The Blacklist Refugees » The Blacklist Episode 4.13 "Isabella Stone" Discussion

Big Badd Bazzer · 2/10/2017 11:29 am

lara1 wrote:
BBB #64 - makes sense. Harold really went to the "other side" during that whole Kirk arc. Let Red set up Kirk even though he knew what would happen, etc etc. Maybe because he empathized with Red, though.

So maybe Harold is trying to be back to the side of the line he was on originally. He has been increasingly standing up to Red in the past few episodes since the show came back from the break. And last episode he gave a Red a kind of dressing down over letting Red see Natalie. this time, it was a plain "NO".

I think the show-runners were encouraged by how they broke out Aram's character last season - so they tried to apply a soft side to the normally stiff & by-the-book Donald Ressler, trying to give Samar a bizarre sense of humor and restore Harold to to a pre-Red Defcon 2 warrior/paper-pusher
The Aram metamorphosis worked. Not so sure about Donald & Samar. The best change for Samar would be to turn her into a remorseless and vicious team protector - who crushes opponents with her Mossad skills and physical combat skills. . . . not just a funny muse for Aram.

Tatiana · 2/10/2017 12:11 pm

I have a growing theory which this episode seems to support:

1) Red had promised Liz that she would have her peaceful life, holding her daughter's hand, happily married.
2) Tom: Red has always said that Tom will never change. He's destined to be a hitman, etc.
3) Ressler: curious and unusual focus on his personal family life. We just don't see that. He frequently says, I need to be there with my family. He's a hard nosed, hard working guy, committed to taking down criminals. But is he having second thoughts?
4) Cuckoo: =19px"a cuckoo stands for symbol of a woman who lost someone she loved or who suffers from some misery" - this is from Lithuanian folklore (a small formerly soviet country) http://symbols.ehibou.com/cuckoo/
Another symbol of the cuckoo is "cuckolding" because the cuckoo lays its' eggs in another cuckoo's nest.
Both of these cuckoo symbols seem to tie into themes in TBL.

Tom is going to be compelled to live the life he knows and is so good at. This will cause Tom and Liz to "uncouple" (LOL)
Ressler will want to be a family man, finally and he and Liz will start to pair up.
Red, as he told the tale in the Stewmaker, will be compelled to finally pay.
Somehow, Liz will be the one to take him down. It will be huge.
She will then know the truth, but the truth won't matter. Because she will chose to live her life to the fullest.
In the end, Liz will be with Ressler and she will walk down the street with her daughter's hand in hers. (and Ressler holding the girl's other hand).

Tatiana · 2/10/2017 12:16 pm

Oh yeah, I forgot something really big.

Red is truly grieving for Kate. She was his soulmate. Sometimes I wonder if she is his wife. Or if she is Katerina.

Mr. Kaplan is behind Red's "character assassination"
She has access to all his information so he knows how to breakdown his empire.
And she is taking over.
Kate will take Red down.
And Liz will finally be free.

Honey West · 2/10/2017 3:47 pm

Good thinking, Tatiana #82 and #83. I also think that Liz will be the one who ultimately takes down Red. And that might be one reason why he can't tell her the truth. Because she might hesitate or not go through with it. Because that could be his final plan to give her a safe future. His enemies would certainly leave her alone after she did something like that. And his presence in her life would no longer be "death to her".

I wonder if Kate could be behind it all. She would certainly have the knowledge and the access to do it. All she would need would be a network of people to help her carry it out. Maybe there are people in Red's organization who have been questioning his leadership that might help her? But I think you are right, Red is truly grieving for her. Her betrayal shook him almost as much as losing Liz. Red wouldn't be taking any precautions against anything she could do to him because he thinks she's dead. That could be his biggest mistake. I'm still waiting for Liz and Dembe to go out to give her a decent burial and discover her body is gone. Of course, if they did that it would start the ball rolling to perhaps the end of the story, so I can see why that hasn't happened yet.

lara1 · 2/10/2017 4:06 pm

Tatiana - interesting thoughts, makes sense. (although I hope that Kaplan possibly taking down Red's empire wouldn't mean the end of the series in Season 4 - LOL!)

Tatiana and Honey West - I think the same, some version of it, that Liz somehow will be the one to finally take out Red. He either does something, reveals something, or she finds out something. I think that was foreshadowed (Maybe) by Liz's shooting of Red (if you believe she shot Red) - or at least of her father, the shooting of Connolly and when she pulled the gun on Red in the diner. Particularly in the last two instances, its almost like something triggered her to do it that she could not control. And when she shot the cop when they were on the run....

