The Blacklist Refugees » The Post-Revelation Re-Watch Thread

Honey West · 11/14/2016 4:58 pm

Okay, I've started watching again from the beginning. I'm not going to binge-watch it but I should get pretty far through it before January 5th, I think. I've created this thread for any new discussion of re-watches since the Big Answer (sort of-lol!) was given to us.

The most interesting thing being that I think most of us jumped straight to Red being Liz's father almost right from the very start. Then they started throwing things at us to make us doubt it. Even to the point of introducing "Red never lies to Liz" and the famous "Are you my father? ...<long pause>....no." line.

Anyway, so far I've watched the Pilot and The Freelancer. Forgot how good the Pilot was all by itself. Even if you never watched another episode, the Pilot is pretty outstanding in how much is already there and in place to set up what follows. Both of those were written by Jon Bokenkamp and you can see how much he loved writing for Reddington, with his quips, quotes, and just plain fun. Of course we didn't yet know exactly what a violent man he really was and the contrast wasn't there quite yet, but we knew something was up.

But really, that little scene in the hotel when Liz stabbed Red with the pen really does set the stage for Liz's later transformation. She's furious with him, yet she is very cool and calm while she's telling him what he has to do, with the pen in his neck. He knows he can't move and it totally reminded me of when your cat grabs your hand with her claws. Red is not surprised by her action. Taken by surprise maybe, but not surprised. I think he even admired her for it. The apple not falling far from the tree, in spite of their long separation. And it is never mentioned again except in the next episode when Red makes the comment "What is it with you and pens in hotel rooms?"

Two episodes in and it's like watching them again with fresh eyes. And I really loved the old Red/Ressler stuff. I hope they do more of that in the future. Maybe now that they've gotten past some of the recent heavy stuff they can get back to some of the earlier dark humor. But then it's Red who provides most of the humor and he hasn't been too happy lately.

lara1 · 11/14/2016 5:53 pm

Honey West - one of my favorite lines in the whole series was when Red said to Liz, with a priceless look on his face and body language - "What is it with you and pens in hotel rooms?" LOL.....we got a glimpse of that wicked offbeat humor of Red's to which we were to be treated again and again.....

Last edited by lara1 (11/14/2016 5:57 pm)

lara1 · 11/14/2016 5:56 pm

I am still mulling over the "big reveal". the episode still hadn't been released through On Demand as of last night so I still haven't re-watched it. Need to reconcile "Red does not lie to Liz" with Red's coerced answer....
I'm making a list of things that need to line up in one way or another for it to be a true reveal.

I'm inclined to believe the reveal, but in order for it to make sense (haha), just puzzling through all of the other stuff......

Tuxie400 · 11/14/2016 6:53 pm

The last episode with its fork in the neck and syringe in the neck reminded me of those two pen-in-the neck scenes.

Honey West · 11/14/2016 7:52 pm

lara1 wrote:
I am still mulling over the "big reveal". the episode still hadn't been released through On Demand as of last night so I still haven't re-watched it. Need to reconcile "Red does not lie to Liz" with Red's coerced answer....
I'm making a list of things that need to line up in one way or another for it to be a true reveal.

I'm inclined to believe the reveal, but in order for it to make sense (haha), just puzzling through all of the other stuff......

I know what you mean, lara1! Then again, why on earth did he bring up Marrakesh right then? I know he was telling Kirk that he shouldn't be afraid of dying and all, but it seemed sort of odd to me. Red said: "Dying isn't so bad. I did it once in Marrakesh." And that's when Kirk decides that suffocation is the way to go because Red talks too much.
I don't know if I will get to The Courier tonight, but maybe in the next couple of days to see how he said that. I think there may be a clue there. And the writers keep telling us not to worry, stay with them and have faith, it will all make sense eventually.

Tuxie400, I think the writers like the image of being stabbed in the neck or something. There was also Fitch telling Red that he was a big pain in his neck, but he always liked him.

lara1 · 11/14/2016 8:33 pm

Honey West - not to mention Red with Frank and the stick in the neck! ha.

Re the Courier, do you remember what event caused Red to have Dembe dig up the envelope that Red burns? I know Red said he's now not so sure he ever wants Liz "to know" (know what, we don't know!)...but there was something that changed his mind about it all. Was it something in his interactions with Liz in that episode?

