Tuxie400 wrote:

So Red wanted the list to keep Kaplan's sister safe. That's a strange turn of events. I was surprised Liz confronted Red about Kaplan so soon. It was hard to tell if he was upset with Dembe for telling Liz or not. Red's keeping his feelings very close to the vest these days.

Lara - That line from Emma about feeling like the center of Red's universe jumped out at me too. It was very similar to what Carla said.

I wonder why Red wanted the cruise line?

 
I think he was more upset about Liz's knowing what he did and her disappointment. Then again he has always said he was a bad man. But Liz had tears in her eyes and knowing that Red was capable of the cold blooded murder of someone who was only trying to help her really bothers her. And Red is really upset by her knowing. The look on his face after she left was very similar to his expression when he thought she had died. At least she didn't call him a monster this time. She didn't have to. And I think he didn't get mad at Dembe because he knew he was going to have to deal with Liz's questions about where Kate was sooner or later. At least now it's out in the open.

I wonder what the relationship had been between Red and Emma back in the past. She said she went to work for him full time eight years ago. The thought flashed that maybe he was Will's father. But then I thought, well probably not, but maybe. Will was older than eight, but we don't know how long they had been "associated". The sad thing was that she felt that going to him and saying she wanted out seemed out of the question. And he seemed quite disturbed by that. She didn't trust him to not let her go and it appeared that she feared him too much to where she was desperate enough to do something like steal the list. Not the first associate who has told him this. And Kate saying that his people were losing confidence in him to be able to protect any of them.

The cruise ships were going to be used to smuggle things. And they were a good way to introduce a new adversary who was able to get pretty deep into Red's organization in order to foil his plan. Plus we got a nice new Red Quote: "I don't believe in coincidences."

But the most important thing that I took away was the question of just what was the relationship between Red and Maureen Rowan? And maybe even more important, between Red and the Russians who lived next door to her?

Red is apparently not the only super-criminal who can attack & re-direct financial assets. The ship-line buying thing was used primarily to illustrate the point. He also has to be more wary now than ever before of eroding loyalties in a new age of crime & digital surveillance. Mr. Kaplan went south on him in the most brazen of ways, then Emma in a more stealth way. Red learned that just by murdering those who didn't tow the line causes more problems than letting rotted stones lie.

Honey West - Yes, I suppose Red did want the ships for his smuggling operations- for both goods and people he would help disappear. This may be a salvo in the map of doom war, but it felt like a different unexpected assault to me. How better to cripple Red's operations than to take out his accountant?  I suspected Kaplan was involved.

BBB - "Red is apparently not the only super-criminal who can attack & re-direct financial assets. The ship-line buying thing was used primarily to illustrate the point."  
This was an excellent observation, and I agree.

The Season 4 episodes continue to mirror Season 1. Liz going undercover was reminiscent of when she went undercover as a thief in Madelyn Pratt. The attack on Red's financial assets mirror what Berlin was doing.

 

Last edited by Tuxie400 (1/20/2017 12:10 pm)

Hi Tuxie400 #46 - I agree with your observations about why did Red send Liz undercover?  He also didn't seem worried when things went dark and she hadn't been in contact - acc to the story, Emma had not yet made any contact with him (that was the restaurant scene when Liz followed Emma).  Between that and former MI-6 lady, if we hadn't had Red's reaction at liz's "death", I would be back to thinking that he is just telling Liz stories and manipulating her.  Because his grief over Liz was real.  He could have been grieving because she was his last hope at getting "back home" and that was now gone, but the way he held her hand against his face etc said more.

so I am wondering whether Red wanted Liz and Emma to meet.   But if so, why?  He must have suspected that Emma was on the edge, he had his real estate broker set up a house!  LOL.

I think the Liz as undercover might have been more believable if say she had a wig, contact lenses to change her eye color etc like Vanessa Cruz changed her appearance.  I am not sure why they did not think of that.  I read that this was the writer's first television episode but that should not have mattered as I think the show runners sign off on plot lines.  Maybe a longer period of time is meant to have elapsed than we see in TV time, but still.