Red did promise her, with no uncertainty it seemed, that Liz would have the normal life she wants. If he's certain of that outcome, he must be very certain of his endgame - even if that endgame is ultimately the end of him.

Where they go with Liz/Ressler and Liz/Tom will be interesting. In some ways Liz as FBI agent is more like Ressler, certainly more like Ressler than like Tom. And if Tom, in going to Halcyon, starts to murder people again, Liz could view him differently. We shall see!

Last edited by lara1 (2/10/2017 4:08 pm)

Honey West · 2/10/2017 4:10 pm

I keep forgetting to add:
Ponytail and Muscle Shake.
LOL!

edited to reflect Shake not Milk - that's a brand name!

Last edited by Honey West (2/10/2017 9:08 pm)

Honey West · 2/10/2017 4:14 pm

I keep thinking that in the end Liz will end up with Ressler. But it won't be a straight path to get there, that's for sure!
Couple more things - Okay, I know Harold said way back in season one that working on the Task Force was a full-time job that came before everything else in their lives, but surely Ressler could have asked for a teensy bit of personal time off to be there for his brother, of all things! And second, why is Cooper and the FBI so mad about working on Red's personal agenda all of a sudden. It's what they've been doing since the beginning.

lara1 · 2/10/2017 4:31 pm

I finally got around to reading Jodi Walker's review of the episode. For the first time ever, I really disagreed with her and can't understand a "C". I thought the episode was very good, better than a couple other recent ones, it moved the story line along on a number of levels without being too obvious, it planted a lot of mythology symbols, it had Spader acting across a lot of his range - from perplexed to angry, to upset/emotional/caring to incredibly funny.

The episode has me very intrigued and I can't wait for next week!

Last edited by lara1 (2/10/2017 4:31 pm)

Tatiana · 2/10/2017 5:21 pm

Good point, Honey West. It makes sense that if Liz takes down Red and kills him, his enemies will be happy for it and they won't be able to touch him. If he is her father, he doesn't want to tell her because she might hesitate to kill him otherwise.

I also thought the change in the FBI attitude toward helping Red was quite a change. But if they're getting ready to tie up the loose ends and end the series, it would make sense that everyone would be against Red and he would eventually have no defenses. It also creates a situation where he is significantly unprotected.

Lara - I agree, I think there's symbols and mythology in this episode. The cuckoo clock was really intriguing. Red is fixing the works on the cuckoo clock (much like the music box) and it makes me wonder if it isn't some kind of symbolism for how he's manipulated both Liz and Tom's life (or maybe even Agnes' life). Then the folklore that the cuckoo symbolized unrequited love, or a painful loss. I found out some interesting things about the cuckoo that could enlighten the mystery of Liz's parentage!

Tatiana · 2/10/2017 5:40 pm

Honey West, were you the one who suggested that Red may have been an MI6?
Well cuckoos live in Britain when they mate and lay their eggs, then they fly to South Africa in August.
So here's a suggestion as to Liz's parentage:

We just saw Red building a cuckoo clock and saying it's not the time so much as the sound of the cuckoo that he likes the most.
In Britain the first sign of spring is the sound of the cuckoo. The cuckoo sound also is associated with how long you will live (interesting... especially if Red feels like the world is closing in around him and death is all around).
"The Common Cuckoo is a brood parasite. This is a bird that lays its eggs in the the nest of another species, leaving the foster parents to raise its young. Since maternal instinct sounds so natural, the cuckoo's shocking actions cried out for explanation.""The idea that the cuckoo thus "adulterates" the nest of another led to a connection between cuckoos and cuckoldry. Indeed, the word cuckold is derived from cuckoo. A song in Shakespeare describes spring as the time when,
The cuckoo then on every tree , Mocks married men, for thus he sings: Cuckoo!"
"These associations even spawned the idea that the cuckoo chick is the hybrid offspring of the foster mother and the philandering male cuckoo. "

The cuckoo 'mother' is able to lay her egg in someone else's nest within 4 seconds and she flies away. The cuckoo chick once hatched then literally pushes out the eggs of his foster siblings from the nest until he is left as the only child.

