The Blacklist Refugees » Who, what, when, why, where

lara1 · 5/30/2018 11:08 am

Tatiana:
"I see that moment when she strokes his face as the older Katarina reassuring today's Red that he made the right choice."

That is what I have thought as well. And I did not see it as a romantic gesture. Some kind of feeling and affection between them but not romantic.

Eastcoast - I agree Red does come off at times, in Season 1, as a bit creepy and menacing. In the pilot alone, I thought he was creepy. Which is why I had a big ?? over the father thing, unless that behavior was a calculated ruse to throw all off the track, so to speak.

Tuxie400 - That is an interesting point about the locket. Although, Cape May was filmed after Artax so the locket thing came later. I do think though that its quite weird to have KR talking to herself and stroking her own cheek, as "current" "Rederina" holds the locket. Its possible, though - and maybe why "current" Red was so keen to get "his" hands on the locket from the guy on the beach.....

Last edited by lara1 (5/30/2018 11:09 am)

Tuxie400 · 6/01/2018 10:13 am

lara1 wrote:
Tuxie400 - That is an interesting point about the locket. Although, Cape May was filmed after Artax so the locket thing came later. I do think though that its quite weird to have KR talking to herself and stroking her own cheek, as "current" "Rederina" holds the locket. Its possible, though - and maybe why "current" Red was so keen to get "his" hands on the locket from the guy on the beach.....

Although Cape May was filmed after Artax, I think the Cape May script was written first. I think the order of filming was based on when the guest actors were available and the hope that the ocean water would be warmer later for the drowning scene. Spader has called the Cape May episode "introspection." I don't think it seems weird at all for Katarina to be talking to herself. The stroking the cheek is all part of the writing misdirection, in my opinion.

Honey West · 6/01/2018 2:58 pm

I still think he's Katarina's brother. And Dom's son. Who disappointed him with some of his choices he made for his life.

I do think that some lines that were written in earlier episodes were written the way they were (ambiguously) because otherwise they would have given it away too early.
Such as Dom's line about "you killed my entire family". He couldn’t have very well said "our". He could only say "my" or "the", in reality.

Last edited by Honey West (6/01/2018 3:03 pm)

KathyN · 6/01/2018 3:22 pm

I have amended my theory.   Eight months until BL returns, I'm sure there will be many more iterations. I base this on my newfound belief that Katarina is alive and was presented to the viewers in the Lady Ambrosia episode as Vasilia Patinka. (see my above posts and this youtube I'll post again for reference). If so, FakeRed has known Katarina has been alive this whole time.

So when Sam said she deserved the truth, and when Dom said she should be told the truth - that's the truth - that her mother is still alive and living in Maryland somewhere with her half-sister who is deaf and who disappared a few years ago (Anya, who FakeRed brought back from Lady Ambrosia and returned to her mother - without letting the authorities find her first, btw, he took her out of there before the FBI arrived).

I'm not sure if Dembe or Kaplan knew Katarina was still alive. I get the feeling from the video that Dembe does not know that Vasilia is Katarina, and we do know that Kaplan did not know about Dom, so Red did keep secrets. (Dembe does know Dom is important to Red, because he's driven him to that house twice, but does he know why? Does Red tell him everything?)   And maybe they did know she's alive, just didn't know where she was or what name she was living under. Maybe that's why Dembe said Liz would may never forgive what Red did to Katarina (forced her into hiding and to give up her daughter), maybe that's why Kaplan was apologizing to Katarina - that she was going to reveal to Liz that her mother was alive and abandoned her to Sam.

All that now in consideration, this is how I've tweaked my theory.   I still believe FakeRed was in the Oleander program to impersonate an American, that American was Raymond Reddington, he took his identity to steal the fulcrum at Oleander's instruction.   The plan went sideways because FakeRed didn't kill RealRed at Katarina's behest.   RealRed stole back the fulcrum and took Masha. Katarina and FakeRed followed him back to America - RealRed shot by Liz. Fire in the house, Liz hides in closet. FakeRed had to choose - save RealRed and find out where the fulcrum is and save Katarina from the Russians who would kill her for letting RealRed live and lose the fulcrum or go back into the fire and save Liz. He saved Liz and Katarina was a marked woman. So FakeRed goes through the flames to save Liz, gets burned, passes out on the floor. Katarina takes RealRed's body from the fire, leaving FakeRed. FakeRed told the firemen he was Reddington, etc so that he could continue the con and to save Masha from a homicide investigation. In the meantime, Katarina's life was marked. Both the Russians and the Americans were after her. She faked her death and undertook a new identity - eventually remarrying and having another daughter, born in 2004, when Katarina was probably in her 40's, born deaf, named Anya, who was kidnapped by Lady Ambrosia, probably orchestrated by her husband, because Lady Ambrosia took children one parent wanted to put up for adoption. So she was betrayed by another man, and lost another daughter. As FakeRed said - he couldn't have endured what she endured. When FakeRed told her he couldn't find the fulcrum and she knew her life was over, FakeRed promised her that if she went into hiding, he'd watch over Masha as if she was his own child and that he would protect her until his dying breath.   In the meantime, FakeRed's family was all killed by the Russians when he didn't return with the fulcrum, a heavy price he paid to protect Katarina. That's why those lines in their conversation had so much meaning. He lost his wife, his child and his life (the life he had before becoming FakeRed). And she was grateful to him and he was grateful to her.   Beautiful scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9zg4S-GHew

