The Blacklist Refugees » Evidence for the Imposter Theory

lara1 · 5/13/2017 3:36 pm

that's interesting Honey West. I guess prints can change over time (i.e. become less distinct)

The L Scan was what appeared to be the technology used for Red's left hand prints on the 1989 report. I was trying to figure out when that technology was first used but haven't found it yet, although that exact company that made the equipment used for the print apparently didn't exist until around 2007. There could have been a predecessor company, though, I suppose.

Gee we certainly do learn a lot investigating TBL clues, don't we? LOL

Last edited by lara1 (5/13/2017 3:37 pm)

Laocoon · 5/15/2017 10:11 pm

The discrepancies in the fingerprint technologies add to the mystery. I used to work in finance, so I'm on record, too.

It is likely that the DOJ and the FBI, as well as local PDs, etc., run their own separate databases. It's hard to integrate and manage very large computer systems, especially given how slowly the government contracts and makes systems changes and the silos of large organizations. This doesn't bother me as it relates to the story.

What does bother me is the sum of the clues leading to government involvement, seemingly at the highest levels, in the creation of the legend of Raymond Reddington. "Everything about me is a lie." But these lies seem to be at high levels - Fowler, Hitchens, Panabaker, Cooper (and the formation of the task force), Ressler (obviously read in at a high level, protects Liz, may have let Reddington go "five years" before the task force). These people know a lot more than even the task force staff.

What if this whole thing is a black op sanctioned and run at the highest levels of the U.S. government? Whether the Reddington we know is an impostor or not (I tend to think he is), the legend created of him being such a horrible criminal is the life he has to live since he emerged in 1994 as a bad guy. This takes him beyond being an informant and into the realm of the spy (non-official cover) who came in from the cold for some reason.

When Diane Fowler was so reluctantly working on the immunity agreement in season 1, she mentioned with dread the inevitability of testifying before the Senate if this gets out. I've wondered why the immunity deal by itself was so troubling (given all the busted Blacklisters), but if the whole black op were to be exposed as a result, then that would raise the stakes for Diane's heartburn over this.

I've mentioned before that Red seems to have amazing access to resources on a very large scale and with immediacy. I realize that his fortune and reciprocal obligations are impressive, but he can mobilize resources more than one might expect of a billionaire. This kind of scale implies government, military and similar connections.

We don't know everything that he does. He could be running a big spy network as well, under the guise of his front companies.

The creation of the task force and his surrender could be a consequence of his operation being threatened, not just his interest but perhaps his cover and, ergo, the whole operation.

This doesn't explain what's behind protecting Liz and other questions, but for me it draws a few threads into a more cogent picture.

I'll be willing to admit how wrong I was when the truth is revealed.

lara1 · 5/15/2017 10:56 pm

Hi Laocoon, nice to hear from you! I enjoyed reading the ideas in your post.

Interesting thoughts. I share many of them that you have set out.

I am inclined to think that Red is either an imposter, or his identity is manufactured, i.e. he's inhabiting the persona of someone who never existed (which lines up with some of the parallels to films, books etc that the series may be pointing to). I don't think we can trust an FBI Reddington file that may have been compiled and created by the government in the first place.

Well somewhere, sometime, we will find out whether this is the case.

Honey West · 5/16/2017 12:22 am

I tend to agree, laocoon. In fact Red even said as much this season, that he set out to become the criminal that "they" said he already was. Although I was thinking he might mean the Cabal. Then again, the Cabal being sort of a shadow government pulling all the strings would probably mean that they and the government are really one and the same thing. We used to ask, on the old board, whether Red and the Cabal were not really just two sides of the same coin.
Then we also had Red telling Tom that he had "almost unlimited resources" at his disposal, and yes, that sounds like something a government would have, not your average master criminal, no matter how good he was at his job. and Red offering to basically give Yabari his own country.

lara1 · 5/16/2017 9:10 am

Hi Honey West. Very good point about Yabari! I'd forgotten about that. (Good time for a series re-watch! )

Red always seems to have an ace up his sleeve, extraordinary options as contingency to only be used for extraordinary situations where absolutely needed for survival.

More than even a criminal businessman would have.

lara1 · 5/16/2017 10:01 am

There's an interesting thread on this topic thats been opened in Reddit. I dont look at Reddit very often but occasionally if someone opens a topic of interestt, like this one, I"ll scroll through.

I dont agree with everything on that thread, but its an interesting read. It also reminded me of a comment that Red said to Liz back in season 1 or 2 - that if Liz knew her father's identity, it would put her in danger And he said something like, " and me". So - put his "cover" or "identity" at risk?

