The Blacklist Refugees

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7/25/2018 11:10 am  #261


Re: Redorina?!?!?

Tatiana - Thanks for the link. I saw the picture and watched the youtube video link.  From his very masculine face and body, I would never guess he had once been a woman.  And his voice sounded masculine too.

 

7/27/2018 3:29 pm  #262


Re: Redorina?!?!?

Friends, I know that most Blacklist followers are pretty unconvinced that Red could possibly be Redarina. And the biggest hurdle is that Red is a pretty darned virile man, or at least he appears that way. I wrote up something and posted it on the FB for Redarina theorist page and I just wanted to copy it here too in case anyone was interested. 
_____________________________________________

Caution: some readers may find some of this material to be sensitive.

I'm 100% convinced, by following all the clues and 'thinking differently' as Red tells Liz, that Red is Liz's mother.
And I'm pretty sure everything, even relationships with women, can be explained. But it's a sensitive issue.

While no ethical physician, psychologist, specialist of any sort, would agree to transitioning a female to male who did not truly exhibit a deep belief of their gender, The Blacklist certainly has depicted medical advances being used in 'unethical' ways. In fact, I would suggest that almost all of the depictions we see are 'off label': there's something suspect about them.

Examples: Dr. Covington, etc.
Kirk, Conclusion
etc.

He dates women.

Further, while Red is depicted as a virile heterosexual male, if he is transgendered, would a potential paramour still reject him?

"He’s made you feel a connection that makes you feel like you matter somehow. And there’s no one on earth who can make a woman feel like the center of his universe more than Raymond Reddington."

"I was star-struck. He made me feel like I was the center of his universe. It was exciting and captivating and… it consumed me."

The Blacklist is not afraid to depict sexuality on a continuum rather than a polarity. There are plenty of strictly heterosexual relationships but there are also significant homosexual relationships, eg. Kathryn/Kate Nemec and her beloved Annie Kaplan.

Vanessa Cruz is in the middle. We know that the actions she takes are in retaliation for the people who killed her husband, a man she loved deeply. But now we see that she is in a loving and sexual relationship with another woman. 
But … how could he date women and they wouldn’t know?
'Be careful Donald. She hates cops and she hates men even more'. Red says to Ressler of Luli

Maybe they do know, but because he makes them feel so good, they don’t care. Or maybe for women sexuality is more about what’s going on in their heads than what’s going on under the belt.

To be honest, I completely rejected the Redarina theory because of the medical complexities which would preclude it, but there are a few things to keep in mind.

1. Red is completely off the radar for 4-5 years, plenty of time to transition. 
2. Raymond Reddington has any and all resources at his disposal. Yes, it took him a while to build his complex but solid empire. But his organization is built with concentric construction. "He literally built castles within castles" he tells Mr. Kaplan. 
3. He makes use of medical mobile units. Regardless of where he is, medical care is a phone call away. 
4. Dr. Maltz confirms that he’s had plastic surgery (General Ludd). Plus, the good doctor served the criminal market for those who wished to disappear.

There are transsexual men who have had all the surgery so that they could 'pass' as male (terminology used in the LBGTQ community). Surgery would allow a transman to stand up while urinating and would create a reasonable facsimile of male genitalia. There are limits but I will not go there. Suffice it to say, transmen have successfully made complete transitions without many people even suspecting they were born a different gender.

The most compelling argument of course is all the facts. And all the facts lead us to one conclusion.

Redarina.

And yes, there is a precedent which allows us to go there and that is The Djinn. In my opinion, Djinn is a reverse parallel to Dom and Red: in the Djinn she is forced under the knife by her father to become a woman even though he was happy to be a man. In so doing, his father also cuts him out of his rightful inheritance as the leader of their business.

And in retaliation the child tortures the father.

In The Artax Network, it is Katarina who willingly goes under the knife and in so doing her own father rejects her, he no longer can be called grandfather. She cuts Dom out of his rightful role as grandfather. And even as father:

"Stop torturing me!!" Dom exclaims.


"I could tell you how to win a marathon, but you're assuming it's a 26.2 mile race. It's not. It's a 6.2 mile race that begins at mile 20." Raymond Reddington
 

7/27/2018 10:05 pm  #263


Re: Redorina?!?!?

Tatiana - So you are 100 percent convinced now.  I'm at 80 percent. I think Red is either Katarina or (20 percent) the protector alter in a multiple personality situation. 

 

7/28/2018 7:16 am  #264


Re: Redorina?!?!?

Tuxie400 wrote:

Tatiana - So you are 100 percent convinced now.  I'm at 80 percent. I think Red is either Katarina or (20 percent) the protector alter in a multiple personality situation. 

It could still go that route.

There is undoubtedly a theme of head/brain injury, communicating with the dead, identity, angel/devil, fighting for a soul, etc. And I think all of that could go in different directions. 