Honey West · 2/10/2017 6:16 pm

I love it when you post these insights, Tatiana! I don't think it was me who suggested MI6 for Red, although I still think he might have been CIA at one time. Another thing I have noticed is that Red fixes mechanical things for family members. So I guess if he is related to Dom via Liz, it makes sense when he fixed the piano key.

Also the idea that maybe Red's plan is for Liz to kill him could go many different ways. But I do think we got a lot of setup for that in Cape May. After all "Katarina" was Red talking things over with himself. I think after Red was "killed" on Fire Night that he and Katarina never spoke again and there was much regret over the way they parted with that big argument that night. Then later he had to choose which one of them he could save so he chose his child, condemning Katarina to a certain death. So in fact he really "killed" Katarina by not saving her. We discussed his feelings of guilt over something a long time ago on the other board, but that was way before Cape May or even before Red told Liz that her mother committed suicide at Cape May. But anyway, it could go down several paths. I think Red hasn't been ready to do anything about it until he is absolutely certain that Liz can take care of herself without him lurking in the shadows helping her. She has gradually gotten stronger and more decisive in her actions and reactions. Is she ready? Don't know. And would he just go through with it and get out of her life permanently or will he bring her into the plan if he thinks she can handle it? She has to be very convincing if she's part of it in order for it to work. That's if any of this is even near where they might be going. It's the way I would write it. LOL! Of course, I would give it a happy ending, too, but I have a feeling that's maybe not going to happen.

lara1, I wasn't totally in agreement with Jodi this week either. But I think maybe it should have been Isabella Stone pt 1. I am looking forward to next week, though.

lara1 · 2/10/2017 6:18 pm

Tatiana #90 - that's really intriguing about the cuckoo, thanks for sharing! I wasn't able to find all of that info.

Interesting that there is a UK connection (and we just found out about Red and MI-6); the symbolism of unrequited love, longing/desire or perhaps, loss of love, is also intriguing. The foster parents thing is also on point. Is it a reference to Katarina, maybe?

What you say on the FBI makes sense, it has been quietly building up for a little while, though, I think....at the end of season 3, with Cooper speculating about about Red's agenda that "he's not telling us..." and him being uncomfortable with how he thinks he has crossed, or is crossing the line. I don't know what it all means, though!

Last edited by lara1 (2/10/2017 6:18 pm)

ook ook book a book · 2/10/2017 6:38 pm

I also loved Dembe/Baz... a slightly decreased number of 'The Usual Suspects' (another stretched connection can be Edgar Legat = Keyser Soze)...

Am still waiting for Red to use the pseudonym of Alan Shore!

Big Badd Bazzer · 2/10/2017 7:19 pm

ook ook book a book wrote:
I also loved Dembe/Baz... a slightly decreased number of 'The Usual Suspects' (another stretched connection can be Edgar Legat = Keyser Soze)...

Am still waiting for Red to use the pseudonym of Alan Shore!

Good post ook - I think Spader is the only living American actor who could have played Verbal Kint (Keyser Soze) besides Kevin Spacey (who was absolutely brilliant in The Usual Suspects). Spader is actually an inch or two shorter than Spacey. . . . . and could easily have mimicked the gimpy gait Spacey made famous. Note I said living actor - from the dead actor's society - I think Spencer Tracy would have been the best, Bing Crosby a close 2nd Ray Walston or Frank Gorshin tied for 3rd.

lara1 · 2/10/2017 8:08 pm

A few more observations....

Kaplan may not have been in the episode but her presence was felt to me - The scene where Red leaves Santos, kisses him and leaves him the gun - reminded me of when Kaplan left Red in the ICU when he was under attack. Red implored Kaplan to leave, she left reluctantly and left him her gun. Here Santos implores Red to leave, Red reluctantly leaves but leaves him his gun...

Its logical to think that Kaplan is behind all of this, but then again I think - would she really do this? She's killing, or having killed, associates that she worked with over a long period of time as well and presumably grew close to in some way (Santos ran Red's Mediterranean (I think) shipping operations for 20 years). I would think that Kaplan had a lot of contact with him over the years.....And if Red thinks he knows who is after him (an "if" admittedly) it can't be Kaplan herself as he thinks she is dead so he would not think it is her....of course that's if he does not think/know that she is alive.....oh dear round in circles again!.

So was this scene reminiscent of Red and Kaplan meant to remind us of their closeness and maybe she would not be doing this?