Also, for fun, compare the young actresses who paid young Liz (there were two) with the actress who played Anya. They could definitely pass for sisters. (edited to add links to pictures instead of posting them because they seem to have come out oversized and they don't fit the post box)

Young Liz 1: Lilly Lewinter
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm8468667/mediaviewer/rm1367684864

Young Liz 2: Jillian Lebling
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm6559211/mediaviewer/rm886240256

Anya (possibly Liz's half sister) : Gracie Beardsley
https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view-screencap.php?tv-show=the-blacklist-2013&image=s03e14_579

Last edited by KathyN (6/02/2018 12:37 am)

lara1 · 6/02/2018 9:48 am

HI KathyN, really enjoyed reading your well thought out post, and some interesting ideas. I don't know about Vasilia being Katarina, though. To me, she doesn't seem old enough. That said, I think there may be some connection to Katarina. We have seen various redheads, in fact, a higher percentage, proportionately, than there should be, really, coming across our screens during the series. I think this serves to reinforce the idea that Katarina may still be alive, somewhere. And with Vasilia, that idea is heightened due to her past, and that Red shares that past with her in some way - he knew her back when.

When is "when" though is another question. Late eighties, or more recently, don't know.

I also liked your comparison of Anya to little Liz. That is really interesting. For me, that draws a further parallel with KR, and I think that further cements the idea that KR is out there somewhere.

And she may be Vasilia. For now though, I don't think so. But she's there to tell us that KR is still out there, alive. Well, that's my take, anyway.

Tatiana · 6/02/2018 10:05 am

I woke from a dream in which u had solved the entire Blacklist puzzle. I remember someone telling me to keep a notebook by my bedside to write down dreams. Alas, no notebook.

KathyN: thank you for your very thorough theory. While I agree with Lara regarding Vasilia there is no doubt this was a very important episode. I remember we had a lot of discussion, and indeed several people thought Vasilia was Katarina, there hasn't been any further reference to her or her daughter, nor was there any prior to this episode. The themes from it are core to the main themes of the show.

Eastcoast · 6/02/2018 12:56 pm

KathyN, that is an interesting theory. I have no doubt we will all have Many of them as we ponder this in the months to come.

Tatiana!!!! Put a book and pen by your bed! Lol

lara1 · 6/02/2018 1:54 pm

Eastcoast - LOL! Yes, Tatiana, a notebook by the bed! haha

Tatiana · 6/02/2018 2:14 pm

Lara - so do you think Katarina is still alive? I'd be curious if you or other fans believe she's alive but maybe in hiding or something. I've often thought Katarina was alive but through the Redarina theory.

KathyN · 6/02/2018 3:12 pm

I know you didn't ask me directly, but as a long time fan I'll give my 2 cents. I've always wondered if she was alive, from the beginning of the series, but I thought she'd show up as some big adversary, not as a school teacher who is living a quiet life away from the spying world. But if you look at how Dom is living, it sort of fits that she'd be a retired spy trying to live a quiet life.

As for the other comments about Vaisila being Katarina, I agree there are some problems with it. But I still think there's a good chance she is. Maybe 70% chance. The problems to me are the actress who plays Vasilia is just turning 40, but she'd be playing a character in her early 50's. I guess with some wrinkle type makeup it could be believable. She also has an accent, the flashback Katarina did not (nor does Dom). I guess that could be explained away too. The hardest part of this theory is if Katarina is Vasilia, and if Liz's life was in danger from something Katarina did, it would seem she'd be more interested in Liz's life and in helping Red by giving him the Glastnost file as soon as he asked her for it. When FakeRed got the file, he said it was worse than he thought, and yet Vasilia didn't seem to be concerned about it at all as she's had the file for years and stayed away from Liz. Or was Katarina still trying to protect Liz from FakeRed and is that why she wouldn't hand over the file without him meeting a condition she thought would be impossible for him to meet? And one that meant the world to her if he did meet it. She definitely did not seem happy to see FakeRed when he walked in that door. And she didn't soften up to him until the very end of his jail signing story, with him reminding her of all he's lost. Maybe she wants him away from Liz and didn't want him to have that file because she was trying to protect her.

