The Blacklist Refugees » Evidence for the Imposter Theory

Honey West · 3/30/2017 8:52 pm

I tend to agree with you, eastcoast. Too many people know him as Raymond Reddington. I think if he was an imposter it would have to have been a switch made before he met any of them. That's not saying that what he is isn't true. But I think he is who he is. When you get into what it's all up for grabs.
As for the plastic surgery, when he talked to Dr. Andrew Dice Clay I always thought it was probably some work done after the fire. Red has always moved a bit oddly. When he turns to look at something behind, he usually sort of turns his whole upper body, not just his head. Plus he tends to lean to one side or the other when he's standing still, but that could just be a mannerism. I've always thought he's a little stiff. So maybe Dr. Maltz helped him with that to get him some better mobility. Or not.

lara1 · 3/30/2017 10:05 pm

I do think Red had plastic surgery. I don't think Sam or the admiral fully recognized him until he started speaking. Even Dom seemed to stare at him for a few moments before recognizing him and we don't know how long its been since Dom and Red saw each other in person.

I think that Red could only be an imposter or have a manufactured identity unless it was set up from the beginning. For example if he was a Russian sleeper spy (so presumably folks like Dom, Scottie, Naomi and even Same perhaps would know about him and not break character); or an identity manufactured by the government early on (everything about me is a lie - including his identity? and the 1990 Christmas story?)

Last edited by lara1 (3/30/2017 10:06 pm)

lara1 · 3/30/2017 10:23 pm

Eastcoast - I've gone over the fire scenes and dialog more times than I care to admit! I've also frozen the screen in several places to see what appears in the "flashes" of light and in the closet.

I still can't make sense of it as we are missing pieces. I think what I am sure of is that a man and woman are fighting over the fulcrum and over Liz; we assume they are Liz's parents but we can't necessarily confirm who those parents are; two people are fighting at a window and one is shot (its two men in one memory; a man and a woman in another; its unclear whether the woman or man has the gun (ie is the man trying to get the gun out of the woman's hand)); someone is hurt and on the floor or on the ground

I am fairly certain that there were two girls in the closet and two girls in the house. There are scenes when young Liz, or who we think is young Liz, has slightly longer hair; two different nightgowns; there are two rabbits etc. Whether or not Liz is remembering the other girls' memories is open to debate.

Someone was shot presumably by Liz. Not sure if Kirk was there or not. It seemed to me he thought that Red had "taken" Liz and both liz and Katarina were gone when he came home one day. It also seemed like he didn't know where they had gone. So I'm not sure he knew where they were. But nothing is certain.

Well I don't think I have helped very much!

Last edited by lara1 (3/30/2017 10:24 pm)

lara1 · 4/04/2017 2:59 pm

Tuxie400 - I can't remember where the Red as Katarina discussions are, but something struck me in Cape May.

When the local police officer stops by to check on the house (inn) he walks into the kitchen and sees the other place setting, comments on another person etc and Red goes into his explanation about his wife not feeling well etc. (which I always thought was weird in and of itself)

After the police officer leaves, "Katarina" says to Red, "He knows.". And Red says something to her like, I don't think so. He would have had to have been very good at hiding it. Time will tell.

And I've never understood what Katarina's comment referred to.

So, what if that was the Katarina in Red speaking to outward Red about their identity being one and the same?

It was just curious to me how that comment came right after the scene with the empty place setting.

Not sure what else it would refer to, unless its just that they are sort of camping out there illegally - trespassing.

just wondering if you have given that some thought.

Tuxie400 · 4/04/2017 6:56 pm

lara1 - I think most of the Red as Katarina discussions came in the Dr. Adrian Shaw Conclusion discussion and in the thread on the winter hiatus. I just took the "He knows" comment to be about them having broken into the inn and being there illegally. But it might be about their identity. There are many, many things in the Cape May episode that would support the mommy theory. The Hobson's choice could refer to Katarina "killing herself" by becoming Red. When Red says he was there a long time ago, but he was a different person, I thought that would work for Red as Katarina. The dialog that was the most revealing for me was:
Red: I don't know your name.
Woman: Don't be ridiculous, Raymond. (As in My name IS Raymond).
And most especially the scene where their two faces look like just one. See below.

When I first saw Cape May, I thought this resembled a famous painting. I just stumbled on it yesterday. It's by a Russian born artist, Marc Chagall.

