The Blacklist Refugees » The Blacklist Episode 4.4 "Gaia" Discussion

lara1 · 10/16/2016 9:09 am

DNA/Stem cells. I feel like some kind of major reveal is coming up, maybe more than if they'd done a DNA test earlier. As I understand it, Kirk's disease means his bone marrow is unable to produce enough blood cells. Tuxie400 - that is an interesting point about a special blood test needing to be done for stem cell donor matches. I also read that true DNA testing can only be done through bone marrow cells -or something related to them - I don't know if that is entirely accurate, but if someone - lets just say Red - had changed their DNA, the "new" DNA would be detected through "normal" "superficial" means, but the "old" DNA would still exist in the bone marrow - and only detected through those means. Not sure if that is entirely accurate, but I think these are interesting concepts possibly being woven in here. Then we have a DNA test (on who by whom we don't yet know) at this very moment in the story. hmmm

Tuxie400 #101- interesting parallels you picked up on Kaplan, Anslo and Skylar. I did not put that together.

Plaid shirts - back to my post #100 - i now also remembered that Halfback in Ep 3 also wore a red plaid shirt for nearly every scene he was in, and in that scene with Red where Red says, "burn the deal help an old friend" as the ceiling above them is bathed in red light. Even Skylar is wearing a plaid shirt - though its not red. That's a lot of plaid shirts in 2 episodes! Not sure that is a coincidence.....maybe building up to some reveal about fire night

Pianos - I should add to my post #100 that after a proliferation of black grand pianos seemingly almost everywhere in Season 3, not one yet so far! Instead we have a light colored upright piano in ep 1 and an organ coming up in ep 5- so what does the change mean, if anything? At least we had a phonograph in the opening scene. LOL

Mirrors and Reflections - Tuxie400 #101 - When I first saw that triplicate mirror/window thing when Kirk holds the baby toward the end, the first thing that came to mind was the "triangle;" symbol Liz has in the series opening montage that Colleen P I believe first pointed out. Then we have the journal - and possibly 3 men - Konstatin, Red and the "American" (if Red and the American are 2 different people) that either loved, or were loved by, Katarina. I don't know if that is all related, but that's what I thought of - I'm sure its subject to other views! LOL

Last edited by lara1 (10/16/2016 9:21 am)

lara1 · 10/16/2016 10:57 am

Kirk's Motives

So the last couple of days I have been thinking that Kirk has a motive other than the stem cell thing. I'm thinking its too obvious. More and more I think that there is a second shoe to drop. I could be off base, but here is what I've seen thus far:

Red has confirmed in Ep 3 that Kirk is after Liz/Agnes for his medical therapy. But, Red usually doesn't tell the whole story, often just what he thinks he needs to in the moment. And I'm finding it hard to believe that all of the actions Red has taken to "protect" Liz is to protect her from stem cell donations. (there is the DNA question but I'll park that for the moment to focus on Kirk's plans)

Its clear from the discussion Kirk has with his doctor that they have been trying to work out other medical options. Kirk tried to get his hands on the Rabowski virus. And can Kirk in fact get stem cell therapy some other way anyway?

Kirk privately does not seem to want to resort to a medical procedure with Agnes. Yet, he would not swap her for the Rabowski virus. I think he is just using Agnes to manipulate Liz, in my view.

Kirk has now risked making himself a wanted fugitive and risked what may be a large part of his fortune (assets freeze in the US) by kidnapping Liz and now Agnes. Maybe if he's dying he doesn't care.

Kirk tells Liz that he wants them to be a family. Yet he is very cruel to separate a virtual newborn from its mother to say nothing of the emotional toll on LIz. And Kirk is blackmailing Liz, saying she can only have Agnes if she cuts Red out of her life.

So I'm thinking this is part vengeance on Red - but for what we don't know yet. And I'm not buying that Kirk wants to be a family. I'm even starting to think that Kirk really knows Agnes is not a genetic match - if she isn't - whether he knew this from the beginning or not I don't know. Its just an idea and may not even be the case, but interesting to ponder.

So I am back to the theory of Kirk wanting Liz to himself for another reason - and I come back to the warrior gene/lsomething special about Liz/ocked memories theory. For me the stem cells and family reunion do not make sense. And Red is never going to volunteer to Liz that she has all sorts of secrets locked up in her head or some other thing she doesn't know about. And remember in the Longevity Initiative when Red seemed to want to know if the doctor's research could unlock blocked memories from Liz? Did Red want to unblock those memories or was he fearful that they could at some point be unblocked, perhaps by someone else?

Anyone else have any thoughts on this? That's it for me - morning coffee time is over! LOL
Edited to Add: this doesn't explain why Kirk still wanted Agnes when Liz "died". Maybe just revenge or to keep options open even though he no longer had Liz. We hopefully will find out by Fall finale!

