Tuxie400 wrote:

LDJones wrote:

Overall, I liked the episode, but it didn't have to be the Blacklist. Could have been any crime drama except for Dembe's visit to Liz at the last second.
A few random observations:
1. The cleaners can only work in DC (NYC) because of their day jobs. I think Mr. Kaplan and her team went everywhere.

LDJones - I agree that this plotline was not your usual blacklist, but I enjoyed it anyhow. For me, it's the best case the task force has worked on this season - maybe longer. Good point about the cleaners! Red will be on the lookout for another full-time cleaner who can travel. It is hard to replace Kaplan, and she did so much more for Red than the usual cleaner's job description.
 

Mr. Kaplan was quite the operator but Red obviously has great distaste for those he cannot trust. The thought of the show-runners preparing a spin-off in order to accelerate Red's demise is a bit shocking as Spader virtually carried a newbie cast for the better part of 3 seasons. But if they aren't getting desired ratings they may be forced to kill off their lead character and proceed with all their hopes placed on a sequel. HOPE I'M WRONG!
This would be almost as stupid as CBS cancelling Person of Interest when it was still a relatively monster hit - but also intelligent viewing! CBS got their comeuppance as most of their current dramas don't stand up to Person of Interest in terms of either ratings or show quality. (ie. MacGyber, Pure Genius, Conviction w/ Hayley Atwell, etc.) Even Elementary looks to be on last legs
 

lara1 wrote:

Hi BBB - the ratings have got a lot of attention today with various articles.  At this snapshot in time (and it is just a snapshot) things look marginal but I think could change.  But what perhaps can't be understood with further clarity is how much of that is due to the day and time slot, which I understand is one of the most difficult for any show, and that the DVR and other day +3 ratings remain strong - meaning people aren't watching live but are watching soon thereafter.  how much is due to the time slot I think may be hard to say.  Well I sure do hope this goes to season 5 as there is so much to unwind, and I think that would be good for all involved (doesn't 5 equal syndication?).  

I think we may get a better idea where things are heading just before the spring hiatus comes - we have a couple more episodes and I understand that the last one before the spring hiatus in mid Feb is a double episode.  That certainly sounds intense and I look forward to it no matter what...

Of course if the collective wills and determination of this group are taken into account, the show would probably run for 10 seasons!  LOL. 

Well, 6 or 7 anyways! lol

I hope that we will get a Season 5.  I would be happy with that and with enough time to plot a comprehensive end game.  Of course I'd like it to go on further but equally most shows don't last beyond that.   There is a lot of buzz at the moment because it sounds like the last two episodes have fallen just below a number of measurement thresholds, but I don't think by much, thankfully.  I think we will have a better idea by the time the show gets to its spring hiatus.  And hopefully the ratings will get a bounce and those who were not aware it had come back now know about it.  

I re-watched the episode today and it struck me how similar in feel and characters it is to Season 1.  I think someone else mentioned that - maybe it was Tuxie400.  The opening scene with Tom and Liz felt to me like those first couple of episodes in Season 1 when they were just a happy young couple and before we truly knew that Tom was spy man and Liz his target.  Included in this were the passports.   Does anyone know if those were the original passports Tom had hidden in the floor?  At one point in Season 2, if I remember correctly, Liz gave those back to Tom so he could get away from the Germans who were after him.  I don't now remember whether those were the ones he burned - I thought the ones he burned were other passports that he had to get rid of for some reason (maybe because the Major knew about those and the Major was after him also?).  ugh I just don't remember on that.  Well, I guess original passports or no, I felt like those scenes were kind of re-setting the series back to those early days.  It does make me think whether it will turn out that Tom has been on another "mission" all this time.  I think it unlikely but that would be a wild twist.

We also had a child who was abducted, as in the pilot, with Liz holding her when she is saved.  there are probably other things if I sit down and really think about it.

I also thought Red's behavior actually a bit like that in Season 1 also.  More menacing, really just focused on the revenge story at hand.  We haven't really seen this Red in a while, again it was a Season 1 feel to me.  Turning foes against each other which he has also done in the past - kind of a reverse double jump!  He also completely evaded Liz's questions and kept talking, something that he really hasn't done to that extent in quite a while, I don't think.

Two quick casual observations:

Red says to Liz at the end that she has had a "pyrrhic" victory...hmmm

Red used the phrase, "Imposter to the throne", something like that.  Tuxie400 - there is that royalty thing again! - and combined with an imposter reference.  hmmm

I really liked the episode.  I thought it was very clever how they kept us guessing tor a bit, how it pulled together all the threads about the girl, how she was getting the info, what it was actually about and who was pulling those strings.  I loved the Rear Window moments in the girl's apartment, the Aram touches and so much more.

You know i had another thought about Red. I wonder if he is really baiting/testing Dembe as some have suggested. He really did put a sharp point on his Initial discussions with Iniko within earshot of Dembe - he spoke  loudly and clearly  And i think he kind of went over the top with inspecting the apartment. First crawling on hands and knees with his blue light flashlight when renting the apartment.  Then kind of over- waxing lyrical about the new cleaners after they cleaned up, again inspecting with his blue light   flashlight. Now,  i kind of think he already knew the cleaners were good because he had been there before and he said as much to Iniko in the apt.  To me it was kind of exaggerated to then crawl under furniture with his blue light flashlight.