Wild idea - what if Kaplan has been kidnapped by one of Red's adversaries (was the pick up in the truck planned and not a casual passerby?). Who then? And would she even reveal info on Red if that happened? There are many options I think....but I also think that Kaplan is somehow involved, if not attacking Red's interests, then being forced to do so, or she will help in the end. She's been in, mentioned, or her presence felt, in every episode this season, I believe.

But as someone else said yesterday - whoever it is has to have infiltrated Red's operations. So Kaplan, a mole, Hargrave.....even Tom might be a suspect, working with someone else....

Ok back to Earth now. LOL

Last edited by lara1 (2/10/2017 8:10 pm)

Honey West · 2/10/2017 9:05 pm

No, those are good points, lara1 #95. We have no idea who picked her up on the road. Although I tend to think it was a random stranger. Based on what she told The Hunter, I think she is still loyal to Red. She even told Tom "He knows what he has to do, but I'm not going to make it easy for him." I actually think Red was more upset about having to do it than actually doing it. And I think he almost relented at the last, but then steeled himself into being able to do it with that whole, stranger to me talk.

There are two things this season that seem to me like gaping holes. One is Kate of course, but the other is Red and Liz. They never really gave us a pay-off scene with them, either with Red expressing how he really felt about what she and Kate did to him or Liz telling him exactly why she did it. There was no reconciliation between them, just this sort of uneasy dealing with each other. Liz was happy when Red survived his encounter with Kirk, yes, but that's as far as it went. She won't let him come to the new apartment, although, as we saw, that didn't stop him, but he was there to see Tom and I think he made sure Liz didn't know he'd been there. Will we get any resolution any time soon? Who knows. But it would be nice, so they can move on from that. Unless that's the idea; that they won't.

Totally agree, lara1 about the similarities between Red/Santos and Red/Kaplan from "Leonard Caul".

Tuxie400 · 2/10/2017 9:18 pm

Tatiana and lara1 - Thanks for the reminders about the cuckoo lore.

lara1 - I see a definite parallel between the Red/Sartos scene and the Red/Kaplan scene from Leonard Caul. I don't think Kaplan would betray Red to this extent.

Everyone who commented on Jodi's EW recap: I agree that her rating was too harsh. I found this episode the most enjoyable of the new year. I did agree with one of her assessments: Ponytail and Muscle Shake, I'd watch that show too!

lara1 · 2/10/2017 10:01 pm

Honey West #96 - yes, I feel the same way about Liz/Red, like it was never resolved. But then again (as I think you mentioned too) maybe it can't be. Red keeps his feelings close - and perhaps he can't, or won't, ever reveal to Liz how her "death" impacted him. He says things like, he'll keep her safe, she's his priority, etc. but the closest he has ever come has been like what he said in this episode, something like I care about you and Agnes. that's a biggie for him, I think. then again, maybe he thinks that to reveal his feelings about her "death" would be revealing too much....

I don't even think Liz knows how much faking her death would hurt him, because I don't think she really knows the depth of his feelings. If I look at it from her perspective, he's an enigma - and his behavior might be as erratic and mystifying to her as hers is to us at times. She's just not sure where he's ever coming from (IMO of course)

What I was hoping for was some sort of side comment, almost by accident, from Ressler or Aram, that would partly spill the beans. Like she accidentally finds out. And may or may not tell him she has. But - something. Maybe that is yet to come before the season is out.

Big Badd Bazzer · 2/10/2017 10:14 pm

I think its critical for the show-runners to keep the Liz/Red relationship unresolved; queasy at best. If they close that story-line out too many other dominoes would have to fall and the show would be in danger of wrapping up. Its paying dividends for the show-runners, directors, writers, main actors, etc. so they must propagate the ship - even if it means some very foggy story-lines, change of character traits, etc.

lara1 · 2/10/2017 10:18 pm

Big Badd Bazzer wrote:
I think its critical for the show-runners to keep the Liz/Red relationship unresolved; queasy at best. If they close that story-line out too many other dominoes would have to fall and the show would be in danger of wrapping up. Its paying dividends for the show-runners, directors, writers, main actors, etc. so they must propagate the ship - even if it means some very foggy story-lines, change of character traits, etc.

BBB - good point. Resolving it reveals too much. having them settle into a comfy zone becomes boring and leaves the show with less room to grow and becomes predictable. Well that's my two cents!