Last edited by lara1 (10/16/2016 11:28 am)

lake girl · 10/16/2016 11:59 am

lara1, I agree that Kirk's motive for wanting Liz and Agnes goes beyond "the stem cell" thing. There is more to this story than we've been told (typical Blacklist).
Perhaps it does have some kind of revenge against Reddington slant. Those two hate each other! Something horrible went down between them, beyond Red having an affair with Katarina. One of the few ways to truly hurt Red would be through Lizzy and Agnes.
We don't know much about Tom's background. We suspect Liz has the warrior gene. Perhaps Tom does, too. A child born of two warrior gene parents could be a powerful tool. Could Kirk be involved with the Cabal? Could they have future plans for Agnes? I remember Red saying something about some master plan of theirs. Was that season 1 or 2? Could this be one of the reasons Red didn't want Liz and Tom to be together?
Liz being Russian royalty has been suggested in the past. Perhaps Kirk is working with someone in Russia who wants to bring back Russia's greatness through bringing back the royal family. Agnes might be their last chance.
As for locked memories, I don't think Red wanted to unlock them. And it wouldn't surprise me if there were more memories than just fire night locked away.
I wonder if we are really going to find out next week, once and for all, without a shadow of a doubt, who Liz's bio dad is.......

Tuxie400 · 10/16/2016 12:57 pm

lara1 and lake girl - I think revenge against Red is definitely part of Kirk's motive. However else Liz is special might be part of it too.

One Paul · 10/16/2016 1:43 pm

lara #100
Yes, I see and agree, on Mountain Man (he needs a catchier name....) that Red didn't know he was there or set that up. But that certainly could be that he ends up on the List at some point. Or maybe, as it has been opined, that Mr. Kaplan ends up on Redemption.

That is a good point about Kirk's doctor not being sure if Agnes was a match. There is something funky going on here, like some other thing than that Kirk knows he is Liz's father. And yeah, I agree that whatever his game is has quite an awful lot to do with Red as well. I feel like we are missing something.

I also noticed the repeat us the "we're getting close" by Red. I guess is what's good is he was right that time.

And, I also noticed about the similarity to the Cape May house. I though for a moment that was where they were.

I also had a brief notice about Skyler's mom asking Red if he has a child with special needs. Of course, he didn't answer, but I wonder why he just didn't say no.

One Paul · 10/16/2016 1:48 pm

Tuxie400
Interesting idea that Odette could be Kirk's daughter. That would make some sense. Swan Lake and all, that has to be some sort of reference.

Tuxie400 · 10/16/2016 2:45 pm

One Paul - Good to see you posting again! I'm very curious about Odette, if her name is really Odette. It's listed that way in IMBD, but there have been hacks there before. Remember Sasha Rotova?

lara1 · 10/16/2016 4:32 pm

lake girl wrote:
lara1, I agree that Kirk's motive for wanting Liz and Agnes goes beyond "the stem cell" thing. There is more to this story than we've been told (typical Blacklist).
Perhaps it does have some kind of revenge against Reddington slant. Those two hate each other! Something horrible went down between them, beyond Red having an affair with Katarina. One of the few ways to truly hurt Red would be through Lizzy and Agnes.
We don't know much about Tom's background. We suspect Liz has the warrior gene. Perhaps Tom does, too. A child born of two warrior gene parents could be a powerful tool. Could Kirk be involved with the Cabal? Could they have future plans for Agnes? I remember Red saying something about some master plan of theirs. Was that season 1 or 2? Could this be one of the reasons Red didn't want Liz and Tom to be together?
.......

Lake Girl: that is a really intriguing idea you have about Agnes - that she might be part of some larger plan. And suppose that its nothing to do with Agnes' paternity? like many of us have been thinking. In this hypothetical scenario, Kirk isn't hesitant to use Agnes for stem cell reasons necessarily because she is an infant (or his granddaughter) but because she is part of a larger overall plan.

I also think back to Red's comment to Kirk in ep 1 through the bulletproof mirror, re Liz" "She was never yours to raise." Some of us wondered about that because if Liz was in danger due to perhaps Kirk finding out that she was not really his daughter, wouldn't that put Liz in danger? And Red is concerned for Liz, right? So why did he say that to Kirk? Maybe its nothing to do with biological paternity.

Maybe Liz was never his to raise for other reasons - part of a plan perhaps that we do not know about yet. A royalty link too, maybe. That's a fascinating possible link, and might explain some of the more puzzling aspects of what is going on. Still, any theory can be shot down, LOL! But I like this one.

lake girl · 10/16/2016 4:52 pm

I'm sure there are many puzzles pieces that we don't have yet! As for the royality theory, I can't take credit for that. I don't remember who first thought of it. It's just one of the theories percolating in the back of my mind.

