Hi, Laocoon! Good idea about the Takoma Park house destruction being to hide evidence. I really hadn't thought of it that way. Odd, because I've often thought of the blacklist itself as being Red cleaning up evidence of the past as one of the things he's been doing with it.

Agree, there is still a big missing piece regarding Liz/Masha. As far as I recall, Red has never directly referred to her as Masha.

I think Red's hat on the table was Liz hoping he would make it back. And if not it was a memento, but she wasn't going there yet. And only Red, Kirk, and the doctors know what Kirk put Red through. Liz has no idea what really happened between them.

But my most important unanswered question so far is, who is taking care of flat cat?

Laocoon #160 and Honey West #161.  I think that is a good idea about Tacoma Park House.  Maybe evidence that Red didn't want Liz to find.  although I do think he had an emotional connection there, via bubble girl reminiscence and the height chart that he tore the paneling away from the wall to look at.  He wanted to go back and look at all of that one more time, before destroying it forever.  And that music and the theme of it, slaughter of the innocents, in a way.

At the same time, if he really wanted to be rid of it, he probably could have bought out the owners long ago for multiple times the worth of the house.  He hadn't been there for a long time, and I do think it was painful to go back there.  But the timing of it makes me think it became important once he was back in Liz's life.  Or - it could have just been a plot device to give us historical and emotional background on Red.

 

Tuxie400 wrote:

lara1  - ..... 

Are Red's women red herrings? I do agree that Maddie's "trouser belt thing" doesn''t jibe with the mommy theory. Nor does his having affairs with the wives of associates. As for Carla/Naomi, Red seemed to care a lot about her, and it was obvious the two had shared history of some kind. If Red as Katarina is true, I'm not sure what relationship Naomi and Katarina had. Many of us have suspected Carla and Jennifer were a cover story, and we've always been mystified as to why Red didn't seem more concerned about Jennifer. We've also suspected Carla was an operative of some type because of her use of the chicken bone as a weapon. Carla and Naomi as Red's real family never rang true. For some reason when I think about this, Vanessa Cruz comes to mind. I'm starting to think she is very much a parallel to Katarina. Remember, she faked her suicide by taking her clothes off and walking into the ocean too. And she did it all to avenge the death of the one man she loved.
 

Tuxie400 - I was thinking about this myself.  I'm actually one of those who believes the Naomi family was not real and was a cover, but at the same time Red had some sort of relationship to her - maybe knew her for a long time - and because she was loyal and devoted, felt intensely protective of her.    He never seems very concerned about Jennifer, in my opinion, other than to locate her and ensure her "safety".  

At the same time, Naomi knows a lot about Red/Liz so I think he wanted them in his protection so he could control them and keep an eye on them.  

I thought, if Red is really Katarina, that Naomi might have been a sister or something but we don't hear from Dom's conversation that K had any siblings....and Naomi seemed to resemble Susan Hargrave more than "Katarina".

Its really intriguing.  I think some of Red's dialog about Katarina doesn't ring true if he is Katarina.  I think one would have to re-watch the series from the beginning with this theory in mind, plus and minus.

One thing I thought, that was on the DVD Season 3  deleted scenes:  Red and tom are talking and Tom thanks Red for saving Agnes - Red had asked Susan Hargrave to look out for Kirk.  Then Red kind of gives Tom a speech about how he has to change because as of now he's not equipped to raise a child.  then Red says something like, over the course of all these years, whenever he went on a mission, it didn't matter whether he ever came back or not.  and that empowered him.  He says Tom does not have this power because he has a child - he has to think about what he's doing because the child needs to come first.  I don't recall whether Red actually said he didn't have a child or strongly implied this.  So maybe then he can't be Katarina.  But he then he can't be Liz's father either.

then again, they cut that scene - so was it just superfluous or did they not want that info out there.  LOL

Well I've rambled a bit but bottom line is I think the mother theory is definitely possible, there's things though that don't fit it.  Yet, we know very little about Katarina.  In order for Red to be Katarina, all of what Red has done and the reasons for it have to apply to her.  (Like blowing up Takoma Park where he raised his family, or what he says.).  And the reason for the Blacklist, why Red surrendered himself to the FBI etc.  Not saying it can't be worked out, but there is a lot to consider.  Maybe homework for the holidays and series break!  

Look forward to any other things you find.

Edited to add:  personally, I very much see Red as Red or impster Red, but I'm intrigued by these new developments.  And what else Red could have said to Kirk.  Not to mention, if the two lizzzies theory works, and/or there are two girls, then the "Elizabeth is my daughter" by Red may mean something completely different.  LOL
But as I said I love digging into a good theory......

Last edited by lara1 (11/15/2016 12:26 pm)

I guess I have always figured that if Red couldn't find Jennifer then probably nobody else could either. So she was safe for now. But she will become unsafe if they decide they need her for the story.

The more I think about Constantin the more I think he was not part of Katerina's spy life at all, except where she was possibly using him and his position as her cover. Maybe she even really loved him. That's always possible. He loved her, that's obvious. And I also think that whatever he has said about Katarina is the truth, as far as he knew it. And also what he says about Red and Katarina is the truth, as he knows it and believes it. Whether it's The Truth or not, it doesn't matter as far as he is concerned, he believes what he has seen and been told. His revenge against Red was simply that, revenge,  against the person who he saw as having destroyed his family. Maybe the way it worked out, with the fulcrum and the fire and the exposure of his marriage as a sham to a KGB agent, also ruined his reputation and career and is something we will eventually learn. But by the end I was seeing Alexander Kirk more as a victim, than a villain. And I think maybe Red did too, and that's why he never put Kirk on his list or went after him. We know that he confronted Red at some point in the past, because of his comment about having the gun in his mouth but didn't pull the trigger, so it was  a physical, face to face, confrontation. Why did he let Red go? We may never know, or we may learn what happened as things play out.

