklist Exposed Facebook site, and more than 60 percent of fans there agree with you. I think you've nailed Aram's reaction!

That's interesting.  I think a lot of fans were rooting for Red being the father.  And from what I read, a lot of vocal fans wanted the question answered.  I think there is a lot to support that theory, but equally there is stuff just doesn't add up or puzzles me if that is true.  there was even a little part of me that thought, up until when Liz "died" and the episodes that followed, whether Red was just a master manipulator - keeping Liz in play so to speak, to further his overall agenda, whatever that is.  I don't think that anymore but I do think there are a couple of serious question marks over the "father" - if he is the father, why is the question as complicated as the answer, as just one small example?

Its interesting to me that while Red did say that Liz is his daughter, there was enough ambiguity around the answer and the circumstances to leave the door open a bit for something else.  Given that I don't think that Red will ever tell Liz anyway, I wonder if there is another answer that won't be revealed until the absolute final episode, with a huge shock value.

They have said that another huge chunk of the puzzle around this will fall into place before the end of Season 4. what puzzle if we have the answer? Maybe reconciling the "red doesn't lie" canon with what he said.  or maybe what he said to Kirk.  I'll be watching Red's interactions with Liz, and his words to her, even more carefully going forward.  LOL!   

Well, Kate did tell Mountain Man that Red "loves them both dearly."

Okay, Red admitted that Liz is his daughter. But Red never played much of a part, if any, in raising her, in being a father to her. Constantin and Sam had that role. He never mentioned that he had, he jumped from one to the other, never mentioning himself in that role. Of course, even if he had raised her for even a short time, he had her memories erased, he even told her that. He basically had himself erased from her life. I am guessing it was to protect her from him, from being associated with him, as that would endanger her life. That has been said so many times. By Dom, by Kate, by Red himself when he was discussing things with himself at Cape May. He may very well see that as a death of sorts. I always said that erasing Liz's memories was somewhat akin to killing her, it was killing her memories of her earlier life and the little person that she was. So maybe Red saw that as killing her father, her memories of him, whatever they were.

That is most interesting, Tuxie400. I wasn't aware of that writer's timeline card. Do you remember which DVD that is on? I'd like to go back and look at it and see what else might go with it. I think you may be onto something, because if Red "disappeared" at the end of 1990, that may have coincided with when Liz's memories were erased. And that could have happened in early 1991. I'm sure Red didn't do that by himself, I always figured had had someone do it. But it would have to be someone he really, really trusted. Maybe the partner was the doctor or whoever that did the erasing. Hmmm. Good catch.

I know, lara1, and the Lady Ambrosia scene only works if you figure that Red is talking about both himself and Constantin at the same time, switching and blending their roles in order to keep telling Liz the truth. I still think that Liz shot Red the night of the fire. I also lean towards Katarina thinking or being led to believe that he was dead. Ha! Maybe he was rescued by his own version of the Mountain Man? Disappeared for awhile. Katarina committed suicide before he could resurface? (assuming that she did commit suicide, of course, I'm still not 100% sure about that) Where does that leave Constantin? Depends on whether he was involved in the Fulcrum business and was even there.
Regardless, even if Liz's paternity has been revealed for sure and we know the who, there is so much more story to tell about the what, where, when, and why.

Honey West #33 - what you say makes sense and I have thought the same from time to time.  Liz shot Red.  Katarina thought he had died, etc.  Guess it depends on what day of the week it is, LOL!  