At the time I thought it was how the thing with the courier's "daughter" went sideways - he had taken the little girl from what seemed to be a violent father, though she came willingly, and raised her as his own. When she eventually finds out as an adult, she is upset and among other things, does not forgive him.

I thought that might have been an analogous situation with Red and Liz, that Red took her from an abusive father, but (whether or not Red is her real father) we now see that Kirk was in love with Katarina and maybe was not physically abusive? Or maybe that is just Kirk talking about his rosier memories only.....

And around we go! LOL

Last edited by lara1 (11/14/2016 8:47 pm)

Honey West · 11/14/2016 9:54 pm

"And around we go." LOL!
Actually you are thinking of The Caretaker. The Courier was that guy that couldn't feel pain and concealed various things under his skin. There was a young man that was kidnapped and buried for ransom, I think after they rescued him Red talked about Marrakesh. But I have to re-watch, because I'm pretty fuzzy about the details. I mean, I've only watched that episode about two or three times. LOL! But it was awhile ago. I think my next episode to watch is Wujing.

Yep, I had forgotten to add Red and the stick.

lara1 · 11/14/2016 10:00 pm

Honey West - LOL yeah two completely different episodes! I put that Marrakesh thing in my box of in the ground and buried references coming as it did in that episode with the guy buried alive with the oxygen. But yeah that was a curious reference and I don't remember the exact context either in which Red said it. I think its a good idea to refresh that and apply it back to the finale.

I wonder if there is any clue in Marrakesh?

Last edited by lara1 (11/14/2016 10:00 pm)

susmize13 · 11/15/2016 2:05 pm

Hi everyone. I just registered, so this is my first post. I'd like to throw out another possible theory about who Red really is. Could the real Red have been killed the night of the fire and really was Liz's father. This Red we know now could have been someone close to Katerina and had plastic surgery to take over as Reddington. Perhaps a brother to Kat. In the Bethesda apt. among the many Russian photos and icons is a picture of a mother/father/daughter/son. It's on the left hand side. If this new Red is Kat's brother, it explains alot. He wouldn't be lying to Liz if he said "no" when she asked the Daddy ?. He also would be privy to many things about Katerina's life - how she felt about being pregnant - where Dom was and the familiarity between them. He would also feel protective of Liz, he's her uncle and he could feel guilty about his sister's suicide. He may have gone with his sister the night of the fire, been there and rescued Lizzy, take her to Sam, perhaps another brother. It could also explain in the pilot the line "everything about me is a lie". There have been a number of references to plastic surgery. There was that Dr that said something to the effect how Red's face was holding up. Then there was Carla/Naomi. "You've changed" and the missing years after the 1990 disappearance. Whoever this person is was reinventing himself as Raymond Reddington. I too plan on going back to the beginning with fresh eyes. Perhaps this theory is a bunch of Hooey, but I'm going to see if I can fit other details into it.

Tuxie400 · 11/15/2016 2:18 pm

Welcome susmize13! We love to see the different theories, and yours is an interesting one. Thanks for posting yours. I hope you'll continue to contribute to the conversation.

Last edited by Tuxie400 (11/15/2016 2:34 pm)

Honey West · 11/15/2016 4:00 pm

Welcome to the group, susmize13! We always love new members posting to the discussions. In light of Red's Revelation, I decided we needed this thread for those doing another re-watch. I hope you've had a chance to check out some of the other discussion threads as we do a lot of crossovers between them, until someone says, hey, we need to separate that into its own. (grin)

Also, if you get a chance feel free to go back and check out our mothership site, The Blacklist Support Group. It's closed to new posts, but has a wealth of discussions as well as just a lot of good general information that we gathered there. In fact there's a very comprehensive Who's Your Daddy? Thread on there that you might find interesting. We've sort of revived it here, but the bulk is still over there. Sometimes we refer back to BSG discussions, so if you run into that happening, that's where the archives are. The old General Discussion and Theories page is also worth reading.

Anyway, I messed up my knee over the weekend and after exercise class this morning it's really hurting, so my plans for this afternoon are to try to stay off it, ice it and watch at least up to The Courier. We'll see how that goes! (whistling)

Tuxie400 · 11/15/2016 5:24 pm

Honey West and lara1 - I had forgotten about the stick in Frank's neck and Fitch's quote! The stabbed in the neck motif does quite bit of play. I wonder how it fits in to Red's back story.

Honey West - Sorry to hear about your pain in the knee. Rest and feel better!

