The Blacklist Refugees » Redorina?!?!?

Tatiana · 2/26/2018 11:18 am

I'm sure it's been brought up before, but Spader as a young man was not only very sexy/handsome, but he had/has more feminine facial attributes as opposed to a masculine ruggedness.

lara1 · 2/26/2018 11:29 am

Eastcoast wrote:
Tuxie, if they take that route they need to know all the one and outs. I haven't heard one friend I have in the medical profession say turning Lotte into James was possible without a big chuckle. And I'm not being sarcastic.

The Sternum in a man is longer in proportion of his body size compared to that of a woman.

I'll just jump in feet first here...why not? lol

Firstly, I am not a proponent of Rederina. Still I think its possible, if a stretch. Eastcoast - I see what you are saying with the sternum, I notice that now in pictures I see - its the entire rib cage too, right? the rib cage is longer.

As for realism, I totally hear what you are saying. Unfortunately though, TV can take liberties with "realism". I knew someone who was in the police and someone else who was a lawyer who both refused to watch a number of police or law firm themed shows because their views were the shows distorted, to lesser and greater degrees, what actually went on. Yet I new other people in those professions who could watch those shows. I guess its a matter of degree to an individual. I would imagine its the same for medical shows or scenes. I think changes are made for dramatic license. but I do agree if Rederina is the end game, they may need to park certain things to the side, I don't know. I'm no expert. Just thinking out loud.

Last edited by lara1 (2/26/2018 11:30 am)

lara1 · 2/26/2018 11:33 am

Tuxie400 wrote:
Eastcoast - I agree that the relationship with Naomi does not seem to fit. But we are missing major pieces of the puzzle.

Well if Red is fake Red and really became Red, Naomi may not know. She comments he changed a lot. Of course, I think Red is not Red whatever, and she did comment that he looked different. She may know he's not real Red, but goes along with it. I could be wrong, I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking. But that's how I perceive it, anyway.

lara1 · 2/26/2018 11:35 am

Brittany wrote:
Another thing that stands out to me is why if KR was living as Red that she would need to present herself as Red to Kaplan. Kaplan was leery of him when they met, unsure of trusting him. Angry. If it really was KR, wouldn’t the sure fire way to get Kaplan onboard would be to admit the truth right away? Why have Sam tell Kaplan it was Red when he would also know the truth. She knew she could trust her, as she trusted her with knowing she was KGB and about the affair with Red.

I totally hear you on this, and others who have made similar comments on other junctures and characters in the show. But if they had Kaplan recognize him right away, game over, show over. There may be a hint in the dialog, but again its vague, something about how he may not be as unknown to her as she thinks. But that could mean anything, LOL

Tuxie400 · 2/26/2018 11:35 am

I think the writers started dropping clues in Season 4 because it was questionable whether BL would get another season. If they had to, they had sprinkled enough clues to do the Redarina reveal:

1. Red refusing to tell Kirk he was Masha's father but willing to day Elizabeth is my daughter.

2. In Mato, Kate told Raymond: " I just betrayed Nikos to keep Elizabeth safe, just like you asked me to do all those years ago, when you first put her in my arms as a baby girl, only now she has a baby girl of her own, and your existence in their lives puts them in constant danger."

3. In Requiem, we learned it was Katarina and not Raymond who put the child in Kaplan's arms, and Kaplan did not formally meet Red until at least 1994 when he offered her a job. The show has given no evidence Raymond was behind getting Kaplan interviewed as a nanny or knew her before then.

4. Then there is the matter of two characters saying Kaplan had worked for Red for 30 years - which would mean she started working for him in the late 80s. - not 1994 or after.
Liz tells the task force: "Kaplan spent 30 years tending to his messes while Reddington buiilt his criminal empire."
Kate tells Gale: "I've been his cleaner, keeper, and confessor for 30 years, and I'm prepared to telll you everything you need to know in open court."

