The Blacklist Refugees » The Blacklist Episode 4.08 "Dr. Adrian Shaw

Tuxie400 · 11/13/2016 8:20 pm

lara1 - I'm certainly not 100 percent about the mommy theory, but I am leaning 60 percent now. About Artax, if Red is Katarina, I don't think Dom had any idea. He thinks she's dead. She is unrecognizable to him as Red. I remember some of us questioned how Red knew the trunk held Katarina's things in Dom's garage? He went straight for it, remember? If Red is Katarina, that person could still be imagining Katarina as a child. There are a couple of things that seem to negate the mommy theory though. There's an episode in either 1 or 2 when a contact doesn't want to help him because he slept with his wife. But maybe Red was just willing to cover for the wife's infidelity with someone else. Red is very flirtatious and we thought he was in a sexual relationship with Madeleine Pratt, but was he really? I never thought he had a sexual relationship with Josephine. He never even kissed her.

Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather Red turned out to be the real Raymond Reddington. But I remember how Bokenkamp said he had an ending in mind, but he didn't know if Sony and NBC would let him do it. That made me think it was something extremely controversial.

As for Lotte Verbeek, the info that came out at the end of summer said she would appear in "at least two episodes."

Last edited by Tuxie400 (11/13/2016 8:47 pm)

deadskie13 · 11/13/2016 8:25 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
lara1 - I think Red did empathize with Constantin. The two make me think of The Caretaker's last name: Janus. Red and Constantin were two sides of the same coin. Both were brilliant strategists deceived by the same woman. Both loved Katarina and were broken by her suicide and the loss of a daughter.

So many of the episode lines about Constantin could have been said of Red, too:

Constantin to Liz: It doesn't make much sense, but sometimes you can feel too much, hold on too long ... it poisons you. I should have let go long ago, but you were my child. I'm gonna be dead soon, and my biggest regret is that ... you will remember me like this and not the young father who cradled you in his arms."

Constantin to Red: "I came home one night and they were gone ... my wife, my child."Odette to Liz: "I'm talking about who he's become because of his obsession with you. He was a good man when I met him. And then he saw you ... Finding you, that changed him. He did things that I didn't think he was capable of. Terrible things. Awful. And I blame you for that."

I think Red now wants Liz to remember him - not as a man doing violent, awful things - but as a friend who cradled Agnes in his arms and loved her more than life itself.

Jeez-o-peetz! Sorry Tuxie400! I should have just read your comment first, before posting just now. I said a lot of the top part, but you said it better--and then killed it with the last paragraph! ^-^

deadskie13 · 11/13/2016 8:31 pm

IowaWatcher wrote:
I also feel like we're missing an episode, one that would explain a little more about the Cabal and the previous generation. We keep being handed these enemies but it's not always clear to me how they fit the larger picture.

::coughs:: I think they need to do a prequel show, starring Mr. Kaplan. ::coughs::

But really, they should! I forgot to mention all around, how amazing Ms. Blommaert has been through everything. I think Mr. Kaplan is easily my favorite female character of all-time. ^-^

deadskie13 · 11/13/2016 9:01 pm

lara1 wrote:
One thing that doesn't add up for me:

Dom said to Red that he had basically messed up in a colossal way, making them all back out of Masha's life completely. It doesn't seem from what Kirk said, that the group of people who "backed out" because of that event included Kirk. It was more like Katarina, Dom and Red, then.

Kirk also said there was no fire when others seem to have known about it and Liz has a seared bunny and a scar. Where was Kirk, why did he not know what was happening with Masha etc and (if he was telling the truth) why did he know nothing about a fire, and why did he not understand that Masha was in danger? He seems to know nothing about those events, yet some of it must have happened given Dom's remarks.

Also Kirk says he came home one day to find his wife and daughter gone. Yet unless Katarina went with Red willingly, I'm not sure how they would have disappeared at the same time. If the fight in the fire memories is Red and Katarina (which it now sounds to me like it was), it doesn't seem that Red, Katarina and Masha left together.

Something is not adding up. Does anyone else think this? or did I miss something?

I could be completely wrong, but in my head I have it worked out like this: Red couldn't convince Katarina to call it quits with the KGB, for whatever reason--either that, or he just hasn't the foggiest that she's been gathering info in the form of the fulcrum to end it with the whole spy game. At some point in time, Red seemed to feel like she was getting dangerously close to something that would immediately threaten her and Lizzy--so that's when he steps in, snags Elizabeth, and heads back to the states. He figures if he can't save Katarina, at least he can save their kiddo. Katarina puts two and two together, frighteningly quick, and makes a break for it, to chase after him, and get Masha back.