The dying in Marrakech reference has come up twice. I not sure whether to think it's important to the puzzle, or if it's just a call back to the first season. There are so many things in the fourth season that mirror things in the first season.

lara1 · 11/15/2016 7:38 pm

suzmize13 - welcome. I too do not think Red is Red - although I hadn't considered that he might be a brother of Katarina - that is interesting. I was going for a brother of Red's. At this point I feel that we know more about Katarina's family than Red's, its hard to know how a brother of Red could fit in. Look forward to reading your future posts.

Honey West - sorry to hear about your knee. That's no joke - I hurt my knee about a year ago and it was not fun to say the least!

The dying in Marrakech is still a mystery to me. Its meant to tell us something - but what I don't know beyond it seems to fit in with Red having faked his death.....somehow.....

deadskie13 · 11/15/2016 9:40 pm

lara1 wrote:
Re the Courier, do you remember what event caused Red to have Dembe dig up the envelope that Red burns? I know Red said he's now not so sure he ever wants Liz "to know" (know what, we don't know!)...but there was something that changed his mind about it all. Was it something in his interactions with Liz in that episode?

Red burned the note after Liz went to see Velov, and she got the note saying her mother was still alive--she confronted Red and flew off the handle, and said he was right, that there are some things that cannot be forgiven.

And so he cashes in his "chit" :D finds the correct coffin, has Dembe dig it up, and then lights the note on fire. He tells Dembe something along the lines of how the contents were supposed to be delivered to Elizabeth upon his death, but now he's not so sure he ever wants her to know--and then Dembe comes back with that great line of, "Perhaps if the universe wants her to know, it will find a way to tell her." or something like that. ^-^

(But as Honey West pointed out, that's from the episode The Caretaker.)

Last edited by deadskie13 (11/15/2016 9:41 pm)

deadskie13 · 11/15/2016 9:43 pm

Hi susmize13! Usernames followed by 13 for the win! ^-^ Please write lots, and please write often--we love to hear all kinds of wonderful things here. :D

lara1 · 11/15/2016 9:52 pm

deadskie13 wrote:
lara1 wrote:
Re the Courier, do you remember what event caused Red to have Dembe dig up the envelope that Red burns? I know Red said he's now not so sure he ever wants Liz "to know" (know what, we don't know!)...but there was something that changed his mind about it all. Was it something in his interactions with Liz in that episode?
Red burned the note after Liz went to see Velov, and she got the note saying her mother was still alive--she confronted Red and flew off the handle, and said he was right, that there are some things that cannot be forgiven.

And so he cashes in his "chit" :D finds the correct coffin, has Dembe dig it up, and then lights the note on fire. He tells Dembe something along the lines of how the contents were supposed to be delivered to Elizabeth upon his death, but now he's not so sure he ever wants her to know--and then Dembe comes back with that great line of, "Perhaps if the universe wants her to know, it will find a way to tell her." or something like that. ^-^

(But as Honey West pointed out, that's from the episode The Caretaker.)

Thanks deadskie13. Yes, that was the episode where "some things can't be forgiven" was mentioned several times, by Red, by Velov, by Liz. So what did Red do that was unforgivable. Something unspeakable perhaps. maybe not. we don't know yet!

Eastcoast · 11/18/2016 1:26 am

My take on the re-watch,
It struck me that Tom and Dembe were there with the lady and Dr they brought somewhere in that lab when he had Red answer all those questions.
I have to wonder if Tom heard any of it?

Last edited by Eastcoast (11/18/2016 1:27 am)

susmize13 · 11/18/2016 11:45 am

Yes, Eastcoast. I wonder too. At the end of the ep when Red went to see Agnes. Red walked in and Tom said something like 'I guess it worked" Red walked right past him, then Tom said I'll take that as a thank you. Thank you for what?

Tuxie400 · 11/18/2016 11:57 am

Eastcoast and Susmize13 - I thought Tom and Dembe were with the Bockes woman too, but Honey West set me straight on that. Tom and Dembe handed off Kirk's doctor and Bockes in the same park where where they picked Red up. When I first watched, I thought they were in the black SUV, but when I rewatched I noticed they weren't.

lara1 · 11/18/2016 12:49 pm

I think that "so it worked then" by tom was a bit cryptic, but I think it just referred to the choice for Kirk to have Dr. Shaw save his life, and Tom helped in finding and ultimately delivering Dr. Shaw.