Honey West 167 and Tuxie400 #168 - I am thinking that about Kirk too.  I'm thinking that he was not in the KGB, not in the spy business, and quite possibly was not at fire night nor knew much of what happened.  I think the Tom/Liz analogy is a good one.  Yes, more a victim than a villain.  I think his knowledge was limited and maybe that's why it was kind of a mirror image - his image of it.  Not the full story.  Only what Katatrina decided to tell him/deceive him with, perhaps.  Maybe Katarina portrayed Red as something that he wasn't - maybe bad, maybe forcing her hand (when he wasn't).  

Yes they never did get back to that gun in the mouth story.  And why did Kirk let Red go - maybe Katarina interceded, and yes, we may never know.

One thing that still puzzles me (apart from the journal) is that Red and Kaplan were so convinced that Liz was in great danger, yet in the end, she really wasn't.  Given what we now know about Kirk I'm not at all sure that he would have harmed Liz once he found out she was not his daughter.  It seems he did really care for her for those 4 years.  He sort of gave her a heartfelt farewell speech when he let her go.  And he seemed attached to Agnes (well when he was not threatening to jump off the roof with her.)  Maybe that's when Red realized, Kirk was not the man nor the threat he (Red) thought he was.  Kirk loved Katarina, same as Red (maybe).  That scene on the rooftop - seemed to me that Red changed his stance towards Kirk.  Very emotional pleading, Red had started to figure it out, perhaps.  How Kirk truly felt...

So now I wonder whether Red equally had only half of the picture - again the mirror image.  Maybe Katarina told him only half of the story or only what she wanted him to hear/know.  Maybe that is what his reaction was when listening to Kirk.  He saw a different person from what Katarina talked about.  I wrote the other day about how there have been hints dropped through the series - the various spousal abuse stories - that perhaps Katarina's husband abused her.  Who knows, maybe that is what she told Red.  That Konstantin was mad, bad and dangerous to know.  Lies perhaps to keep Red in the game?  And maybe that's what Red fully realized when he listened to Kirk speak in that last scene..

Who knows but hey, its possible!    Its interesting that each of them thought the other the villain, the horrible monster.  And neither was, in the end.....

Last edited by lara1 (11/15/2016 7:44 pm)

lara1 - I remember a long time ago someone on the Blacklist Support Group suggested that the home movies were on a format too old to be of Reddington's child and proposed the child was actually Katarina. Could that be, and could ballerina girl be a memory of Katarina herself? It makes my head hurt too.

Tuxie400 wrote:

lara1 - I remember a long time ago someone on the Blacklist Support Group suggested that the home movies were on a format too old to be of Reddington's child and proposed the child was actually Katarina. Could that be, and could ballerina girl be a memory of Katarina herself? It makes my head hurt too.

I don't know if I can be of much help, but I actually work in an old school specialty print photo shop, with a studio and chemicals and film processor and such.  And, we handle anything and everything from 110 to 126 to 35mm film, to VHS tapes and slides--in addition to the whole digital deal with cellphones and flash drives, etc....At any rate, we even do reels to DVD off-site, which include 8mm.  And, if I'm not mistaken, that looked to be the width size of Bubble Girl's film.  

That being said, from the best I can tell, there are two groups of people:  those who latch onto new technology the second it appears, and then those of us who hold onto the old ways as long as possible--only reluctantly moving on, when we have to, but not a second sooner.  Given as such, VHS tapes were the next step up from 8mm, and they became popular in the 80s--but that doesn't mean everyone stopped using the old reels overnight; people were still using 8mm up to the mid to late 80s, on a somewhat regular basis, based on what I've seen turned in.  Luddites, unite!  ^-^ 

And, if you go by Red's nostalgia of liking "old and decrepit" things (without re-watching the events after Leonard Caul, I believe that's what he told Lizzy, in reference to the possessions at his flat)--along with him being somewhat of a Luddite--I think it's quite possible he was still playing around with 8mm in the right time frame for the footage to be of his daughter.  :D

so now I am wrestling with a different issue - in reading the transcript for the second half of episode 4.08, Kirk does most of the talking.  He relays how red had the affair etc (which he also told liz in an earlier episode).    Red never actually acknowledges that (reminds me a bit of how when Liz talks and she has the wrong idea but Red is fine with her keeping that idea and doesn't correct her, or acknowledge whether its right or wrong).
Red never actually talks about an affair, only that he was a target.  Of course if there was no affair, there was no Masha (not with Red in any event) which brings us back to Elizabeth is my daughter (not Masha).  around we go.

But my question is why would Red have an affair, would it not be against his moral code?  He seems to value loyalty above all else, and does not look favorably upon infidelity.  So, Red is married but has an affair?  Maybe that was a lie that Katarina told Konstantin, for whatever reason.  Maybe Red was set up and it was someone else.  Maybe Red is protecting someone else.

Of course anything is possible, any plot line, its left open.  The common consensus I think is that Red and Katarina did have an affair.

Just wondering if anyone else has considered this conflict between Red's moral code and an affair with Katarina...... 

Honey West wrote:

You know, up until all this talk of Red being Katarina's assignment I always thought that Katarina had been Red's assignment. That he was targeting her.
I wonder?

Honey West - that is interesting.  maybe one or both of them were double agents - I think some of us thought that before, too.  She was a target to see which side of the fence her loyalties were.  Maybe to try to turn her.
Well if he was doing a job maybe that's why we see Red having some empathy for Kirk

Just when I think something is settled, and I think about it, its not.  Or, maybe not.  LOL  

deadskie13 - You are right that Red wouldn't be one to latch on to new technology. So the 8 mm movies do fit with the character.