And here's another storyline yet to be unraveled, which could take a few seasons even after they tell us who FakeRed really is. Why does FakeRed think he still needs to protect Liz? The world already knows she's Masha Rostova, that secret is out. They also know she was on the run with Raymond Reddington, so her association with him has been out there for a few years too. (although why didn't Ian Garvey know it?) Constantine isn't looking for her. The Cabal has the fulcrum back, they aren't a threat to her. The Major is dead and Tom's contemporaries aren't looking for her. Sam is dead. Kate is dead. Carla, met her, she isn't a threat, whether or not she's still alive (and I am betting she is, lots of fake deaths on the BL - think of the parallels between Jennifer and Liz - both disgusted with the monster side of their male stand-in fathers, both have mothers who fake their deaths, they really are mirrors to each other....).

And yet FakeRed is acting like her life is still in danger from something. Something big, the big motivator as to why he had/has to be in her life and why Dom and Katarina have to be out of it. So even if they solve the mystery of who FakeRed really is and what happened the night of the fire, and even if they bring back Katarina - there's still plenty of story to be told. I hope they don't drag out next season with episode after episode of Angry Liz plotting against FakeRed. This has been done ad nauseam in the show, and there is so much good story left they can tell for many seasons. I don't want them to lose viewers now that it's really getting good!

KathyN · 6/02/2018 3:15 pm

One more thing I wanted to mention. This hit me like a flash, it was a real a-ha moment!

Recall this dialogue:

Kaplan: I was so focused on you, I didn't see that getting you away from her is unnecessary. All I have to do is give her the truth.
Red: I don't know what that means.
Kaplan: Our secret. At Tansi Farms.
Red: What have you done?

The 'our secret' - maybe it wasn't 'our secret' as in hers and FakeRed's secret, but 'our secret' as in hers and Katarina's secret! Maybe she and Katarina buried RealRed there, and they left their K initial in the tree to mark the grave (both of them are K's, Katarina and Kate Kaplan). If it was her and Katarina's secret, of course she'd say she was sorry to Katarina for digging up the body and revealing that secret to Liz!

lara1 · 6/02/2018 5:17 pm

Tatiana, I tend to be on the side of the fence that thinks KR is alive. Because there have been so many "visions" of her, if you like, through all of the redheads throughout the series. But I still don't subscribe to Rederina. Where KR is, and what state she is in, and how these "alternate KR visions" manifest themselves, I am still thinking through.

Eastcoast · 6/08/2018 10:13 pm

I go back and forth about her being alive or not. As soon as I think she's alive, I find something to think she is dead.

NP · 6/09/2018 10:00 am

I've been looking thru the BL from start and taking notes (has anyone noticed that Red does this certain mouth movement when he feels uncomfortable, like grinding his back teeth together or something...?)

Our Red truly cares for Lizzy, we've seen that many times. I wonder if he is replacing his lost daughter with Masha? (in the first season he tells to Gina? how he came home in Christmas and found his family killed, "blood everywhere"). In the fire dialogue from when Lizzy was taken and forced to remember there is a part where man and woman argue, woman asking where is Masha and man answering that her name is Elizabeth. To Rostov he says that Elizabeth is my daughter when Rostov asks is Masha your daughter.

-RR wife knew the truth, from what I can tell from the episode where they are in the cabin. When they see each other, Red says that she has changed, where Carla/Naomi replies "not as much as you." She also refers Jennifer as Her daughter and not telling Red where she is.
If timeline I found in this forum is accurate, then RR was killed earlier than Reddington going missing, almost by a year, meaning that our Red had to take RR identity 'cause Lizzy shot the original.

-Personally I think that Red is originally a good person, who is forced to become a bad villain in order to protect Lizzy and her knowledge of the location of Fulcrum. Our Red was probably the one who took Lizzy to the States, maybe 'cause she was so much like his own, killed daughter and could not bare to see suffering from her mother's neglect? (she was mostly in the care of Kate).
Things that speak in behalf of Red being a decent guy in the core is, that he did everything he could to save Ressler in the Anslo Garrick episode, only being forced to hurt him to save Lizzy. There are also other acts of kindess and mercy like in the same episode Red cares for the lives of the innocent in the facility, demanding Harold to evacuate them. Similar things have happened here and there.(like in the past taking Dembe in.)
Red also has offered (sometimes bit offensively) to remove himself from Lizzy's life, but every time Liz has said/done something to halt this.