5. Requiem also shows us it was Katarina and not Raymond who had the close connection with Sam and made arrangements for Liz to go to him.

6. Requiem shows Katarina after the fire with with 3 holes on the back of her shirt (one small round hole on the top of the shoulder and two jagged edged large holes) after the fire. So she was likely burned on her back. While it doesn't seem the holes would account for all the burn scars we see on Raymond's back at the end of Season 1, it leaves the door open (but doesn't totally close it in case they get another season). The glimpses of those holes are very fast. I didn't even notice them when I watched Requiem live. And on my rewatch I only noticed one. It wasn't till I looked frame by frame that I saw all three. (Yes, I do know it's a stretch. But the worst scar on Spaders back is right where one of those holes is.) Here's a photo:
https://imgur.com/gX9vakN

7. Red buried his last resort island key in Dom's shed. He tells Dom, "I'm sorry. I wish I'd been the person you wanted me to be. We all thought that sounded like something one would tell a parent.

8. Red won't confirm he's her father, when Liz shows him the DNA test. And he still hasn't. He will only say things like "Because you're my daughter ..."

8. The 4th season kept bringing up dancing over and over again. In fact, I posted here about it, and kept wondering why when the instances of dancing didn't seem particularly necessary to plotlines. (The word dance is found in Season 4 scripts 25 times.) The one time it did seem relevant to the story was Kirk's break in torturning to Red and remembering Katarina. Red was able to finish Kirk's story with the word "dancing." Did Red just know Katarina so well, or was he remembering what she did? And I think it's interesting that Red was dancing in the Season 1 opener.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (2/26/2018 12:20 pm)

lara1 · 2/26/2018 11:37 am

Tatiana wrote:
I did read that they chose to do the eyes because the special effects to make Spader younger is too involved, time consuming, and expensive.
This has been consistent with other special-effects that were not included for the very same reasons. So it neither supports nor disproves the Rederina theory.

I totally hear you on the eyes. But as you know, I've been fixated on eyes and how they film them, show them etc for a while now. They could have cast Spader's face more in overall shadow, lighter overall shadow, partly obscured one eye in shadow etc., but they chose to not do there, thereby highlighting them. And shooting a close up of them. In parallel to how Red's face has been highlighted in other scenes in the series.

Still, it may mean nothing. Just an artistic device - obscuring enough so we know he is younger, but not so much that we can't recognize him. As usual, could point to many things, and nothing!

Last edited by lara1 (2/26/2018 11:38 am)

2/26/2018 11:42 am

Yes, Tatiana. They say that on the audio commentary on the Blu-ray. It was just cost saving. They didn’t actually like it because they thought it looked like they were trying to hide something when they weren’t.

As for story telling, yes I get that. But it still doesn’t make sense to me. Sam could have just said “someone wants to see you” and they could have cut to her saying “you want me to join you I’m a life of crime to protect Masha?” Or whatever she said.

Tatiana · 2/26/2018 11:49 am

Folks, I hate getting this detailed, but if Red were ftm, female to male, trans, it is hard to hide it from his lovers and probably anyone who has seen him shower, which would be a lot of people considering his lifestyle. Male to female is much more difficult to 'detect' and some partners have said they did not know. With FTM there would likely be scars from breast reduction and the penis would look and perform differently depending on the surgery. One surgery which uses all the existing tissue, would only create what's called a micro-penis. The other surgery would use an implant which can be activated fairly discreetly (squeezing a pump in the scrotum), but the phallus remains the same size regardless of state of arousal. This surgery uses skin transfer from the forearm, so there would be significant scars on the forearm. Therefore it is unlikely that Red's lovers would not notice. Or, if they did notice, they didn't care. However, considering Red's position as FBI's most wanted, I would think this would be a huge risk for black mail from previous lovers. Just a thought.

