The Blacklist Refugees » Season 5 Fall/Winter Hiatus Discussions

2/21/2018 11:38 am

Agreed, Tuxie. I’ve never felt like Liz would truly see what Red has done for her while he is alive. I’ve also wondered if he might ever have to die for Agnes. In Cape May his KR hallucination asked him what he would do if that little girl (he had been referring to Agnes) was in danger as long as he lived. A little foreshadowing perhaps?

lara1 · 2/21/2018 11:46 am

So, changing direction a little bit - I was thinking last night, for no particular reason, of masks. And the focus on eyes in the series that has me inexplicably fixated.

I recently watched a film from the forties called Strange Impersonation. Basically an explosion and resulting fire in a lab causes the face of a woman scientist to be scarred and disfigured. She undergoes something like 18 months of plastic surgery (well it was the forties), and comes away with a new "face". And the scenes of her having a fully bandaged face, with only her eyes showing.

and I thought well with a mask, and in that kind of situation, the only remaining "real" part of the person's face is the eyes. And I thought some more about how on and off during the series, Red's eyes are cast in light while the rest of his face is in comparable shadow. Sometimes the effect is very subtle (like you would not see it if you were not looking for it, LOL), sometimes more obvious.

Which is a check in the column for Red as imposter. He is wearing a Red mask in a way. But who is beneath the mask?? Maybe

Last edited by lara1 (2/21/2018 11:47 am)

Tuxie400 · 2/21/2018 11:46 am

Brittany - I do think Red will be willing to die for Agnes too. I just hope this Liz/Katarina parallel doesn't go that far.

Tuxie400 · 2/21/2018 12:01 pm

lara1 wrote:
So, changing direction a little bit - I was thinking last night, for no particular reason, of masks. And the focus on eyes in the series that has me inexplicably fixated.

I recently watched a film from the forties called Strange Impersonation. Basically an explosion and resulting fire in a lab causes the face of a woman scientist to be scarred and disfigured. She undergoes something like 18 months of plastic surgery (well it was the forties), and comes away with a new "face". And the scenes of her having a fully bandaged face, with only her eyes showing.

and I thought well with a mask, and in that kind of situation, the only remaining "real" part of the person's face is the eyes. And I thought some more about how on and off during the series, Red's eyes are cast in light while the rest of his face is in comparable shadow. Sometimes the effect is very subtle (like you would not see it if you were not looking for it, LOL), sometimes more obvious.

Which is a check in the column for Red as imposter. He is wearing a Red mask in a way. But who is beneath the mask?? Maybe

Sounds like an interesting movie. The one I like about face reconstruction and fixating on the eyes is a 2014 film called Phoenix that I watched on Netflix. It's set after World War II and involves a female Auschwitz survivor who was disfigured by a gunshot. She has reconstructive plastic surgery, but the surgeon is unable to make her look exactly like she used to. She returns to her husband who does not recognize her, but finds her eyes very familiar. She does not reveal herself to him because of suspicions she has about him. I won't give the whole thing away - in case you decide to watch it.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (2/21/2018 12:01 pm)

Tuxie400 · 2/21/2018 12:16 pm

Tatiana wrote:
Red Sparrow - wow! That is crazy!!!

Tuxie you'll have to tell us more about it. It sounds like tit for tat the same as TBL. Interesting that the novel came out in 2013. I know the idea behind TBL was presented well before then, but there must be some kind of correlation? or Bokenkamp knew something of the storyline? Even the title, for pete's sakes! There's that color again and reference to a bird.

Tatiana - All female spies who seduce people for information are called sparrows in spy lingo. Males who do the same are called ravens. British slang used for surveilling a spy is called Birdwatching. I think that's where the BL bird references come from.