-Red said to Kate in some flashback episode that the whole syndicate was created to protect Lizzy, (due Fulcrum.)

-RR was someone who was not a good person, Katarina called Masha's father a bad man and Naomi/Carla was out of words and anxious when she spoke with Red about who she had been married to.

Some theories I have:
-RR was the one who killed our Red's family maybe thru mistaken identity, 'cause Red does not know the reason for his family's destiny.
-Red might have taken Masha and turned her in to Lizzy to protect her from Katarina's degrading mental stability after she learned RR's role in the Cabal and role in our Red's family's death, maybe considering the child now "unclean" as being daughter of such a man. (thus adoring, not loving, her for this connection).
-Katarina is alive, since someone named Rostova ordered the painting of Reddington... maybe she'll be revealed in S06.
-Red could be a fellow Naval officer to RR, he knew Sam before Liz was born, but did not know Katarina as a child, as he say's to Dom that he imagines what young Katarina looked like with gold glitter covering her. That could explain his naval stories and his ability to discuss with RR's old Navy buddy.
-On the other hand he starts to address U.S goverment as your government during season 2, telling that he is actually not born and bred American and thus could have a blood connection to Lizzy thru her mother and Dom, not to mention he does a perfect Russian accent when ever saying russian names. (have to keep taking note if he used proper pronounciation when calling other national's names)

Eastcoast · 6/09/2018 3:35 pm

Welcome NP!

Enjoyed your comments.

We have noticed he twitches on the side of his face.

I think that was Madeline P. he told that story to.

I think Red has a good and bad side. If I knew him I would want to be his friend. Would not want to be on the wrong side of Red!!

NP · 6/09/2018 3:54 pm

Yeah, I'd rather be his friend too, Eastcoast.

One thing that came in to my mind since I started looking the series from the beginning was that if RR is a creation of Kingmaker, via orders. (Since in the pilot Reddington says to Liz that her father was a career criminal aka. someone who had been on the bad side for longer.) This and the description of RR before the disappearance made me think he was maybe someone like Tom had been. (which leads to next idea of Major having something to do with the RR identity.)

And yeah it was Maddy, on Gina whom he told the story.

The twitch is different, the thing I'm going after is Red opening his mouth a little and then moving his lower jaw little bit outward, then proceeding to grind his back teeth/biting inside of his cheek.

Honey West · 6/10/2018 12:18 pm

Welcome to the group, NP! I liked reading your post as it follows a lot of what I have thought based on the various clues that you cited. The "your government", "your country" references have always made me think that either he is foreign born or so embittered against something that the government did to him that he disowns them. I tended to think the latter until the confirmation that the real RR was in the duffel bag.

Speaking of duffel bag, it occurred to me that even though Red burned the bones, the skeleton was in such disarray that I wonder if Liz may have taken a bone or two to keep as evidence? She’s pretty lightfingered and could have easily done so.

I have also noted various little expressions and twitches with Red. They are actually very consistent and I believe are silent ways of telling us what he is thinking, since they usually happen when Liz gets a little too close in her questioning, or Dembe is telling him something he should do, etc.

As far as the time discrepancy between Red assuming RRs identity and when we think he died, I still think they could cover that by using the old cliched "accident victim swathed in bandages" thing. It would explain the time lag plus his altered appearance. If they go there, that is. Didn’t Red make some comment about cliches?

Yes, it is sounding like the real RR was not a good person. And Masha became Elizabeth pretty much overnight, probably through the memory alteration. That totally explains Sam telling Kate in Requiem that she prefers to be called Elizabeth now, and refusing to let her see Lizzie at all.

Just wanted to add about memory alterations that I think it’s very possible that Reds memory has been messed with, too. Maybe about his real family and their fate?

Anyway, back to RL!

Last edited by Honey West (6/10/2018 12:22 pm)

Tuxie400 · 6/10/2018 12:31 pm

Honey West - I like your idea that Liz may have lifted a bone to keep!

Eastcoast · 6/11/2018 10:19 pm

Honeywest, I wondered he same thing!! I thought she has probably picked up a tooth or even a finger or 2 with that paperwork,

Honey West · 6/11/2018 10:57 pm

Liz has been learning and becoming. We thought she was becoming more like Red, but I think actually she is becoming more like Katarina. A very intelligent and resourceful lady. When Red said that about her he sounded so full of admiration for her skills. I wonder if he and Katarina were in competition. Rivals.