The 1943 painting features Chagall and his beloved wife Bella in the colors of the French flag. They reluctantly had to flee Nazi occupied Paris and move to the U.S. where she died one year later. The title of the painting in English is "Between Darkness and Light." My husband commented about the title, "Isn't that The Blacklist's parking space?" The French title was "Hour Between Wolf and Dog," which refers to a French saying about the moments just after sunset when your vision becomes unclear and you can't tell if a dog is a wolf, or a friend is a foe. I thought that went along with The Blacklist too. Most of Chagall's paintings had the themes of love and identity.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (4/04/2017 10:50 pm)

lara1 · 4/04/2017 9:26 pm

Tuxie400 - that is really interesting

I agree there is a lot in Cape May that can point to the Mommy theory. in fact before the Lotte character was defined as Katarina (mysterious woman) a common thought was that she represented "Red's" subconscious and he was having the conversations with himself (the Lotte character). So the Mommy theory fits into that.

then there is that weird (to me) scene towards the end when Red is looking into the mirror over the fireplace mantel and talking to "Katarina", who is standing behind him, but he does not turn around to speak to her but rather keeps his back to her, but addresses her image in the mirror. Like the two images are of the same person, perhaps?

The way they work together and communicate almost seamlessly can also point to it. And at the end when he retraces his steps from the night before, saying "only me". interesting, eh?

That painting is fascinating to me, thanks for sharing it. It also reminds me of the opening montage to the series with Red's face which is actually there different images moving so quickly you can't catch it. And again the background of a flag, the text on which is from "the limits/extent of good and evil", very similar term to "darkness and light". really interesting!

Last edited by lara1 (4/04/2017 9:27 pm)

Eastcoast · 4/04/2017 11:31 pm

My thoughts on the mommy theory.

In all fairness to all the ideas that are thrown out here and there and everywhere I have given thought to the mommy theory but I run into a brick wall trying to make it work out.

Transgendering someone takes time.

There are so many differences in KR and Red in my opinion that I cant seam to make it work at all since I am familiar with a few people who have done this. I also know someone who added height and it took a lot of time and it was a lot of pain and therapy.

So even if I can get past all that, I have this big problem I cannot get past what so ever.
Having been a nurse, there are just some things you are not going to change.

So, when this first came up the very first thing that ran throught my head was...

'Even if the first Dr. who did surgery on Red when he got shot in Leonard Caul
had known Red, was loyal to him and knew of this, the fact remains that Dr. Nic was not his friend and did not know anything about his medical history but would have known after doing surgery on him.'

In my opinion Dr. Nic would have probably been in a bit of shock and told Liz right
after the surgery, he is a woman.
No way he would have been digging in his chest and not noticed the difference.

Not to mention he was close enough to see how his skull was shaped and his pelvis.

Tuxie400 · 4/05/2017 12:35 am

Eastcoast - You are far too realistic for me. Back in December, I was 60 percent on the Red is Katarina idea. It was one way that Elizabeth could be Red's daughter without his being her father. Now I'm down to about 20 percent on the mommy theory..But I'm not completely ruling it out. As for transgendering taking time, Red totally disappeared for four years and, according to Berlin, was pretty scarce for the next 20. Velov traced Katarina to Prague, which is a well-known Euopean center for transgender operations. As you say, I'm sure his *77 medical personnel would have been clued in on a possible sex change. But I don't know that Dr. Nik would have told Liz. I imagine Kaplan would have made him sign a nondisclosure agreement before handing over that briefcase full of cash. I guess for me it would be great storytelling for Katarina, to have the courage to do something like that out of love of her daughter..I would be happy with it. The Blacklist is a fictional show. and that ending would make a lot more sense to me than Katarina's memories being transplanted to Red. Please explain to me how that is medically possible. Also the transgender idea makes more sense than the ending of Lost - another show I watched obsessively for years without ever knowing what it was really about.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (4/05/2017 12:40 am)

lara1 · 4/05/2017 10:38 am

Eastcoast - thanks for your comments. That was something that had crossed my mind - the surgery to repair Red's lung - and remove the bullet - but hadn't thought through - some basic anatomical differences.

Eastcoast and Tuxie400 - I don't discount the Mommy theory but not entirely convinced either. It has the same issues with it (thinking it through, one encounters a roadblock or more than one roadblock) that the other theories have - no one theory completely adds up. And I think that's because we are still missing a crucial piece of the puzzle. Which is fine. I do think though that as the series progresses, certain things will probably be ruled out.