Trelliswires · 10/16/2016 6:14 pm

I continue to think that items in Dom's home point toward a royalty ownership or aspiration for Katarina's family. Kirk says he needs stem cells but that is not what he wants. At this point, he appears to be blackmailing Liz with a captive Agnes, and Liz is still the target for Kirk's grand design.

My post from Season 3 - "The Artax Network" :
#96 Trelliswires said...My first impression of the framed print behind the piano was of an ornamental fencing helmet with a fine, dense screen face shield. However, the black area represents the space for a facial protective panel that is missing (see Gizmodo photos). Many thanks to Tabasko and Honey West to answer my question.

There is a beautiful collection of photos of many ceremonial helmets on the Gizmodo URL that I have included with this post. Just scroll down at that site.
___________________________________________________________________________________
From the "Art of Power" summary for these magnificent metal sculptures, I now have more questions.

Why would Dom select this print - or did an ancient relative acquire this print?

Does Dom or Katerina's mother represent offspring of a feudal or ancient important family? Are we looking at remnants of a Russian "royal" family such as the Romanovs?

What is Dom's surname? What is the surname of Katerina's mother?

It seems doubtful that political or criminal groups bent on vengeance would continue to target third or fourth generations for a criminal or terrorist act committed decades or centuries ago. Why would Agnes still be considered a threat to others?

Perhaps Agnes' forebears had power and influence in feudal Russia, and future generations of the family could still lay claim to political / financial fortune.
The helmet could represent a symbol of what was once a ruling and powerful family or is the symbol of a family's unrealized grand design for Russian ruling influence.

Or.....Dom and his interior designer just liked the print!
____________________________________________________________________
FROM: The National Gallery of Art

The Art of Power: Royal Armor and Portraits from Imperial Spain
Royal armor in the Renaissance was far more than protective equipment for the battlefield. Most often worn at court ceremonies and in parades, pageants, and jousting tournaments, it proclaimed the rulers' strength and power. Elaborately decorated with imagery drawn from history, mythology, or the Bible, armor symbolically presented emperors and kings as the new Caesar, the equal of Hercules and other ancient heroes, the defender of the faith, or the model of chivalry. Etched or engraved images of saints or the Virgin and Child asserted that the rulers enjoyed divine protection. Much more costly than portraits by the leading painters of the day, suits of royal armor are dazzling works of wearable sculpture that affirmed their owners' right to govern.

_______________________________________________________________________________
http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-weirdest-and-fiercest-helmets-from-the-age-of-armor-510686611

The ceremonial and parade helmets of Charles V

Filippo Negroli, 1533 May 5, 2016 at 3:52 PM

Big Badd Bazzer · 10/17/2016 10:28 am

While Kirk may have been able to elude Red (thru trickery & subterfuge) Red has been able to put a kibosh on Kirk's resources - and potential hiding places (admitted by the young female Kirk associate)
I haven't heard it stated but if Kirk needs a copious amount of blood to replace his infected blood - there might not be enough in a tiny baby. So either he waits until Agnes grows to a sufficient size - or he finds a way to utilize Liz.
I'm not a medical doctor but unless you can reproduce Agnes blood cells in a bio-lab I don't think she's viable for blood - yet! (I find it gross just typing these words)

Tabasko · 10/17/2016 11:10 am

Many interesting comments, lara1, Tuxie400, OP.
Trelliswires, thanks for that info. I am sure that piece of art was there for a reason.

BBB, I believe what Kirk wants to do is extract stem cells from a close relative in order to have some effect on his disease, and reduce his need for the large amounts of blood. I could be wrong there, though.

I agree with OP and others that there could be some twist to it we don't see coming. But I can't think of any ways Kirk would need Liz or Agnes without them being related. Maybe that will be the real problem, he will find out he isn't and then Agnes will be in real danger.

I tried running other scenarios through my head:
Tom is somehow related and that's why Kirk needs Agnes
Red and Kirk are related and they both know Red is really her bio dad.

But I couldn't get either of them to make sense.

Then I also realized Odette might not make sense as Kirk's daughter, because why not just use her?

Tuxie400 · 10/17/2016 2:11 pm

Tabasko - From what I have read about the stem cell transplants, siblings are the closest genetic matches. Chances of Parents and children matching is low but possible. I was thinking if Odette was his daughter, she might have already been tested and been found to be an unacceptable match. There are other people in the general population who might be matches, but it's a long shot.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (10/17/2016 2:12 pm)

Tabasko · 10/17/2016 2:21 pm

Thanks, Tux! That would make sense.

Colleen · 10/17/2016 3:20 pm

Hello Everyone! Haven’t been able to post lately but do keep up with reading.