On the other hand, I do think much of the storyline points to Red having transitioned from Katarina. It would also explain the 3 year dead time from the time of the fire to when he emerged on the scene again (1993?) but this time as a criminal.

Then it would point to the bones in the suitcase being the real Raymond Reddington, Karla as Red's stooge wife and Jennifer as solely Karla's daughter. What happened to the real Karla and the real daughter is anyone's guess. Kaplan would not have cared about Karla or the daughter but she would care about Katarina. Would she care so much about the real Raymond Reddington?? She apologizes to Katarina when she starts to dig up the suitcase. So the bones in the suitcase are important to Katarina.

Just seems like we keep chasing our tail!

Last edited by Tatiana (2/26/2018 11:50 am)

Tatiana · 2/26/2018 12:05 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
I think the writers started dropping clues in Season 4 because it was questionable whether BL would get another season. If they had to, they had sprinkled enough clues to do the Redarina reveal:

This is an excellent list, Tuxie, and it truly substantiates the theory. I also agree that TBL did not know for sure if they had another season. This is the only season which talks so much about the end and culminated in so many reveals, especially Kaplan's digging up of all the dead bodies, literally.

I have watched Kaplan, Conc. several times now, and I am certain that the final episode(s) were leading up to a possible end. Watch it and watch what Kaplan says about 'the end'; Red digs up the 'island box' in Dom's barn; the bones are dug up; all the dead bodies; the fingerprints at Diane Fowler's house. Gale. It all pointed to the 'end' or at least being prepared for the end. Then we go to Season 5 and it's all light and funny and Red and there's no more mention of Gale, or the bodies, they get rid of ... what's his name? the cleaner who covers up Hitchen's death? All of it is swept to the side.

But I also think there's something weird about the barn, the sole bed in the attic, the 'Tansi" name (means daughter), and the suitcase buried under the large tree. I just keep thinking that those bones belong to a daughter.

Tuxie400 · 2/26/2018 12:16 pm

Tatiana - That is a lot of specifics. I just wonder if Red doesn't have so many scars that his lady loves wouldn't have thought about a forearm scar. And I'm not convinced he ever really had any lady loves. He flirts and kisses people, but we never see him in bed with anyone, or even headed toward sex. With Josephine, we didn't even get a kiss. Have you looked at that video link I posted? the she/he doesn't have any breast scarring at all. It doesn't show genitalia, just how regular body parts have changed in two years on hormones.

And here's a sick thought. Red kills a lot of people. What's to say Doctors Without Morals didn't use tissue from one of those poor, unfortuanate souls for his added body parts. I wonder if he even has those body parts. If it's all for a disguise, it could just be the hormones.

Tuxie400 · 2/26/2018 12:24 pm

Whatever the end turns out to be, I sure have enjoyed watching Red and Liz be supposed father and daughter this season. I think I've watched the Smokey Putnnam episode at least 8 times, and the Greyson Blaise episode four times. So if Redarina turns out to be the endgame, at least the fans who wanted a father/daughter story got the fun stuff this season.

Tatiana · 2/26/2018 12:27 pm

The breast tissue/scar thing is not so much relevant as the phallus is. Like I said, a trans female to male would either have a micro penis or an implant which could create an erection but the penis would remain the same size whether erect or not. In both cases, this would be noticeable. He would need to take hormone replacement shots about once every two weeks (I'm not 100% on this).

You are correct that in most cases, we never see Red actually engaging in any love making, however, the only time we ever see any sex scenes is the time Agnes was conceived and I think one other time just recently.

I do think, however, that there is a scene when Red is staying at the house with all the books, the weird milky alcohol, and his comment "What's with the rabbits?" where his girlfriend comes through the room in only one of his shirts, nothing underneath. Liz enters the room and rolls her eyes.

Tatiana · 2/26/2018 12:31 pm

Of course, all of this is pure science. We know full well, that this is not a scientific show. And we also know there's a lot of 'futuristic' science and science experiments, portrayed in the show.