Then there is my other theory that Red is not real Red but an imposter.    He was still shot that night, but it was Liz's father who actually died in the fire.  I still say to this day (LOL!) that when Liz remembered after shooting Connolly, that Red appeared fearful that she had remembered something ----- else.   So then anything is possible.  ha

Re the DVDs, its interesting because wouldn't that 1991 date tie in somewhat with what Constantin said initially, that he'd been waiting for the moment to meet Masha for 25 years?  And we all said, that can't be right, it should be 27, maybe he was just being figurative and not literal with the years.....hmm

I have the DVDs, Tuxie400 is correct, it was either on the S1 or S2 extras - I'm not actually at home till tomorrow so can't look it up.  As I recall there was something else on that wall in the photo that was just wrong, but then again, why would they include a close up of those details?  then again, who knows?  LOL 

deadskie13 - I understand what you mean. I was just commenting about fans in general terms. I do agree that most fans on other sites do seem to accept things at face value. I wish more people in this group had weighed in with their thoughts. There didn't seem to be as many people posting on the last episode as the previous ones.
 

There still very well could be something else--but the explanation they've given for Red being her father works for me.  It could just be because I'm very used to the concept of having a father who isn't a father.  But that's just how I see things, on account that despite how much we try and remain objective, real life and personal experience will always find a way to occasionally creep in.  ^-^  

At any rate, due to the noted above, I immediately jump to that conclusion when I hear Red saying Sam was the one who raised her--that that is the person who will always hold the title of father for Elizabeth, because that is the person who put in the time and made the effort, and was there for her when she needed him.  Likewise, it makes sense to me that Red would dismiss himself from the role of father altogether, having passed it on to someone else.  For all intents and purposes Red gave Lizzy up for adoption to keep her safe, and was forced to move on for both of them.  That, and there's that conveniently pesky death in Marrakesh.  :D

(Is your father dead, Elizabeth?  Well, yes.  He did die.  In Marrakesh.  Once.  He just came back, is all.  But that was a few years after you shot him, in a fire, and he almost died then, too.  But then he was able to place you with Sam, and save you, but not your mother--because she was convinced he was dead, and decided to end her life, too.  But none of it would have happened, if he hadn't been so arrogant to kidnap you in the first place, thinking you would be safer with him.  And that didn't work out.  At all.  And he saw that. He also lost some other daughter--if not entire family--along the way, too.  So he left you with Sam, and went far, far away.  But he kept watching you, always, from the shadows.  And then when it was less safe for him to be away than not, he decided to re-enter you life.  But see, if you knew all of this, you would constantly put yourself at risk, because "you're compassionate, Lizzy, and you'd do everything in your power to save him."  But he doesn't deserve to be saved.  So please don't.  It's best that you don't know.  It's all quite complicated, but it's easier to keep you safe when you hate him and distrust him at least a little--even if he swears he'll never lie to you.  And he won't.  Because what are the chances you'll ask him directly, if he's your biological father that stepped out of your life after a figurative death, in which he had to reconstruct himself into The Concierge of Crime, and pull himself up from the ashes, to do all sorts of horrible things that needed to be done, all in the name of--ultimately--keeping you safe?)

Also, when I think about it terms of structural story of sorts, it makes the most sense for Red to be Liz's father, just because the bread crumbs, while somewhat scattered, have at least consistently pointed in such a direction the vast majority of time.  To dismiss the "confirmed" father/daughter connection now, would break the audience's trust, in much the same way, that I feel having Red not be Red, or Red to be Katarina, would come so far out of left field, that it would shatter this kind of bubble they've worked so hard to create.  (But I do think if any creative team could pull it off, it would be The Blacklist writers.)  :D

I know for me, personally, I was rooting for some sort of series of circumstances that somehow linked Red and Liz--but without him necessarily being her father.  I think it would have been a very cool story, to have these two strangers somehow forming a kind of father/daughter relationship, just because they happened to share some sort of secondary connection.  But, truth be told, I would be okay with just about anything, provided the dreaded romantic relationship card wasn't played--which thankfully it hasn't been.  I will say I was definitely rooting for Red to be Liz's father, if the only other option was Kirk.   

At any rate, please note that those are just my thoughts on the matter, and that's all I ever anticipate them being--just my thoughts.  Anything is possible, and nothing is set in stone--and I'm along for the ride, no matter what direction we may be headed.  But I am inclined to agree with Honey West--that even if this is the answer, there are still so many exciting questions to explore and discuss.  What a great show, truly.  :D