Lara1 #103 – your comment “Kirk is blackmailing Liz, saying she can only have Agnes if she cuts Red out of her life” got me thinking. Is there a chance that Kirk wants Liz away from Red because Red and Liz are together dismantling some major project that Kirk is protecting? Of course Liz doesn’t know this because Red only tells her the bare minimum. Based on this theory, whatever the project is, Liz is vital to dismantling it. Once Red believed she died, he was done with his Blacklist, perhaps believing he couldn’t succeed without her collaboration. Or perhaps Liz would be the beneficiary of the project being dismantled.

Whatever the project, it could still tie in with Liz having blocked memories or being part of royalty.

Speaking of royalty, it turns out that Tsar Nicholas II had a mistress named Mathilde Kschessinskaya who was a ballerina. She changed her name to Maria (Masha) later in life when converted to Russian Orthodoxy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathilde_Kschessinska

Last edited by Colleen (10/17/2016 3:23 pm)

Honey West · 10/17/2016 3:54 pm

Well, it is possible for a person to have multiple DNA types present in their blood. I looked this up because I have a friend who had a bone marrow stem cell transplant for leukemia several years ago. This produced a chimera effect because the friend's blood cells are now being produced by the donor's marrow cells. So if you used a blood sample to test their DNA, it wouldn't match the DNA taken from any of their other tissue samples. From what I've read in the old days they used radiation and chemo to destroy the recipient's bone marrow and then replaced it with cells from a close match donor. Nowadays they don't always destroy all of the recipient's bone marrow cells and so they can have two types of DNA in their blood, their own, and the donor's. I've got a link here if you'd like to read more about it, because it has been an issue for crime scene investigators. But I knew about it because of the friend who experienced the chimera effect and told us all about it.
http://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask208

I wonder if Kirk had a transplant in the past that maybe has failed or was not 100% successful? If that's true he would have abnormal DNA test results if they used only a blood sample. You don't have to be a blood relative to be a match for a bone marrow (stem cell) transplant, but I suppose your chances are much higher if you have a rare blood type or something. There are extensive tests done to screen for matches. For more info you can check the bethematch.org website. Not sure how it works into things, but we have been shown that Red's blood type is B- and Kirk was receiving B+ red blood cells for his transfusions.

Tabasko · 10/17/2016 4:38 pm

Colleen #116: Hi!
This always has stuck in my mind since Alexander Kirk, Conclusion: Lawyer to Kirk "Justice Department will freeze all your American assets, billions of dollars. Your most important American asset will be lost."

Not sure if that is connected to this, but it stuck!

Honey West #117: Very interesting.

lara1 · 10/17/2016 4:58 pm

Honey West #117 - thank you for that article! I had read something about that recently but did not fully understand the science (it was an extract from a scientific journal that I found - over my head!). This article explains the issue/practicalities in a very concise way.

I can't help thinking that between the transfusions, Kirk's blood type being shown, bone marrow cell failure,stem cells and DNA testing, something is up, some kind of twist. It will be very interesting to see how Red reacts to the DNA test Liz has - whatever it is and whatever the "results". Interesting thought you have on whether or not Kirk may have had a (failed) bone marrow transplant at some earlier date. Roll on Thursday!

On another note, I read online someone's theory on the Kaplan situation. I don't normally read other sites much but the Kaplan thing has really got me guessing! Anyway, the person theorized that mountain man (I think his name is 'hunter") actually was sent by Red to do some sort of "loyalty test" involving Kaplan. Well its an intriguing theory and Red did do something like that with Niko - remember how he kind of set him up with Mr. Vargas as a "fake associate" of Berlin? I think its a longshot but an intriguing possibility and might explain some questions around the whole shooting scenario and aftermath. I am still going to try to see if there is some kind of contents in that cabin that might signal something other than "just" a survivalist living there. (And as someone mentioned in the comments above, could he really overwinter in that cabin? didn't seem so....)

The plot thickens!

Honey West · 10/17/2016 5:01 pm

Maybe Alexander Kirk really controls the Federal Reserve?

Tatiana · 10/17/2016 5:15 pm

Colleen wrote:
Is there a chance that Kirk wants Liz away from Red because Red and Liz are together dismantling some major project that Kirk is protecting?

That would substantiate Red's statement to Liz at her gravesite, "You think they are after you because of who I am, but they are after you because of who you are."
That didn't quite make sense to me even if it were true that Constantine was after her for her genetic material. I always had the sense there's more to it. I still think of Liz as being the key somehow, whether the "key" that perfectly fits some lock, and Red needs Liz for his final work, whatever that may be. Is the "key" imbedded in her memories? Is the "key" imbedded in her scar? her DNA? was she "programmed" to trigger a certain behavior? (as was suggested a few summers ago).

Tabasko "Your most important American asset will be lost", I forgot about that. We can assume it's Liz but what if it's something else? Something that only Liz could lead him to?

Lots of interesting ideas!