Then he kept saying several times after they cleaned up, how great the cleaners were, making a point of it in full earshot of Dembe and in response to what  Dembe said to the cleaners. It was, on he surface, another way of disrespecting kate -  so either Red is being cavalier and unfeeling - both of Kate and of Dembe - or he is baiting Dembe -whether or not Red knows that Kate is alive. Or, he's just decided to move on and get on with business in his new support world. Anyone have any thoughts?  I kind of think he was either baiting Dembe or its the latter, as he does say to Dembe at the end of that scene that "Kate is irreplaceable".  so maybe not entirely unfeeling....

If Red was baiting Dembe for a response, it worked because Dembe then went to Liz, albeit with the best intentions  but i dont think that Red wanted Liz to find out about Kate, at least not in that way.

Last edited by lara1 (1/16/2017 8:56 am)

lara1 #90 -  Even if Red had been in the apartment before he leased it, he probably didn't have his blue light blood-seeker with him. He was interested in seeing just how well the cleaners had cleaned, and he wanted to know exactly what had happened there. I think he was researching well, before he hired the cleaners. Since Red didn't know the identity of the cleaners, he had to set up Geoffrey to be killed so Iniko would call them. Iniko's murder was just icing on the cake. 

I don't think Red was baiting Dembe. He does what he always does - tells personal stories to his victims. The difference was this one was personal.to Dembe. It pushed all his buttons. Red's words - even more than his bullets - hurt Dembe. I think Red was just trying to move on, and having a cleaner is a necessity in his world.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (1/16/2017 10:37 am)

I had a weird thought last night. What if the girl in this episode is a parallel for Liz. I imagine Katarina taking little Masha on visits with several men she honeytrapped and perhaps on visits to her handlers and other spies. Liz may have overheard plans for assassinations and operations similar to those that the special needs girl did here. Remember what Red warned her about when he showed her the map of doom?

Tuxie400 and fangirl - interesting thoughts.

Tuxie400 #92, 91 - what you say makes sense.  Red on the floor with his blue light flashlight was maybe just Red being Red.  I do think he is saying those things pointedly to Dembe though - if only to signal that they need to move on.  Not sure.  I agree Red acted manic and that last scene in the apartment reminded me a bit about the campfire sing along in The Vehm - Red acting even a bit unbalanced - I kept thinking all he needs is a guitar now and they'll be singing!  LOL

I tend to think that while there is a possibility that Red is baiting Dembe, I'm more inclined to think that he is not, and this is setting up the next story arc.  I think we will have a better idea of this when we see this week's episode.  

 I like the quote you included in #95.  Red while doing everything possible for Liz, was betrayed and now not yet allowed back into her life.  At the same time, I think there is some character development - instead of buying a sofa, letting himself into the apartment and be sitting on the sofa when Liz arrives home, he is asking if he can visit, ceding control to Liz.  Perhaps he realizes that is the only way to gain her trust and that Kaplan was right, to try to control her will just chase her away.  Well that will be shattered by Liz learning about Kaplan, even if she does not confront Red about it.

But if I were Liz, I would sure be wondering why Red does what he does for her , is so driven, and why he doesn't care about anyone else.  

Now this is an interesting idea. I had been thinking it would be Kate, if anyone. If he was forced into a situation where this became the only way out, would he do it? As the author said, he thought about it because of The Forecaster episode. So that's why I am putting it here. Then again I also wonder if Red is setting this up himself. If he ever wanted to "retire", this is probably his only real option.

http://theinscribermag.com/the-blacklist-will-dembe-be-the-one-to-kill-raymond-red-reddington/

Honey West wrote:

Now this is an interesting idea. I had been thinking it would be Kate, if anyone. If he was forced into a situation where this became the only way out, would he do it? As the author said, he thought about it because of The Forecaster episode. So that's why I am putting it here. Then again I also wonder if Red is setting this up himself. If he ever wanted to "retire", this is probably his only real option.

http://theinscribermag.com/the-blacklist-will-dembe-be-the-one-to-kill-raymond-red-reddington/

Interesting thoughts, Honey West.  I do wonder though whether Dembe's anger towards Red is anger with himself that he is projecting onto Red.  Dembe actually told Kaplan that he was not on her side and to me he clearly did not approve of what she did - and he witnessed first hand how it destroyed Red and nearly drove him to suicide.  I think he is angry with himself for not speaking up or trying to reason with Red about Kate beforehand  try to make him see a different way.  They did travel around for a long time together trying to find Agnes before Red carried out his plans with Kate.  And Kate knew full well what was going to happen.  So in a way Dembe iis speaking out too late, and he knows it.

Having Dembe kill Red is an interesting idea but that would be tough.  I think he basically sees Red as more than a close friend, as a father figure even.  He takes a huge risk with going to Liz because he cares about Red and wants to try to save him from himself before its too late - not really to avenge Kate.  Apart from Liz/Agnes I think Red loves Dembe more than anyone else in the world - his affection for him has been demonstrated in the series several times.  So it would kind of be like patricide if that was the way the plot went .  We will have to see.....

I do think though that Red will die at series' end.  How or why I really have no idea.  It may be something that comes out of the blue, the ultimate twist in the plot.  But who knows, really.