As you know, wherever I look I seem to find BL connections. LOL

Last edited by Tuxie400 (2/21/2018 12:17 pm)

Tuxie400 · 2/21/2018 1:41 pm

Tatiana - I don't want to tell too much about Red Sparrow since it might spoil the movie for those who are interesting in seeing it. But I read where the movie dropped one aspect of Dominika's (the Red Sparrow's) character that I found fascinating in the book. She has Synesthesia - a perceptual phenomenon in which stimulation of one of the senses leads to automatic experiences with another sense. The phenomenon - its name derives from the Greek, meaning "to perceive together" - comes in many varieties. Some taste shapes, and still others perceive written digits, letters and words in color. Dominika displays several variations of Synesthesia that help her excel both as a ballerina and as a spy. She hears music in colors, which helps her translate the emotions of music into dance. She also sees emotions in color, and this helps her decide whether other people in the story are friends or foes (tremendous aid in profiliing!). Her ability to see words and number in colors helps her remember sensitive intelligence information.

There is a connection with Synesthesia in TBL, although the show has not mined it very much. Back in Season 4's Gaia episode, Red meets with Gaia's wife, Maya, and his son, Skyler, over some ice cream sundae. Red says:

"Picasso said it took four years to paint like Raphael, but a lifetime to paint like a child. They live in a delightful space somewhere between dreams and reality. They taste color, hear shapes, see sounds."

That last sentence in Red's little speech is exactly what Synesthesia is. I thought at the time it was one of the Vladimir Nabakov connections, along with Lolita in Season 1, and the boxing ring and the Lepidopterology Research Institute in Season 4's Apothecary episode.

Now that I'm reading about how a spy with Synesthesia used it to profile, I wonder if it isn't part of Liz's superpower of profling. And of all the things they could have shown Agnes doing in preschool, they have her with a rainbow colored parachute. Maybe Katarina had a Synethesia gene that will carry through to Agnes and affect the story in some awesome way. Synestheia does run in families. Navakov's wife and son both had it.

Tatiana · 2/21/2018 2:29 pm

Tuxie, well that's interesting. I have a child who is on the autism spectrum and in my studies of this condition I've come across synesthesia. Some savants, who are usually on the spectrum, experience this and that's what helps them to be savant: people who see numbers for example, don't actually compute, they see a shapes for each number and so they visualize computations. It's really fascinating.

I don't see evidence of this in TBL, however. Honestly I think TBL covers every fascinating rare condition possible! There was something in the Red Sparrow preview that caught my eye for a quick second. It was toward the end of the clip, she's the ballerina in red, and for a second it looked like she had a flash in her eye, like she had a fake eye or one of those virtual contacts. Just wondered if you saw it too.

It does look like an interesting story.

Tuxie400 · 2/21/2018 2:38 pm

Tatiana - I didn't notice that flash in the Red Sparrow's eye. In the book, she suffers an "accident" caused by a rival that destroys her ballet career. Maybe in the movie, they have the accident affect her eye. You never know. Or it could just be her eye caught a flash of light in that promo. There's no spying stuff in the book until after she's hurt while dancing. I'm really liking the first book in The Red Sparrow trilogy.

lara1 · 2/21/2018 7:59 pm

Tuxie400 #224 - thanks for the info on the other film. Strange Impersonation is a film noir crime thriller, but sort of a B movie cult classic. It kind of has a twisty almost camp feeling about it. Another is a twist in the plot. You can catch it on youtube, if interested.

And yes how strange how all roads lead back to TBL. LOL

Last edited by lara1 (2/21/2018 7:59 pm)

Tuxie400 · 2/22/2018 11:04 am

Tatiana - That's interesting that you've found a connection between autism and synesthesia. I may have a touch of it in the sound department. I always see colors when I listen to instrumental music, but not songs with words.

Tuxie400 · 2/22/2018 11:11 am

Brittany - this question is for you as our resident therapist (athough all of you are welcome to weigh in on this topic). How messed up do you think little Agnes is, and does she need immediate therapy? Because of Liz's fake death and the Kirk kidnapping, Agnes wasn't with Liz enough to bond with her in early infancy. The parent she most likely bonded with, Tom, died. Then she spent at least 10 months with adoring grandpa Red, only to go back with Angry mama Liz for a short time. Then she's placed with Scottie Hargrave, a woman she's never met.

lara1 · 2/22/2018 1:01 pm

So I was looking through some fashion photographs from the seventies and got to thinking about the seventies references and possible references we've seen or heard from Red in the series. And I realized what I'd thought in the back of my mind for a while - how the shaded aviator glasses he wears have a distinct 70x vibe. Just saying.