There is the pattern of hospitals/medical services which you and Lara have aptly pointed out. I am attributing them to the fact that transitioning would require a lot of medical intervention. It would also point to it being more than a mind/head thing, but to the physicality of the whole body.

And there's a lot of reference to gender and sex. 

I find The Djinn reverse parallel to be quite compelling. 

However, this show always keeps us guessing, so I wouldn't mind if it turns out to be something different!


"I could tell you how to win a marathon, but you're assuming it's a 26.2 mile race. It's not. It's a 6.2 mile race that begins at mile 20." Raymond Reddington
 

7/30/2018 10:30 am  #265


Re: Redorina?!?!?

I can't commit to any camp (although the Redorina theory pulls ahead by a red hair), but love reading everyone's theories. I would love and support a crazy twist that no one see's coming. With that said, I will always want  the Red we know and love to be the father of Elizabeth/Masha (if they are 100% one in the same ). Keep the theories coming!

 

7/30/2018 10:20 pm  #266


Re: Redorina?!?!?

Patter - LOL on the Redorina theory pulling ahead by a red hair.  I love to be surprised, so I would be happy if it turns out to be a crazy twist no one thought about.

 

1/14/2019 12:58 pm  #267


Re: Redorina?!?!?

Assumptions of Gender

After reviewing the Pilot and the second episode of this series, I discovered a secret in the script. I'd like to share it with you and see if we can generate a discussion here.

https://tatianareddington.tumblr.com/post/181990961636/he-is-her-and-she-is-him


"I could tell you how to win a marathon, but you're assuming it's a 26.2 mile race. It's not. It's a 6.2 mile race that begins at mile 20." Raymond Reddington
 

1/14/2019 2:01 pm  #268


Re: Redorina?!?!?

This is a great list of gender role reversals in BL, and I think they support the Redarina theory very well.  You very accurately portray the gender reversals of Tom and Liz. Even when Tom left his schoolteacher persona, he still was shown as the more nurturing parent - the one willing to stay home with Agnes.

I always thought Mr. Kaplan was a huge clue. When Red told Liz to phone Mr. Kaplan, she expected the contact to be a man. How surprised she was when Mr. Kaplan turned out to be a small woman who wouldn't even look her in the eye. For years fans asked why this character was called Mr. Kaplan. We finally found out in Requiem it was after her lover who tragically died.  Since then, I've been saying this is a parallel to how Katarina took on the name of Raymond Reddington, and I believe it today more than ever.

The Blacklisters you write about - the criminals believed to be men - were put in the series for a reason. I believe that reason is to be a parallel to Redarina. The Judge is a great example, and she was also called mother in the episode. The Deer Hunter and Eleanor Dawson in The Travel Agency were both women behind the men. Both were able to commit their crimes in the same way as their husbands and to avoid detection for many years.The Deer Hunter did it to help the weak and innocent, while Dawson had her husband carry out the crimes for revenge. Red has been a mission of revenge, while also helping the weak and innocent.

When I read an interview with Bokenkamp talking about how people other than writers had come up with stories and lines used in the show,  I wasn't at all surprised when he said his wife was responsible for Red's line in the pilot about Liz getting rid of her highlights. That was an indication to me that he needed something in Red's opening dialog with Liz that was something a woman would say. To me, that's even more of a tip off for Redarina than the line, "Everything about me is a lie."  And Red would go on to notice Lizzie's hair changes in Seasons 2 and 3. The hair comments are Redarina clues.

 

1/14/2019 2:13 pm  #269


Re: Redorina?!?!?

During my rewatch, I also noted how many female characters were heads of criminal organizations. That would also mirror Redarina
1:02 the duplicitous Floriana Campos
2.02 Apolonia, the bakery owner and arms dealer
2:12 Ruth the ruthless, who had Hellfire missil
es stored at the Kenyon compound
4:11 Margot Rochet, who ran The Harem
4:13 Isabella Stone, who would stop at nothing to ruin a target’s reputation
Mr. Kaplan in Season 4

 

1/14/2019 2:15 pm  #270


Re: Redorina?!?!?

I also thought the Jolene character was a Redarina clue: a red-haired honeypot operative who faked her death and followed Red to all the places he's been.

 

1/14/2019 2:58 pm  #271


Re: Redorina?!?!?

Definitely agree, Tuxie! 
I have been saying for some time now that this show is all about women: the first episode proved it with the gender role reversal.  The number of women in leadership positions is quite significant, too. Diane Fowler, Revin Wright, Laurel Hitchin, Cynthia Panabake; the female blacklisters who were recognized in their own right and the female blacklisters who were assumed to be male. There's also the characters who are dominant in the storyline: Liz, Katarina who presumably became Reddington, Scottie Hargrave, Mr. Kaplan, etc. 

I really like your parallel of Mr. Kaplan as the name Kate took on of her deceased loved one and Reddington as the name Katarina took on of her beloved deceased.