There's much in this show that is completely unrealistic, like how they somehow manage to get to Europe one hour after Harold tells them to do so!

Tuxie400 · 2/26/2018 12:38 pm

Tatiana - I never believed Luli was Red's girlfirend. Remember what Red told Ressler: "She hates men, and especially cops." I think Luli in that shirt was a red herring. She was playing a part.

Eastcoast · 2/26/2018 12:44 pm

I understand what you guys are pointing at to say it all fits. And it could if I could find more in the first few seasons let alone the medical issues I have. I see too many things that do not make it fit. I know this is TV land, lol.... but it still needs to make sense to Me to make it All work.

What Tatiana says above was also in my head I just didn't get a chance to write it all out. lol

As far as the sex scenes, I take 'Red' as a very private individual and it would seam weird to see that from him. I think what we have seen of him with Madeline and Luli etc... is a good reflection of him as a private person.

I also cannot figure out how Tom would read a DNA report and suddenly know KR is Red?

I re-watched the last episode last night trying to see what everyone else sees to point to KR and I didn't see anything? I backed up the parts with Dom and the penis jokes and I still don't see how that could make him KR? A lot of guys make those kinds of jokes.

I may very well be wrong in the end but it is because I cannot make sense of the relationships he has with others and the way he speaks with them to be KR.

I do Not see anything in the way Dom speaks to Red to say he is she. If they were one in the same I do not think he would speak of KR in such an endearing way even if he missed her being her.
He told Red he blamed him for killing his family and called him a prick.
I went back to the barn scene and why would he tell Red he had no right to go through her things if they were his/hers anyway? Why would Red have to imagine young Katarina?

I am starting to think all this is to blast us with something else we never even thought of at all! lol

And before I forget it, I know this probably isn't the right board but what did I miss that made everyone believe that the fingerprint on Diane's record cleaner Had to be Red's and could not be anyone else's?

Well, off to RL for a while...

Tuxie400 · 2/26/2018 12:48 pm

Eastcoast - I do understand how you feel about the medical stuff. We all bring our experience to interpreting this mysterious tale. You bring your background as a nurse, and I bring my background as a writer. So we see it through different prisms.

Tuxie400 · 2/26/2018 12:52 pm

Tatiana - Tansi may point to a daughter being the bones, or it may point to BL being a daughter story about Liz. Today, at 11:50 a.m., my bet is on the bones being the real Raymond Reddington's. That could well change anytime after subsequent episodes. I haven't been tied to any one theory about the bones this season, but more and more as the season progressed the feeling in my bones was that the mystery bones were RR.

Tatiana · 2/26/2018 12:59 pm

The bones being the real Raymond Reddington would not conflict with the Redarina theory.

Speaking of which, when Harold Cooper goes to get the DNA sample from the bloodied shirt, what is in that photo? We see the bloodied shirt, we see something that looks like chains, but then something underneath it looks like a handle, like a garment bag. Ok, I know. I have no idea what it is but has anybody looked at it closer?

Tatiana · 2/26/2018 2:06 pm

Tuxie - I've been watching Kaplan, Conclusion several times and the statement Dembe makes to Red, "I'm not sure Elizabeth will ever be ready to learn about (?) what you did to Katarina."
I'm not sure of the exact words, but I wondered what you think of it?
Remember Dembe had said many times that 'you should tell her'. Red had said, it's complicated. And Dembe said, its not complicated, Raymond.
So it seems like this recent statement conflicts with his previous statements. Unless there's multiple secrets. Like, yes, I am your parent, but I also tortured and killed your father, put him in a suitcase, and transitioned to be a male and took on his persona?

Tuxie400 · 2/26/2018 2:56 pm

Tatiana - I thought Dembe was talking about Red obliterating Katarina as a woman by taking on the male persona. In a way, Rederina would be Katarina committing gender suicide. That's what crossed my mind the first time I heard it.