Anyway, I still enjoyed the episode.  the new clues about Red are intriguing and while they fill in more of his past life, they of course open more questions.

I also think that the "war" seemed to be with a new person unknown to Red.  Or maybe he has thoughts on who it is but hasn't yet said.  I didn't get that this was anything from the map of doom.  But who knows, it could be.  We'll probably find out next week - I think Red has Tom going undercover - maybe to try to find out.  I still think it would be great if Katarina showed up as bad, bad, bad.  that's of course if Red is not Katarina.  

anyway just some next day ramblings......

Last edited by lara1 (1/20/2017 1:24 pm)

Honey West #41.  I think Red's reaction to Emma was similar to that he had with Liz when she did not come to him with the Tom as captive in a ship episode.   Though that was Liz's doing.  You had an interesting phrase in your comments - that Red felt that Emma did not trust him enough "to let her go".  In my mind, there are several parallels in the Emma/Red story to the Liz/Red story.  He seems to have up-ended Emma's life (reminds me of Carla/Naomi also).  He did not willingly let Emma go, he can't let Liz go, but for different reasons (we think).  

Separately - the whole witness protection storyline got me thinking - did Naomi/Jennifer get pulled and then put into witness protection because of something they saw/witnessed that put their lives in danger.  That to me was never fully explored but the reality is, that is the main reason why people are placed in protection in the first place - they witness something and then tell.  So who were they protected from - Red, or someone else?  Naomi to me always seemed terrified of Red.  when the marshall shows up in her kitchen, she drops the knife and says only "he is back isn't he", something like that.  But I digress....

Back to your comments, its possible that Red is Will's father.  we don't know but its definitely a possibility.  Emma did imply, by saying that her marriage was destroyed, that she and Red could have had an affair.  Her marriage could also have been destroyed by her obsession with Red, but it sounded to me like it bordered on the obsession/romantic - whether or not it was reciprocated - she was starstruck and went through a "honeymoon" phase at least......this show has a lot of people being driven by obsession!!!   haha

anyway that's enough for now, LOL.  need to re-watch of course!!

edited to add  on "letting Emma go", is it possible he is learning from Kaplan's words about Liz....and letting someone out before they truly turn on him (in this case though, maybe cause him significant more damage).  just a thought.  

Last edited by lara1 (1/20/2017 1:29 pm)

Don't forget that James Spader will be on The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon tonight. Seems odd that he is on two eeeks after the winter return. And if he was promoting Redemption it would be Ryan Eggold, I would think. Hmmmm. I am really hoping that he is going to say they've been renewed.  (ermm)

Hi Tuxie400.  I didn't notice a red hat or did I read your meaning the wrong way?
I think Red wore a black suit after Liz "died" -  and in the Cape May episode maybe?

lara1 - I meant black hat. Red's worn black for the last two episodes, and he looks like he's in mourning. I'm sure he's probably worn black before, but I couldn't remember when.

lara1 wrote:

hmmm, that clip from the next episode they showed on Fallon was a bit ominous.....not sure what to make of it.  Red worried?  losing his grip? foretelling of something not very good...?

I started rambling on the other thread about this....lol

I agree. Maybe all this is just in case they don't renew the new season, OR tptb trying to throw us off.
 Another thought lara1 is if Red had a breakdown, who would really prove to be his friends?


 

lara1, this is from the other thread,

lara1 wrote:

Eastcoast wrote:

I was thinking that he looked like he was going to have a breakdown after Liz left finding out about Kaplan.
He really does take a beating sometimes, but I don't think he gave enough thought to what this would do to Liz. The guilt it would make her feel.

Eastcoast - I agree.  I think at the time he was so blinded by rage and tunnel vision, all he could do was think of getting Agnes back and the danger he felt Kaplan had put her in, and avenging Kirk in some way......I don't think he was thinking things out strategically on any level, he was reacting......

This would remind me of the time him and Berlin were talking about being led by emotions.