The KGB, The Cabal--whoever it is that's been running things--follow quickly in pursuit. Perhaps they'd found out the whole Red and Kat deal, or maybe not--either way, they banked on secrets they didn't want out, being revealed. And if you have one of your best operatives falling corrupt to the love of a spy master, then there's only one thing to do: take them both out. And I think that's where the fire comes into play. I don't think Kirk was there, and I don't think he knew about it at all. The first go around, I thought he was lying--but after seeing how everything played out with Kirk, and how wrong he was about what Reddington had and hadn't told Liz, I think he was just guessing, trying to fill in the blanks the best way he knew how.

After such a fiasco on fire night, I think that's when Dom, Red, and Katarina agreed to step out of Elizabeth's life, to keep her safe. The colossal screw up, I believe, was that Red thought he was saving Lizzy and Katarina, by getting them to the U.S., when really that was the starting point to everything falling to pieces.

deadskie13 · 11/13/2016 9:04 pm

lara1 wrote:
Honey West #132 - I am now thinking that Kirk was not at fire night. He told Liz that Red took her and he never saw her again and she was basically lost to him. Katarina must have followed Red immediately if neither were around when Konstantin got home that day. I'm also thinking that fire night may have been in a place other than the Summer Palace. - wherever Red took Liz. It also seems that Kirk did not realize that Masha was in danger (for reasons we don't really know yet), as it seems only Dom, Red and Katarina "backed out of her life". And that Katarina may never have gone back to Konstantin, so he knew nothing. And two months later she disappeared into the ocean. Which makes me also think that the story Kirk told Red was a little too rosy regarding how they were all a happy family. And Red had said to Liz that her father was the only man that her mother had ever truly loved, so that could not have been Kirk. (Of course if Liz's actually DNA had been altered, all bets are off - but I'm not going there - at least not right now! LOL )

# 133 - yes its true Kirk never actually denied a fire, but I think (my opinion) he denied Liz her memory of it, and made it seem false as he spoke of Red having lied to her when he told her that her father had died.

Which leads me to another question - how did Kirk know that Red had told her that? I guess he assumed it when Liz said to him that her father was dead.

So maybe little by little we are scraping away at answers....sort of!

Thursday's episode is still not on On Demand yet here so I am experiencing withdrawal symptoms at not being able to re-watch it. LOL!

I'm going to have to start reading comments backwards--or try to keep up better. Sorry lara1! I think I pretty much just wrote out your first paragraph, in my last comment. ^-^

deadskie13 · 11/13/2016 9:23 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
The more I think about the last episode and other things that were said during this season, the more I'm leaning toward Red is Katerina. Of course Red didn't have an affair with himself. The real Reddington, who died in the fire, had an affair with Katerina. Raymond really was the only man Katerina ever loved, and maybe she didn't realize it until it was too late. She had to disappear to save herself and to save Masha/Liz. Katerina was the one seriously burned in the fire. She faked her death and went to Prague, where she had gender reassignment surgery. She also would have needed extensive plastic surgeries because of the burns. Maybe her face was disfigured in the fire too. I don't know exactly why she wanted to look like Reddington. Maybe she needed his contacts to exact her revenge. Maybe she loved him so much she wanted to see his face every day going forward. This theory works with the idea that Red NEVER lies to Liz, and Liz is Red's daughter.

I know this is the theory that most upsets the greatest number of Blacklist fans. Whether it's because they're in love with Red the man, or just think it's too far out there, I think that's where we're headed in the end. My husband doesn't even watch BL, and this theory upsets him. But think about it. Isn't this the role "the strangest man in television" would love to play? Hold on. It's going to be a bumpy ride. I'm going over all the episodes again, right from the "Everything about me is a lie."

In last week's episode, I think Red told Constantin something private only Constantin and Katarina would know.

This theory doesn't upset me at all--I just don't think it's....probable, I guess? I don't know. I feel like Gregory Devry shoots down the Red-not-being-Red theory, in the same way that The Djinn shoots down this one. But more so, I feel like it's a reach that isn't there. I'm pretty much open to anything, and I love looking at things from all kinds of perspectives and such--which is one of the many reasons this place is so great! :D But from my own viewings, I haven't seen anything that solidly points in this direction. Mind you, this doesn't mean it couldn't be true--because jeez-o-peetz, this is very much a show where anything is possible--again, I just don't think it's probable.

But good luck with your views, Tuxie400! I look forward to reading about what you find. ^-^

Tuxie400 · 11/13/2016 9:25 pm

deadskie - I'm glad you liked the last paragraph!