It is also one explanation of why Kate's memories dont add up - which had occured to me as a possibility as well - in her recollections, when she speaks of Red, she is speaking of the "real" Red whereas in current times, she 's speaking of imposter Red. It doesnt explain everything though ( including missing scars on Liz and on Kate) so it may very well be a memory thing, too, of which we are getting a lot of hints. Or maybe the two are meshed in some way, in versions of memories.

Last edited by lara1 (5/16/2017 10:03 am)

Tatiana · 5/16/2017 10:13 am

Hi Lara - where in Reddit is that discussion. I don't quite understand, so if I look at it I might get a better idea what you're talking about. Thanks! :-)

lara1 · 5/16/2017 1:11 pm

Hi Tatiana. Sure I will get that when I'm back home. Or you could try googling Reddit Blacklist. The page should come up and the imposter thread is one of the first few threads.

Tatiana · 5/16/2017 2:01 pm

Found it. Thanks!

I enjoyed the comment, "wouldn't it be a great twist if one of the bodies at the ice rink was idenfified as Raymond Reddington?"

Well, they post a compelling case for the 'imposter'. More to think about!

Tatiana · 5/16/2017 2:46 pm

This is the best timeline and explanation I have seen for the Imposter theory. It even explains why some people knew who Raymond was from before he disappeared.

What I still cannot figure out is what happened to him, what tragic, tramatic expierience did he have, the story of how he came home on Christmas Eve and there was blood everywhere.

and where did LIz live?

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheBlackList/comments/6bh239/spoilers_the_impostor_theory/

lara1 · 5/16/2017 6:12 pm

Hi Tatiana, glad that you found it! I could not work out how to paste it in from my phone! LOL
I was half joking the other week when I said the body in the dark suit was the real Reddington- well good to hear that has occurred to someone else also - somehow I doubt it though - but there may be an interesting "find" among those remaining 5 unidentified bodies (or should I say unconfirmed - didn't Kaplan tag them all with names? maybe I only thought that up! ). LOL

"where did Liz live?"

If Liz is Masha, (or vice vers) heh heh. One of my thoughts - that's why "Liz" in the Requiem fire flashback doesn't have a scar - maybe there were two girls in fire house, one was burned (Liz), one wasn't (Masha). the real Masha may still be out there somewhere. And may be what Kirk left to find. Just a thought. .

Last edited by lara1 (5/16/2017 6:13 pm)

Eastcoast · 5/17/2017 12:41 am

lara1, im glad you said that because I was thinking the same thing. Kaplan named them all and how they died. Maybe they just have to do it themselves to be official. ( my excuse for the writers)
Sometimes I dont think they look at their own show

Last edited by Eastcoast (5/17/2017 12:41 am)

Eastcoast · 5/17/2017 12:57 am

My problem with Red being an impostor since the fire night and taking over the identity of the real Red is that real Red was still in play until December after the fire.
He was still working for the Navy for at least another 10 months or so afterward.
I am tired, Am I missing something?

lara1 · 5/17/2017 11:48 am

HI Eastcoast - that is a good point. But we don't actually see any activity for Red in the timeline between the fire and when Red disappeared in "Christmas 1990", which is an FBI story. (If we can believe that.)

There doesn't seem to be any activity in Requiem either although that kind of cuts off at the point where KR calls Kate from Cape May and then disappears. Red then resurfaces as a criminal, I would guess around 1994-5 (in Kate's memory).

So I agree the theory is not foolproof. Its also possible that our Red is the real Red and someone else did a bunch of bad stuff in his name - possibly with some kind of agency plan. And his change in appearance is due to surgery on fire scars. But I haven't looked into that closely, so I don't really know how that would work - I just mention it as another theory that I have seen out there. all of the possibilities sometimes makes my head hurt ! LOL

Honey West · 5/17/2017 3:24 pm

Between the fire and his disappearance, or at least Katarina's disappearance, Red had to be recuperating from his injuries. Those scars on his back came from something pretty serious. He could have gone back home, been put on light (desk) duty and then whatever happened to precipitate his disappearance a few weeks or months later, happened. I still think he was framed or blackmailed by the Cabal and his old friend/mentor Alan Fitch. They branded him a traitor, likely using his Katarina fling, framed him as a criminal and forced him underground. Once his ruination was complete, losing his family, job, position, his future, he set out to become in truth what they said he was in fiction. At least that's what theyve pointed us toward with some of what Red has been saying lately. I think, though, that his real rise to criminal power happened after he came to whatever agreement he made with Fitch. Maybe that was part of his deal, that Fitch would provide support or at least provide the means by which Red would have the support to accomplish that. Or simply stay out of Red's way. But, we have noted that Red has these vast resources to draw on, like something only a government or the Cabal could provide. So maybe the becoming a criminal in real life thing was a cover for whatever his real agreement was with Fitch. Fitch being a deputy director of national security would tend to make me lean in that direction.