 


"I could tell you how to win a marathon, but you're assuming it's a 26.2 mile race. It's not. It's a 6.2 mile race that begins at mile 20." Raymond Reddington
 

1/15/2019 11:15 am  #272


Re: Redorina?!?!?

Tatiana - You are right about all the strong women in government leadership roles. It's interesting that Cooper's bosses have been women, and that Laurel Hitchin was leading the Cabal in later episodes.

 

1/15/2019 1:29 pm  #273


Re: Redorina?!?!?

One of the things I notice in Season 1 is how many times "mother" is dropped into the story in both dialog and plot. In many of these episodes, you wouldn't have to use the word mother in the dialog, but it's there, and it seems purposeful to me.  While the main focus seems to be on fathers in Season 1, mother clues are spread heavily throughout.
1.01  Liz was "abandoned by a mother who died of weakness and shame."  Liz is seeking to become a mother through adoption.
1.02  Floriana Campo to Liz: “There is no work more meaningful than being a mother.”
1.04  Stanley Kornish to Liz: "What about you? Are you a mother?"
1.05  Tom gives Liz news that Jeni, the mother, is giving them her baby to adopt and they need to attend the ultrasound.
Red to Liz: He (Frederick Hemstead, the writer) was living here with his mother until she died."
1.07  Frederick Barnes' lab partner is the mother of his son, who has a rare disease.
1.08 Mary the counterfeiter, is a mother and criminal.
1.11 The Good Samaritan Killer was motivated by the child abuse (violence) his mother perpetrated on him. He kills a mother who was abusing her son.
1.12  Liz and Tom have an argument over maternity leave at their baby shower. The mother of the Alchemist's daughter shoots him to get help for her wounded child.
1.13  Young women are kidnapped to become mothers of perfect newborns at the Cyprus Agency. Liz backs out of the adoption and decides not to become a mother. When Meera is late to the office because of Red's interrogation, she plays the mother card to Cooper, saying her daughter was sick.
1:15  Three characters say "Good Night, Mother." to Ruth Kipling, The Judge. The phrase is what helps Liz crack the case. This always seemed like a big nod to mother theory to me. In this episode, Tom and Jolene at a teacher's conference talk about a student's mother having an affair with a teacher.
1:16  Red talking to Christine about having the ballet ready:  " I’ll see you on the 22nd. And please send my thanks to your mother. " Ressler finds the pregnancy test indicating that Audrey was going to be a mother.
1:18  Red and Dembe take Craig to an art exhibit where he sees they have his mother in a wheelchair.
1:20  Liz is asking Chandler about the accident that killed his wife when they talk about how traumatized the daughter must be. "She's heartbroken. Her mother was everything to her. She was everything to us both."


















 

Last edited by Tuxie400 (1/15/2019 1:46 pm)

 

1/18/2019 10:39 pm  #274


Re: Redorina?!?!?

From the Pawnbrokers episode, It is obvious to me that Rederina was familiar with using a "rat line" and probably had used that method during previous incarcerations to get his testosterone smuggled inside prison walls.  

Last edited by Tuxie400 (1/23/2019 12:06 pm)

 

1/23/2019 12:15 pm  #275


Re: Redorina?!?!?

Redarina debunkers on other sites are saying the Redarina theory is dead. But I dont' see anything on screen that would kill it.  There wasn't even a mention of a strip search. If Red can come up with ingenious ideas like his "rat line," he could figure out ways to get testosterone inside a prison.  We were reminded of how he bribes officials with the police officer in 6.02.  And I don't see how the 1991 date for plastic surgery negates the Redarina theory at all. I still think there was some way real RR was made to still be operating between the fire and 1990 by sending radio messages or coded written messages back to his superiors. Katarina, the spy master, would have learned about how he did that and copied the process. I remain between 70-80 percent Redarina on any given day.  But I never put all my eggs in one basket.

 

3/22/2019 10:01 am  #276


Re: Redorina?!?!?

Many people protest against the Redarina theory because they say the actress playing Katarina is too short, despite the fact that in Cape May they are depicted as same height.
Here's some Hollywood History of short actors that I find fascinating:

Apple boxes were so often used to boost shorter actors’ heights – from film noir star Alan Ladd (5’6”) to Tom Cruise (5’7”) – that they became nicknamed “man makers”.

Oh my god, it doesn't get better than this... Man Makers??? LOL! and "apple boxes"??? omg the apple imagery is everywhere, including Tansi Farms!

https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/film/2016/04/tall-and-short-it-does-size-matter-men-hollywood

 


"I could tell you how to win a marathon, but you're assuming it's a 26.2 mile race. It's not. It's a 6.2 mile race that begins at mile 20." Raymond Reddington
 

3/22/2019 12:01 pm  #277


Re: Redorina?!?!?

I like this about the apple boxes being "Man Makers."

 

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