Perhaps when Ep 4.17 airs we will find out more clues. In that episode, we will supposedly find out Kaplan's connection to Liz as well as Kaplan's connection to Red. That may give more info and/or enable us to rule out or nearly rule out some of the possibilities.

Very clever writing. And 4.17 is meant to be very well written so I can't wait. (well can't wait in any case, LOL )

Last edited by lara1 (4/05/2017 10:38 am)

lara1 · 4/05/2017 10:44 am

Tuxie400 - an NDA for Nik to have signed is certainly possible. And that could mean why he was then in so deep he was in fact tied to Red with no "escape" - maybe it wasn't just the money.

I still think the theory is a bit out there but I don't think it can be entirely ruled out either. If one goes back and re-watches episodes with the theory in mind there are things that then do line up. But equally things that don't - same as the other theories, IMO.

Tuxie400 · 4/05/2017 11:17 am

lara1 - I agree that no one theory adds up 100 percent. But I think that may be because we've made too many assumptions. I read an interesting theory the other day that points out there was never a wife mentioned in Red's Christmas Eve story to Madeline Pratt. That shocked me. I assumed the wife made the oyster stew. But Red never says the word wife, only daughter. We also assume ballerina girl and bubble girl were biological daughters, but that's never been confirmed either.

I hope the upcoming episodes will add some clarity. Supposedly a big piece of the puzzle is coming.

lara1 · 4/05/2017 12:06 pm

Tuxie400 # 91. That is an interesting point. Red never refers to a "wife" per se except when telling Liz who Naomi was. He never refers to her as his wife when talking to Berlin, either, though Berlin references Red's "wife" to him in a sneering way.

The term family is used several times. This passage from the Maddie story has always puzzled me though:

I was so upset to think that I'd ruined Christmas for them, being late, leaving the gifts in the car. ....the closer I got, the more I realized how funny the whole thing was, how much they'd love the story, daddy running out of gas, how every Christmas they'd get such joy from telling that story at my expense.

Who were "they"? Is it alluding to more than one daughter, or simply a collective term for the mother and daughter, i.e. his wife without saying that term. Never made clear. We assume its his wife and daughter because of the FBI version of the story....which may or may not be true.

All in good time....

Last edited by lara1 (4/05/2017 12:07 pm)

Tatiana · 4/05/2017 12:14 pm

If he were transgendered, he would need to take daily testosterone maintenance which is usually administered intramuscular or transdermal. Red's criminal lifestyle would mean he'd have easy access for treatment, but his lifestyle would also mean he's have problems with continuation of therapy... how many times was he put in a hole, almost died, etc.

Tuxie - I had not heard that Prague was considered a center for reassignment surgery. My understanding is that Thailand is still the global hub for trangendered.

I think a case can be made. And it would certainly solve a lot of problems.

With the MKULTRA et al references in TBL, I'm far more inclined to think Red is her 'father' in that he was part of the creation of sleeper agents, if we want to see Red as some kind of vile, dark, criminal. Or, he could be her 'father' in that he tried to save her from truly becoming a sleeper agent by extracting her from her environment.

I'm really leaning toward this especially because of 1) she is a chosen one, 2) Red's comment to 'Katarina" in Cape May... 'there aren't many of of' 'you begin to recognize us' (I don't remember exact wording).

But, it's interesting to explore all possibilities.

Tatiana · 4/05/2017 12:20 pm

One thing on the transgender theory, just as you recounted, Lara, the Christmas Eve story he recounts to Madeline Pratt, he references himself as "Daddy".

There are assumptions here though. 1) was the blood everywhere story even true? 2) There certainly seems to have been a father-daughter relationship of some kind prior to fire night and his final disappearance which does imply gender prior..

lara1 · 4/05/2017 1:53 pm

Tatiana - I think the physical characteristics and practicality issues around it are what are the biggest issues.

lara1 · 4/05/2017 2:02 pm

Tatiana and Tuxie400 = bringing up the Maddie Christmas story again made me think of it in a slightly different light.

When I think about a lot of Red's stories, certainly the American based ones of his distant past, they all seem to have very specific historical cultural references. They are almost immediately evocative of a place and time in American history - detailed high school stories, the whole lawn mowing thing, baloney sandwiches, sunken living rooms, etc etc. - there always seems to be a level of detail that almost "proves" it happened when and where or that he was there.

Two thoughts - so are they finely rehearsed stories with cultural references - thinking about the Russian program to install sleeper agents and how they were, in some respects, more "American" than Americans - is that a clue Red was one, or similar agent?