Anyway, just some more food for thought. Like we don't have enough!

Patter · 5/17/2017 3:25 pm

lara1 wrote:
HI Eastcoast - that is a good point. But we don't actually see any activity for Red in the timeline between the fire and when Red disappeared in "Christmas 1990", which is an FBI story. (If we can believe that.)

There doesn't seem to be any activity in Requiem either although that kind of cuts off at the point where KR calls Kate from Cape May and then disappears. Red then resurfaces as a criminal, I would guess around 1994-5 (in Kate's memory).

So I agree the theory is not foolproof. Its also possible that our Red is the real Red and someone else did a bunch of bad stuff in his name - possibly with some kind of agency plan. And his change in appearance is due to surgery on fire scars. But I haven't looked into that closely, so I don't really know how that would work - I just mention it as another theory that I have seen out there. all of the possibilities sometimes makes my head hurt ! LOL

"And his change in appearance is due to surgery on fire scars." This stuck out to me. I can't remember the name of the episode, but didn't we see Red's back and it had scars on it? When was that?! Can a plastic surgeon smoothout or transplant skin with scarring like that? My cousin was burned very badly on his arm when he was little and the scar still looks the same, just appears slightly smaller as he's grown into a teen.

Tatiana · 5/17/2017 4:22 pm

Patter wrote:
"And his change in appearance is due to surgery on fire scars." This stuck out to me. I can't remember the name of the episode, but didn't we see Red's back and it had scars on it? When was that?! Can a plastic surgeon smoothout or transplant skin with scarring like that? My cousin was burned very badly on his arm when he was little and the scar still looks the same, just appears slightly smaller as he's grown into a teen.

When they showed the episode of his burn scars on his back and shoulder, I was on a discussion board with some folks who were in the medical field and had a lot of knowledge on this topic. They said the scars were portrayed to be burn scars. To my knowledge those scars cannot be made to look like fresh skin because of the damage. Skin grafting can cause some improvement, but there are usually clear indications of damage, usually the skin does not regain it's suppleness and looks very tight. Note, I"m not a doctor and I do not even play one on tv.

Eastcoast · 5/17/2017 5:43 pm

Hello Patter,

It was in Berlin.
I know. That is the really big question!

Someone had mentioned once a while back that maybe he was burned another time? They were talking about the guy in Cuba that is burned too.

I had written something about that subject but I cant find it.

I had said it was possible he was burned and was under treatment and the Navy knew of it.
If Naomi was there and or in on it, she could have said the house caught on fire?
But odd there was never any mention of it. They could have said, we know its him because his back is scarred.
Unless, they replaced him with a Russian Doppelganger at that time.
Naomi could have been the dark haired woman we saw Liz with in Braxton.

lara1,

I feel he was in good standing/highly respected and had to be active because of what was said in the pilot.
"This highly respected officer up and disappears". So he in good standing by their word until at least in Dec. 1990.

So......, My other thought on this for TPTB, is that KR said they uncovered her affair with Raymond.
So that would mean he would be in trouble too unless they knew it and she was his assignment too.

lara1 · 5/17/2017 7:27 pm

hi Eastcoast - in some versions of the imposter theory (there are a few LOL!), It wasn't "our" Red who had the affair with KR, it was the real Reddington. "our" Red was active in the spying field too so whether he is speaking for himself or for the real Red, they were each an "assignment".

I always go back to "everything about me is a lie". Are we meant to take that literally, or is it just meant to indicate that some things are not what they seem?

I don't know the answer, but lately some of what "our" Red has been saying (I think Honey West may have noted it), seems to at least support the idea that his current identity is an alias of some sort. Whether or not the "real" Red died in the fire, "our" Red could still be an alias of some sort.

I hope that makes sense, LOL. The more you think about it the more confusing it can become!

lara1 · 5/17/2017 7:30 pm

Patter, Tatiana - interesting thoughts on the burn scars. It's good to know that the type of scarring had been discussed in the group.

On a related note, sort of the converse, that is why I don't think Liz's "burn scar" is a burn. It looks to me more like a cut. Which is why I was intrigued when someone recently mentioned that they thought Liz had something buried under the scar (shades of the courier). Tatiana, I think that was you - interesting idea.

Last edited by lara1 (5/17/2017 7:31 pm)