I did a little research on the case study houses Constantin referenced in his Katerina date story. According to Rostov Katarina wanted to see “a house near where she lived. Case study houses according to Wikipedia were “experiments in American residential architecture sponsored by Arts & Architecture magazine, which commissioned major architects of the day, including Richard Neutra, Raphael Soriano, Craig Ellwood, Charles and Ray Eames, Pierre Koenig, Eero Saarinen, A. Quincy Jones, and Ralph Rapson to design and build inexpensive and efficient model homes for the United States residential housing boom caused by the end of World War II and the return of millions of soldiers.” That confirms our idea that she was living in the U.S at least at some point. We thought it was even as a child because of the American game and other items in her trunk at Dom's.

deadskie13 · 11/13/2016 9:26 pm

lara1 wrote:
In the meantime I'm looking into whether Liz is really Masha. I think regardless, there were two girls in that fire house, and there was a former daughter of Red's from the family he lost.

Here's an interesting thing that I'll just throw out there - from what we have known of Katerina and seen in the flashbacks thus far, she has called Liz "Masha". The fire night fights were between someone calling for Elizabeth and someone calling Masha. Red is careful to always call her Elizabeth, even when alone with Kirk. Fascinating isn't it? LOL

I think it's very interesting that there could have been two girls in the house the night of the fire. Figure so far, all we know is that at some point in time, Red had a daughter who wasn't Elizabeth--but beyond that, we really don't know all that much about her.

Gah! So many things to think about. I really like how this whole father/daughter deal being answered doesn't take away from the show at all. If anything, it's left us with more wonderful questions to think about! :D

Eastcoast · 11/13/2016 9:59 pm

So many thoughts on the fire night.
I was also thinking we would get an answer to it but I guess we have to wait.

About Marrakesh,
When he was talking about dying before in the Courier, I remember he said couldnt believe what he saw
on the other side.
Kirk was saying 'dying isnt so bad' and then Red said that he 'did it once Marrakesh'.
I took it that he was thinking about what he saw. Another words, that's what you think Kirk.

Last edited by Eastcoast (11/13/2016 9:59 pm)

lara1 · 11/13/2016 11:47 pm

Tuxie400 #141 - its amazing how much discussion and how many theories that one line at the end of the episode has generated! lol

I'd be really interested in what you find when you re-watch the season 4 episodes. I might take another look at Cape May and Artax from this perspective. I think if anywhere, it will be in Cape May.

With maddie Pratt, didn't Red mention some belt thing or something that was their private "thing"....LOL. I'll stop now while its still G-rated commentary. This show does drive me crazy sometimes, but in a good way....!

Well, I guess if Red has a "real" love interest in the New Year, or "real" katarina shows up, that might help with an answer.

Oh and that's really interesting on the model houses. Thanks for sharing that - yes, that would mean that the romance with Kirk took place in America, at first. Good catch!

Last edited by lara1 (11/13/2016 11:50 pm)

Tuxie400 · 11/14/2016 11:17 am

deadskie13 - For me, the DeVry and Djinn episodes just bolster the mommy theory. I say that because themes repeat again and again in The Blacklist. I've always kind of liked the imposter theory AND the mommy theory. Put them together and you get the Male Imposter theory. I'm one of those people who changes her mind quite often. I'm willing to consider all the theories that have been floated, but my heart always says Red is a biological parent. Which type, I don't really know.

Tuxie400 · 11/14/2016 12:21 pm

Some people on other forums have asked how can Red be Katerina since he's bald. I did some research on this, and it turns out women who have gender reassignment have a greater chance to go bald because of the high amount of testosterone they take. Who knew?

Here's the science:
1.The baldness gene is carried on the X chromosome.
2.The baldness gene gets activated by testosterone.

#2 gets italics because that was the big “ah-hah!” moment for me. People born genetically female don’t lose all their hair even if they carry the baldness gene, because their bodies don’t produce enough testosterone to trigger it. But a transman who undergoes hormone treatments gets a giant spike in their bodies’ testosterone levels, which is easily enough to activate the gene.