I think part of the Maddie story is true. I also think the story was meant to give us a clue - and a specific cultural reference - with the oyster stew. That, I believe, is a very American Christmas tradition. Not Russian.. So - is it part of another possible "learned" story from Red, or is it telling us that we are looking at an American, and not Russian, Christmas. I think there are some theories out there that speak to the whole fire/disappearance timeline being explained by Russian orthodox Christmas rather than Western Christianity (i.e. Western European church) Christmas. I don't really buy into that theory for a couple of reasons, but anyway, that detail of the oyster stew is thrown in for a reason. Why not just - Christmas dinner on the stove, - no its specific, evocative, American.

anyway that's enough rambling for now! its really interesting how we can go back over old discussions and see new things, perspectives, - and its great to share them!

Last edited by lara1 (4/05/2017 2:05 pm)

Tatiana · 4/05/2017 5:06 pm

I keep going back to this and for the life of me, I cannot make heads or tails out of what Bokenkamp is really saying (TVGuide May 13, 2014):

Interviewer: Tom said that Liz's father is still alive, but Red insists he's dead. Is Red part of a cover up or does Red really think he's dead?
Bokenkamp: What I do not believe is that Red is lying to Liz. The things he's told her about her father he believes to be true and thus are true, but that doesn't necessarily mean those in the writers' room believe them to be true. It's safe to believe that what he told her on the steps was the truth so far as he knows.

Interviewer: Red is covered in burn scars, so clearly he was in that same fire that apparently claimed the life of Liz's father. Could he be related to her in some other way?
Bokenkamp: It's safe to say that he is connected to her past in some deeply emotional way...They both have an understanding of [the mythology between them], but don't really have the whole picture. Like Red says at the end of the finale, "You can choose this and confront it or you can hide from it." She's part of the story now and she really doesn't have much of a choice other than to go forward.

lara1 · 4/06/2017 1:27 pm

Tatiana - I took the first comment to mean that what Red told Liz about her father being dead, its what the truth is for Red. So its true as far as he knows; that doesn't mean though that it is true (i.e. something he doesn't know about, eg her father still being alive unbeknownst to Red)

For the second comment, I don't think JB really answered the question (IMO). But, the interesting part of that comment for me is that neither Liz or Red have the full picture. It takes me back to the comment to her at the end of 1.21 - before he is re-arrested - where Liz tells Red he has the answers she needs, and he replies that she has the answers he needs, so they are "stuck with each other".

Goes back to the ideas discussed here that Liz has the key to something, maybe the memory of something, that has been "overwritten" and replaced by fake memories, that Red needs. And why he kidnapped the doctor in The Longevity Initiative - he wanted to know if the science could unlock Liz's memories.

But to reveal what, that is the question! I have thought from time to time that Liz was there (unknown to the perpetrators) and witnessed what happened to his family and that in erasing her memories, those (of what happened to Red's family) were either inadvertently or purposely erased. And that is part of the reason why knowing her father would put her in danger - because he was involved or was not involved but was there? but knowing that would lead the perpetrators back to her as a witness. Hence the danger. But that is just speculation. LOL

Last edited by lara1 (4/06/2017 1:29 pm)

Honey West · 4/06/2017 3:54 pm

So maybe what it comes down to, is that Red doesn't really know that he is her father, if that turns out to be the truth. He seems to have gaps in what he himself knows about it. That really makes me wonder if Reds memories about some things have also been tampered with at some point. We are seeing that he is having trouble remembering what happened when he was poisoned. Maybe that is some sort of flaw with him, unless it has been done to him on purpose. More Manchurian Candidate-type spy stuff.

What I have been taking away from many of the comments by TPTB is that they keep talking about Red and saying "as far as he knows". And that's the "reality". Like when they said that it wasn't important whether Red lives or dies, it's what he is experiencing when "he thinks he is dying". So is someone or something controlling his experiences as he moves through his life? Maybe Red is not the chessmaster, but is one of the pieces. Maybe he is the experiment; to see if he can solve a problem.

lara1 · 4/06/2017 4:22 pm

Interesting thoughts, Honey West. I think we discussed this too - what if Red's own memories were tampered with? Had false memories implanted - so he could even think that he saw Liz's father die, or maybe the part about Liz's father surviving, being rescued, resuscitated, whatever, he has no memory of.

And maybe he knows that he and Liz are connected, deeply bonded, or whatever, but may not know why and part of his quest is to find out. Maybe. LOL