Tuxie400 · 2/22/2018 1:09 pm

lara1 - The aviator glasses haven't changed much since the late 70s. They looked pretty much the same in the 80s. Wasn't James Spader wearing them as Steff in Pretty in Pink (1986)?

Tatiana · 2/22/2018 1:16 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
lara1 - The aviator glasses haven't changed much since the late 70s. They looked pretty much the same in the 80s. Wasn't James Spader wearing them as Steff in Pretty in Pink (1986)?

Yep!

2/22/2018 2:49 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
Brittany - this question is for you as our resident therapist (athough all of you are welcome to weigh in on this topic). How messed up do you think little Agnes is, and does she need immediate therapy? Because of Liz's fake death and the Kirk kidnapping, Agnes wasn't with Liz enough to bond with her in early infancy. The parent she most likely bonded with, Tom, died. Then she spent at least 10 months with adoring grandpa Red, only to go back with Angry mama Liz for a short time. Then she's placed with Scottie Hargrave, a woman she's never met.

It's hard to tell at this point without knowing her behavior, but while she has had multiple caregivers during her time, she has always been with people who not only meet her physical needs, but love her and meet her emotional needs as well. That makes a big difference. In the long run, only time will tell how Agnes ends up turning out. It will depend on her personality, the ways she learns to cope, how long she is separated from Liz, if she is ever exposed to any trauma,etc. She could end up having some abandonment issues, but it isn't a guarantee. Liz's issues not only stem from losing her caregivers, but trauma exposure and not knowing what happened to her parents and having her memories manipulated. I personally don't do direct therapy with anyone under 4 because you need a certain level of self awareness for therapy to be effective, but there are ways to help the caregivers deal with any behavioral issues in younger kids.

Tuxie400 · 2/22/2018 3:56 pm

Brittany - Thanks for sharing your take on Agnes with us. We really haven't seen too much of her behavior yet. You're right that most of the time she's been with people who love and care about her. I guess even Kirk made sure she had her physical and emotional needs met during her kidnapping - except for that time he almost threw her off a building. It's a good thing she was too young to be traumatized by that. I remember being somewhat traumatized watching it.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (2/22/2018 3:57 pm)

2/22/2018 6:38 pm

I don’t think her time with Kirk would have impacted her given how little she was. But yes, minus the ledge thing, he cared for her.

I wonder if we might see Red fake his death this season. Say Liz learns his secret or gets very close and he faked his death either to hide from others who would want the secret, from some sort of repercussion he might face from Liz, or to keep Liz from discovering it? He is desperate to keep his secret from her. 🤔

And I’m still wondering about the Oleander thing. Dennison didn’t tell Tom about Oleander when he called to tell Tom that the suitcase was linked to Red and Kaplan wanted it to go to Liz. It didn’t appear as though Tom was supposed to be in contact again. So how does Oleander become important later if it wasn’t before? A back up plan? I’m still a little confused about how that played out .

Tuxie400 · 2/22/2018 8:36 pm

Brittany - I really hope we don't have another fake death on this show. But I could see Red just disappearing for awhile. But I don't know how the Task Force would continue without him feeding them cases.

2/22/2018 8:40 pm

Oh I agree. I don’t want to see another one either. But they seem to love them so much I wouldn’t put it past them. I would rather see him just disappear or whatever.

As for cases, sometimes I wonder if the Task force will always continue as it has. I’d rather see them operate in the shadows than in an official capacity.

Last edited by Brittany (2/22/2018 8:41 pm)

Eastcoast · 2/22/2018 10:05 pm

Me either, but If there is another fake death on here they would really have to make it over the top!