Actually, what this means is that transmen are more likely than biological men to go bald! Since they have two X chromosomes, they’ve got twice the chance of carrying the gene in the first place.

http://clarebayley.com/2013/07/genetic-baldness-in-transgender-men/

Last edited by Tuxie400 (11/14/2016 12:22 pm)

lara1 · 11/14/2016 12:54 pm

Tuxie400 #147. I looked into the case studies houses some more and it looks like all the ones built were in California, most in the area of LA. That's interesting as I figured they (dom and family) were somewhere east coast. I guess at some point they moved or maybe Katarina went to school there... near LA...I'm going to look further at the houses that were built and their actual locations

Just when you think you have a piece figured out...well at least that does confirm the US connection if not actual location!!!🤔

Last edited by lara1 (11/14/2016 12:56 pm)

Tuxie400 · 11/14/2016 1:16 pm

lara1 #153 - Although most case study houses were built in the LA area, there was one in San Fracisco, one in Phoenix, and one in Smoke Rise, New Jersey. Like you, I would have though Katarina lived on the East Coast. Maybe it was the Smoke Rise, New Jersey one. Smoke Rise is an exclusive gated community around a lake that's about an hour away from New York City.

Honey West · 11/14/2016 4:25 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
lara1 #153 - Although most case study houses were built in the LA area, there was one in San Fracisco, one in Phoenix, and one in Smoke Rise, New Jersey. Like you, I would have though Katarina lived on the East Coast. Maybe it was the Smoke Rise, New Jersey one. Smoke Rise is an exclusive gated community around a lake that's about an hour away from New York City.

The "house on the water" perhaps?

lara1 · 11/14/2016 5:48 pm

Tuxie400 #154 - thanks for that! My info said that the Smoke Rise case study one was never built, so that must be incorrect. But, hey this is fiction and it should be the east coast anyway! haha

Honey West - yes, that's exactly what I thought! LOL

Last edited by lara1 (11/14/2016 5:49 pm)

Tuxie400 · 11/14/2016 6:58 pm

lara1 #156 - You are right. The Smoke Rise, NJ house, was not built. I misread the sentence. It would have been a great "house by the water" though.

lara1 · 11/14/2016 8:37 pm

Tuxie400 wrote:
lara1 #156 - You are right. The Smoke Rise, NJ house, was not built. I misread the sentence. It would have been a great "house by the water" though.

Oh drat! here I thought we had possible vague connection with Cape May.......!! ha

Well if most houses were built in California, that is another new line of investigation --- good catch, I never even looked that up, I assumed Kirk was talking about some obscure Russia reference. Then again it didn't make complete sense like that!

lara1 · 11/14/2016 11:28 pm

Well, Tuxie400, I finally got to re-watch the episode tonight and judging on body language and Spader's expressions alone, I would agree there is a case for the mother theory. Many of the close ups are intense focus on the look in Spader's eyes. Trying to show us what Red is thinking....what is in his mind.....So is it the drugs and intense pain and him trying to keep focused and read Kirk and try to think of a way out, or is it something more? Whatever it was, Red was definitely teeing up something with Kirk with his decision to ask him to talk about Katarina. To gauge Kirk's feelings, perhaps. Though I think if Red were Katarina, he would know that and wouldn't have to find out.

I am open to any theory but there's still a lot that doesn't fit -Red's reactions to Naomi's kidnapping and their good bye scene for one. Still I am thinking about it, anything is possible and most theories have gaps or things that don't fit! LOL. Well, whatever it was, was very intense!

They have left it so ambiguous. At face value, I would say Red is saying he is her father. if you think about it, some things about that don't line up either! LOL,. And that was under duress and since when has Red spilled any beans under torture especially about Liz and he might have been saying it for disinformation - to satisfy Kirk but still hope they would both walk out the door with Kirk (and anyone else) still not knowing who is/was Liz's father.

I think we still don't know enough about Red or Katarina to really conclude things one way or the other and its certainly an interesting journey! but now I have to go and think back through all of the possibilities out of that scene.

Edited to add: on a personal level, it does not matter to me when we find out who is Liz's father. What is more interesting to me is why she is important and why the blacklist is centered around her - as Red said, who she is, what it is about her, that makes her important.......

Last edited by lara1 (11/14/2016 11:34 pm)

Laocoon · 11/15/2016 10:57 am

Great ideas, all!

I'm going to skip around on a few themes here, continually perplexing matters.

I haven't thought about the Takoma Park house for a while. I'm skeptical that blowing up the house was totally emotional. While I acknowledge Red's feelings, I lean more toward thinking he was leaving no tracks. He acted like he was doing what he had to do. Once the residents moved out and put the house up for sale, he had a chance to completely destroy it and any evidence it held.

Red is so clear about Elizabeth vs Masha in the Kirk conclusion that I'm looking for two girls here, maybe twins or half-siblings. We've seen that theme repeated.

The hat at Liz's at the end of Kirk may tie in with suspicions that this was an op that Tom was involved in. Liz seems happy to see Red but not shocked as she might if he were gone. Happy as in relieved that a risky op worked.